VandanaDhAriNi

Rāga related discussions
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rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

Recently I heard a krithi Sudha MadhooryA , a GNB krithi in the RAgam vandanaDhArini . Can you post the list of krithis/varnams along with the composer's name in this RAgam ??.

Any more insights like whether this rAgam is ancient or a fairly new raga ,any musician who is well known to have rendered this RAga etc is well appreciated.???

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

rajeshnat

these are the ones i'm aware of:

Avai arindu pesha vendum MM Dandapani Desikar
sonnadai ceydida-Mayuram Viswanatha Sastry

rbharath
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Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 10:50

Post by rbharath »

There is a varnam in vandanadArini composed by Prof S R Janakiraman which starts as 'bhUlOka nArada muni...' in praise of Sadguru Tyagaraja

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Post by rajeshnat »

Meena
I was mistaken till your post that GNB was the composer of the famous Sonnadai Seidhida sahasama . Also never knew, the pallavi of the GNB/MLV famous tukkada is in VandanaDhAriNi.Tx

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Post by Lakshman »

Songs in vandanadhariNi

Anbu sheivai maname adanal amaidiyum-Adi-K.S.Krishnamurti
Avai arindu pesha vendum arignyar-Rupaka-Dandapani Deshikar
Ayyar enai aluginrar arutperum jyotiyinar (a)-Adi-Ramalingasvami
Devi nan unnai sharan adainden-?-K.R.Radhakrishnan
Devi nityam bhavayamyanisham kalatitam-Adi-Kollegal R.Subramaniam
Gauripate pashupate kripanidhe kailasapate-Adi-S.Maralingam
Idukku tunaiyai-Adi-V.S.Gomatishankara Iyer
Ini agilum maname ayyanai ni ninaiyayo diname-Adi-Vedanayakam Pillai
Maname unakk-hitamayoru vartai-Rupaka-Gopalakrishna Bharati
Muruganai ninai-Adi-Minakshisuta
Muruganin namattai parugiduvai nanje mudu marai-Adi-C.V.Padmanabhan
Nandavadana virajite-?-Bangalore S.Mukund
Pahi rama-Rupaka-Bangalore S.Mukund
Sarathiyai varuvaye kanna shamar tannile-Adi-Periasami Tooran
Sarva devatmakam vande sarvada-Adi-C.S.Shivaramakrishna Bhagavatar
Shri maha lakshmim-Rupaka-R.K.Suryanarayana
Sudha madhurya bhashini-Adi-G.N.Balasubramaniam
Varam taruvai ni varalakshmiye-Adi-Ashok R.Madhav

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

shankar

yes i have it in my notes Prof. SRJ has composed a tana varna, but i do not have any details.


shankar/Lji
Do u have the text for Prof SRJ tana varam? thanks

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Meena,
There for a moment I thought that I had it...but no :(
Sorry!
I will ask Ramji if he does have the text or maybe even a track...if Lji doesn't have it in his khazAnA.
Ravi

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Actually, Rohin and Ashwin may also have that info in addition to Ramji.
Ravi

Ashwin
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 23:48

Post by Ashwin »

The sAhitya for the varnam is as follows:

Pallavi

bhUlOka nAradamunivarya
sAlokAdi padavi svArdhAnubhava mUrtti

Anupallavi

I lOkamuna mAnava avatAruDai
ihapara sAdanalanu bOdhincina sadguru mUrtti

caraNam

sangIta kOvida SRI tyAgarAjam satatam bhajEham

The varnam has five caraNasvarAs and is composed in khanDa tRputa tALam. I'll see if I can find a clip!

Ashwin

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

ashwin
thanks a lot :)

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Hi,
Here is a track that I got from Ramji (davalangi) of Prof SRJ singing this varNam - I assume the accompanying singers are Ashwin/Rohin...
http://rapidshare.de/files/20113234/01. ... i.mp3.html

THANKS RAMJI!
Ravi

meena
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Joined: 21 May 2005, 13:57

Post by meena »

shankar/ramji/ashwin & rohin

thanks a lot :)

Ashwin
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Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 23:48

Post by Ashwin »

I assume the accompanying singers are Ashwin/Rohin...
Thanks for the link Ravi - actually the accompanying singer is K. Sriram, SRJ Mama's student of many years.

Ashwin

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Post by rshankar »

Ashwin,
Thanks for the info on the accompanying singer.
All thanks to Ramji's and Prof SRJ's generosity!
Ravi

mohan
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 16:52

Post by mohan »

Just for completeness in this thread, the scale of this raga is

S R2 M2 P D2 S
S D2 P M2 R2 S

It is a janya of the 65th Melakartha, (mecha)Kalyani.

thanjavur

Post by thanjavur »

The 5th and last song in this zip file,

http://www.sangeethamshare.org/sundaram ... 202004.zip

is a 18 min Sudha Madhurya Bashini.

Who is the singer accompanying Sudha Ragunathan?
Is it her disciple Sangeetha Swaminathan?

HarishankarK
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Joined: 27 Oct 2007, 11:55

Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by HarishankarK »

Is this ragam really janya of Kalyani?
It sounds a bit like ragam Saraswathi also-wouldn't it be under Vachaspathi??

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by Ranganayaki »

The only difference between Vachaspati and Kalyani is the Ni. V has N2, and K, N3.

This raga, being without the Ni, may be classified as a Janya of either (both).

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by shankarank »

Based on first rAgA principle, it would be vacaspati. But vacaspati might not have gotten attention in this case as a prominent rAgA then? Also an absent Ni would put it under vacaspati as N2 is not a significant position in a M2 driven rAgA.

oh well, this janya concept is a cataloging concept to preserve oral memory so, people can remember what this rAgA might have been made of, should this be forgotten and all of internet vanishes!

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by Ranganayaki »

This scale can be said to be the prati-madhyama version of Suddha Saveri. The scale is immediately understood.

The first raga “principle” - just a rumor 🙂! It’s ok to follow it, but it’s not an established convention.

It is more efficient to say a raga is a janya of Kalyani. Most people know Kalyani, but far fewer people know Vachaspati. But that’s an advantage over the first raga principle.

But as a matter of fact, the raga is equally a janya of both because there is in general no real relationship between janyas and melas beyond the scales.

shankarank
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by shankarank »

Well that rule is used to explain mOhanam from Harikambodhi etc. and this was stated by SrI T.K Govinda Rao in a symposium @ Cleveland - about year 2000 or so. But priority could be given to prominent rAgAs and suddha madyama ones. And of course vivadis would be shunned even where applicable.

Ranganayaki
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 17 Aug 2020, 11:21 Well that rule is used to explain mOhanam from Harikambodhi etc. and this was stated by SrI T.K Govinda Rao in a symposium @ Cleveland - about year 2000 or so. But priority could be given to prominent rAgAs and suddha madyama ones.
Explain Mohanam from Harikambhoji? You mean explain the relationship of the MohanAm scale to Harikambhoji ? But it’s not because of the rule, but because it is true! It’s an elementary fact, so what was the point of bringing it to a symposium? Was it about the first raga “principle?”

Mohanam is also said to be a janya of Shankarabharanam and Kalyani . You must have heard that. Now, this is rarely expressed, but it is also a janya of Vachaspati. But of course, V is the least well-known of the four.
And of course vivadis would be shunned even where applicable.
Gambheeranattai is said to be a janya of Chalanattai, while it could be said to be a janya of either Mayamalavagowla or Shankarabharanam.

shankarank
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by shankarank »

For Mohanam, I have not heard SankarAbharaNam mentioned , but one musician made a case for reassigning it to KalyANi. Which means it was just assigned to Harikambodhi being just the first raga in sequence that qualifies.

As regards the gambeeranATA assigned to chalanAtA , I believe that is a remnant of asampURNA mela system where vivadi is "managed". GambIra nATTai being a mallari rAga has a longer history than the sampURNa mElam. We will need more stronger example.

Ranganayaki
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 18 Aug 2020, 12:09 For Mohanam, I have not heard SankarAbharaNam mentioned
!!!!!!!!

but one musician made a case for reassigning it to KalyANi.
You keep citing vague examples with no particulars.
As regards the gambeeranATA assigned to chalanAtA , I believe that is a remnant of asampURNA mela system where vivadi is "managed". GambIra nATTai being a mallari rAga has a longer history than the sampURNa mElam. We will need more stronger example.
[/quote]

A stronger example for what purpose?
Managing a vivadi has nothing to do with this classification. Gambheera Nattai has no vivadi swaras.

There is no agreement in carnatic music on even what a melakarta is, sampoorna or asampoorna.. you are being dogmatic over something that was invented probably about twenty ago if I am not mistaken. It is just an artificial system and the first raga idea is just that - an idea. You can use it, if it is convenient for you. But if you insist that the other possibilities are not janakas to a particular janya, well, it’s your loss - in breadth of perspective.

shankarank
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by shankarank »

I am not being dogmatic about first rAga! It is a reason given out, and it must have been said before so people passed it on. Don't think it was just pulled out of thin air 20 years ago.

As regards vivadi being parent, just checked rEvagupti. It is classified in publications as janya of 15 - mayamalava Gaula, not gayakapriya or vakulabharaNam. So when it comes to vivadi, the first ragam rule does not apply looks like.

ChalanATA of the old asampURna system is a harbinger of nATa - a tAnam worthy rAga. In the sampURNa system I believe, they were actually trying to create "rAgams" not just note sequences.

Hence people would not have thought of it as vivadi, since it was handled in prayOgams. The classification of gambhira nATA then would have been there since asampUrna times and later into sampUrna when that becomes a full vivAdi mela.

Ranganayaki
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 20 Aug 2020, 11:46 I am not being dogmatic about first rAga!
Ok.. Then are you willing to say that Mohanam is a janya of Shankarabharanam?

Are you willing to say that it is a equally janya of Vachaspati or KAlyani?

Are you willing to say that you like the first raga principle and you choose to follow it for the sake of consistency or for any other reason of your own, and that other people may not follow it and they aren’t wrong?

If you are able to answer “yes” to yourself, in your heart, to all three questions (really the third, the other two are just examples), then you are not being dogmatic about it.

I’m not asking you to tell us out loud.

shankarank
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Re: VandanaDhAriNi

Post by shankarank »

If you want to know what I will agree or accept, I don't see much value in janaka-janya relation based on what those words actually imply, given the way the rAgAs have been classified. My stand is, if it is for cataloging, any one works better than the other.

As a samparadaya, from two distinct sources I was given Harikambodhi as parent of Mohanam. When pressed for reasoning the first raga as a convention ( if you think rule sounds dogmatic!) was cited.

Gurus, when introducing a rAgA to a student, will mostly uniformly cite one of the melas as parent for any janya rAga, as that is how the sampradaya is. What else could be technically valid is a separate issue.

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