Dwimadhyama ragas

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srigudi
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 22:33

Post by srigudi »

Can someone enlighten me on Dwimadhyama ragas that late Sri.S.Kalyanaraman once explored ?

I am a newbee here so if this has been discussed already, pl. bear with me (or better yet, point me there).

Thanks

balusatya
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Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 17:17

Post by balusatya »

* I remember In MA he presented accompanied by Meera Sivaramakrishnan.(year donot remember).
* It was an effort on his part to have come out nicely with an array of kritis in those raghas besides having made the violinist to master the nuances.( I think the composer- could it be D.Pattammal?)
* It was not well appreciated by senior vidwans present.One SKN(not a SKN @ that time) remarked" Some like veg, somelike non veg- Please do not mix both"
* TSK evidently hurt by the response withdrew without waiting for the final impressions of the President of the conference of that year.
*One has to admit the dwimadhyama raghas meant for research are not comfortable/pleasing to the ears after fully granting the fact of scholarly presentation by the stalwart.He is quoted to have succesfully presented this concept elsewhere in India/abroad.
*One more suggestion that came up was that instead of dwimadyamas in both arohana&avarohana an array of raghas can be derived by placing suddha madhyamam in arohana ,Pradhimadhyama in avarohana and vice versa in the process another 72+72 neo(near) melakartharaghas !

srigudi
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 22:33

Post by srigudi »

Thank you very much.

I agree with your assessment reg. research vs pleasing to the ears. But some of the regular melakartas themselves fall into that category.

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

Before branding dvi-madhyama rAgasa as not pleasing to ears, one should listen to renditions of (hindUstAni) lalit IMHO..

-Ramakriya

balusatya
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Joined: 13 Dec 2007, 17:17

Post by balusatya »

I will try to change my bias and listen .Thanks Ramakriya.

srigudi
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Joined: 17 Apr 2008, 22:33

Post by srigudi »

ramakriya wrote:Before branding dvi-madhyama rAgasa as not pleasing to ears, one should listen to renditions of (hindUstAni) lalit IMHO..

-Ramakriya
I think the vakra prayogas will make it sound pleasing. The scale SRGMMDNS SNDMMGRS , ie. without panchamam and non-vakra ascent and descent would make it hard to sing (and listen) unless you take a halt at M1.

Haven't heard much Lalit (except the film song Tu Hai Mera Prem Devta) ... Isn't Lalit close to Panchama murchana of Shubapantuvarali ?

In many Dwimadhyama ragas, a tonic shift to M1 will lead to "normal" ragas and hence be pleasing :)

matterwaves
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Joined: 24 Aug 2007, 18:26

Post by matterwaves »

Sirs,
How about the the magical 'Nand' or Yamuna Kalyani. Its absolutely captivating. I have also heard Manasi Prasad once sing a raga which she announed as 'Mohini', employing the two madhayamas. I dont remember what kriti she sang though
Last edited by matterwaves on 22 Apr 2008, 11:18, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

How about Hamir KalyaNi?

mohan
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Post by mohan »

There is some reference to this towards the end of the following article http://www.carnaticcorner.com/articles/ ... rithis.htm

I vaguely remember Sri TSK giving a lec-dem about dwi-madhyama ragas in Australia more than 20 years back.

vidya
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 23:26

Post by vidya »

SK's lecdem : http://www.sendspace.com/file/v8lwj2

One of the few pieces of music I go back and listen for the sheer musical exploration of it, thanks to Kartik who sent this a long while back.

One of the other things in Dvimadhyama ragas that interests me is this: (Atleast theoritically ) each dvimadhyama raga can have two identities.
Cases like mArgadEshi where Shuddha Madhyama is stronger and the prati madhyama is brought in as the accidental. And then the other group with HamIr etc have Shuddha madhyama as the add-on.

I am curious to know how these same ragas would sound with the reverse of these characteristics. ie MargaDeshi sung with pratiMadhyama as primary and add shuddha madhyama in minor doses and same with the other group.
Last edited by vidya on 22 Apr 2008, 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Post by cmlover »

Thanks Vidya
Very illuminating. I plan to request Ramraj to compose some nice kritis based on these ideas....

ramakriya
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 02:05

Post by ramakriya »

IMO, dvimadhyama rAgas like lalit and mangaLakaishiki (or those proposed by Sri SK) fall into a different category (and create a totally different mood) than rAgasa like gouLIpantu / hamIr kalyANi /bEhAg / sAranga etc.

The former have always M1M2 prayoga (consecutive 2 madhyamas) while the rAgas of the latter group don't have M1M2 or M2M1 all the time (even if it might occur sometime), and one occurs merely as a bhAshAnga swara.

-Ramakriya

Jigyaasa
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Joined: 16 May 2006, 14:04

Post by Jigyaasa »

Could somebody who has the lecdem pls reupload it? The link provided by vidya has expired...

devi
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 18:16

Post by devi »

Jigyaasa wrote:Could somebody who has the lecdem pls reupload it? The link provided by vidya has expired...
Could some one please re-upload the lec dem ? Thank you!

ragam-talam
Posts: 1896
Joined: 28 Sep 2006, 02:15

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by ragam-talam »

vidya (or someone else):
could you re-upload the SK lec-dem on dwimadhyama ragas please (mentioned in post #10 in this thread). Many thanks.

mahavishnu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by mahavishnu »

I am hoping that the recent discussion on SKR's music will revive interest in this topic.

Here's a renewed request... does anyone still have the SKR's MMA demo on dwimadhyama ragas? Perhaps vidwan Sri Sanjeev has other recordings of SKR that he could upload for educational purposes...

rajeshnat
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by rajeshnat »

sanvenk78 (violinist V Sanjeev) wrote :
For those of you who want to know the Dwi Madhyama Panchama Varja ragam names, here they are..

Kanakasri
Rathnasri
Ganasri
Vanasri
Manasri
Thanasri
Sunadasri
Hanumasri
Dhensri
Natakasri
Kokilasri
Roopasri
Gayakasri
Vakulasri
Mayasri
Chakrasri
Suryasri
Hatasri
Jhankarasri
Natasri
Kiranasri
Karasri
Gowrisri
Varunasri
Maarasri
Charusri
Sarasri
Harisri
Dheerasri
Nagasri
Yagasri
Ragasri
Gangasri
Vaagasri
Soolasri
Chalasri

This is the concept introduced by SKR

For all the first 36 ragams in the 72 melakartha, the prathi madhyamam is added and the panchama is omitted. This becomes the Dwi Madhyama Panchama Varja Melam.

V Sanjeev

sruthi
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by sruthi »

Surely there are also non-mela ragas with dwimadhyama notes?

arvindt
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Joined: 04 Jan 2007, 09:35

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by arvindt »

I second mahavishnu's request for a recording of the lecdem if any one has it. It
sounds like it would an amazing listen!

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by SrinathK »

Sindhubhairavi and yamuna kalyani also use both madhyamas. I have heard Suryaprakash sing suryashree once in concert and it sounded very novel. Another dwimadhyama raga is HM paras. A version of rAmakali also used both madhyamas.

Behag also uses both madhyamas as well. Sometimes even in sequence on a descent.

Beyond madhyamas there are ragas that also use 2 or more variants of other notes like pahadi, modern khamas, bhairavi, punnagavarali, modern ghanta, asAveri, even old sAveri, mEgh, mishra sivaranjani, brindAvani sArang, dwijAvanti, kAmbhOji, senchuruTTi, Ananda bhairavi, Old sahAnA, Ahiri, old saurAshtram and old bhairavam, modern kApi and dEsh. It just goes on...

Historically such tunes are inspired by folk music where the rules are less rigid, lakshya dominates and the emphasis is more on the impact created by a tune and its variations, and the ability to express contrasting moods, which can eventually grow and settle into a distinct raga.

As to people who throw mud at these attempts, such people have always been doing this all the time under the garb of being traditional while actually violating so many traditions themselves. :lol:

Such innovations would attract less controversy and more interest elsewhere than in the traditional (synonym for often rigid minded actually :twisted:) strongholds of CM.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 06 May 2020, 12:05
Historically such tunes are inspired by folk music where the rules are less rigid, lakshya dominates and the emphasis is more on the impact created by a tune and its variations, and the ability to express contrasting moods, which can eventually grow and settle into a distinct raga.

As to people who throw mud at these attempts, such people have always been doing this all the time under the garb of being traditional while actually violating so many traditions themselves. :lol:

Such innovations would attract less controversy and more interest elsewhere than in the traditional (synonym for often rigid minded actually :twisted:) strongholds of CM.
Which attempts, coz your post seems to mention only ragas that have existed for ages! And I’ve never heard of any mud-throwing over this topic or controversies over this! Can you cite a couple that you remember?

SrinathK
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by SrinathK »

The last line is a general statement at the attitude taken to innovating here vs elsewhere. Do not worry, I am not including our lot in that list. :mrgreen:

Oh yes, TSK got backhanded jibes for his efforts, including when he tried to present them at the MA. Earlier they were doing that for vivadi ragas, and dwi madhyama ragas are a particularly extreme case of vivadi. However this attitude does not seem to exist for the ragas that are already in vogue and use both madhyamas or more than one variation of some other note - that was what I observed. Maybe it is because those ragas are more organic and very clever at hiding the "vivadi feel"?

In the particular case of vivadi ragas, quite a few kritis have been changed into non-vivadi versions. Apparently vivadi dosham is a tradition, but change is not. :lol:

In CM there is a bad habit of couching covert changes and innovations under the garb of tradition and parampara while direct, overt attempts at innovating are criticized. Some are supportive of innovation, others make some really nasty remarks in private (and many of those have no idea about the history of their traditions).

It takes a lot of time and effort to get even one innovative idea to succeed in any field, and so all ideas might not get the same spotlight down the road. But genuine innovative spirit should not be frowned on.

Now coming to the 36 dwi madhyama ragas, actually all these 36 scales can be derived from graha bhedams on the 72 melas.

As an example, suryashree can be derived by graha bhedam on kanakAngi, dheerashree on ratnAngi, chakrashree on mAyAmALavagauLa. The reverse is true, by graha bhedam on the dwimadhyamas, you get the usual mElas. So they may be considered as transposed versions of the mElas.

This shruti bhedam relationship has some side effects. It means chakrashree will sound exactly like nAdanAmakriya in madhyama sruti till you hear the actual swaras being sung. And so it goes for the rest. That can sound alien to our ears at first, but it doesn't take long to get used to it.

Speaking of graha bhedam, in the past GNB's attempts at graha bhedam had resulted in enough controversy amongst fellow musicians.... now you realize why I said that?

This dwi madhyama raga effort nearly spawned the attempt to combine shuddha and prati madhyama scales into another 72 mixed mela set. That would have been interesting, but it never really took off unfortunately.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 12 May 2020, 08:49 The last line is a general statement at the attitude taken to innovating here vs elsewhere.
“These attempts” and “such innovations” don’t sound like general statements about attitudes to innovating. At best it sounds like a generalization drawn after referring to some specific controversies.
Do not worry, I am not including our lot in that list. :mrgreen:
I had thought there had been academic controversies over dwimadhyama among artists and musicologists.
Oh yes, TSK got backhanded jibes for his efforts, including when he tried to present them at the MA. Earlier they were doing that for vivadi ragas, and dwi madhyama ragas are a particularly extreme case of vivadi.
This is what I was asking about. Who, where, when. Could you please offer details? Could you be more specific?

narayara000
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by narayara000 »

Can someone please post the lec-dem?

MadhavRayaprolu
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

Check out Shuddha Sarang of HM. One of the sweetest ragas employing both Ms and they fit so naturally. NSRmP M-RS (m is the higher madhyamam).

kanniks
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by kanniks »

Dvi madhyama ragas - New Composition

Sharing a new composition in the Dvimadhyama Raga Sara(sa)Sri (Melam 27 in the scheme of 36 Dvi Madhyama - Panchama Varja Scales envisioned by TSK). - corresponding to the sarasangi/latangi pair of ragas without the panchamam.

This rupaka tala kriti is inspired by Dikshitar and the dhrupad compositional genre. I wrote this in August this year; performed by Lalit Subramanian (Cleveland OH) and Harsha Nagarajan (Los Alamos). We premiered this song at the recent Navaratri Concert held online by IITMAA.

Sharing it here on the eve of Sharad Purnima (the Navaratri energy is still on for all of this paksha until the full moon!).
Would love to hear feedback!

Here is the Youtube Link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZ88on3jrww

( #dwimadhyama, #dvimadhyama, #TSK, #latangi, #sarasangi, #panchamavarja, #lalitamba )
Last edited by kanniks on 31 Oct 2020, 06:25, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by rajeshnat »

kanniks wrote: 30 Oct 2020, 22:06 Sharing a new composition in the Dvimadhyama Raga SarasaSri (Melam 27 in the scheme of 36 Dvi Madhyama - Panchama Varja Scales envisioned by TSK).
Is that not be supposed to be just called SaraSri instead of SarasaSri (melam 27 is Sarasangi yes) . That is what V Sanjeev the violinist wrote in 2011 refer his post which i have posted (#17)

Ranganayaki
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by Ranganayaki »

kanniks wrote: 30 Oct 2020, 22:06Would love to hear feedback!
Instantly arresting, I enjoyed listening ! Very nice, congratulations!!

Was it well received at the IITM premiere?

kanniks
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Joined: 09 Feb 2011, 05:00

Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by kanniks »

Thank you so much.
Yes, it was received very well.

shankarank
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Re: Dwimadhyama ragas

Post by shankarank »

Go after karaharapriya, to rule that it is not a rAgAm as we even know rAgAms now! If a major pillar falls, everything falls after that.

SankarabharaNam - already s-d-p. N2 is present as heard recently from some vINA mucicologists. KalyANi - there is yaman lurking up there north. Gamakas are camouflaging. And It was Prof SRJ used it's cycle progression to come back to M1 or some other cycle to reach M2 to say in some grAma system, dvimadyama rAgAs were known! That is the PSS sabha lecture.

tODi is agnostic of it's svarasthanas!

If you count all that out, there aren't many mELas known as major rAgAs left - that are pure tradition! Actually none. What is left? MMG, PantuvarALi, kIravANI, its M2 cousin - first two appetizers at best.

That leaves Shanmugapriya as the lone warrior! SrI tyAgarAjA composed one kriti - for all his sampURNatvam!

The 72 - sampuRNa system is rational, but not scientific - like the new style of tamizh writing shorn of the curly beauty of NAi in vINAi , shaped like vINAi. Rational thinkers started somewhere too early.

Even the expression for pentatonic - auDava is artistic - and not rational!

meerag56
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Joined: 10 Oct 2017, 20:25

Re: SK's lecdem

Post by meerag56 »

vidya wrote: 22 Apr 2008, 19:29 SK's lecdem : http://www.sendspace.com/file/v8lwj2

One of the few pieces of music I go back and listen for the sheer musical exploration of it, thanks to Kartik who sent this a long while back.

One of the other things in Dvimadhyama ragas that interests me is this: (Atleast theoritically ) each dvimadhyama raga can have two identities.
Cases like mArgadEshi where Shuddha Madhyama is stronger and the prati madhyama is brought in as the accidental. And then the other group with HamIr etc have Shuddha madhyama as the add-on.

I am curious to know how these same ragas would sound with the reverse of these characteristics. ie MargaDeshi sung with pratiMadhyama as primary and add shuddha madhyama in minor doses and same with the other group.

Does someone have the link?

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