dEsiya tODi - old and new

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SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

dEsiya tODi is one of the old ones whose trail goes all the way back to Purandaradasa. The more knowledgeable among us will recognize the name because Thyagaraja Swamigal's very first composition was in dEsiya tODi.

This rAgA existed in its original form during the time of the Trinity, although today, it might very well be the country cousin of hindustAni bhairavi & sindhubhairavi (or probably a co-progenitor of sindhubhairavi itself?). Today this raga has been almost totally eclipsed by sindhubhairavi to that point where you would never have known it existed unless someone told you.

Let's first look at the version that exists today. Which goes like this :
Aro: S G2 M1 P D1 N2 S
Avaro: S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S

And so presenting Thyagaraja's first composition, a very rare item - namO namO rAghavAya - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T2fQUEEZag (the keertanam has many more charanams)

Well, some versions can be very different : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKrOcI9nELM - Like this
Or this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVq2acvsUwY - by UKB

These versions essentially are sindhubhairavi without all those extra major notes.

But in the old manuscripts of Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar, the rAgA is actually much closer to modern tODi and punnAgavarALi and the tune is also totally different. Credit to Dr. T R Aravindhan for bringing this one out :

So here's what probably comes closest to how dEsiya tODi used to be in those days : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3fvepRod4Fc - this keertanam is literally composed on a single melodic line within a small range of notes and it is something special.

Some of the kritis of Thyagaraja that are now being sung in tODi were originally in dEsiya tODi. Subbaraya Shastri has also composed in this rAgA, as have other disciples of Thyagaraja like Veena Kuppier. Gopalakrishna Bharati's vazhi maraittirukkudE was also originally in dEsiya tODi (now-a-days it is sung in either tODi or nATakurinji).

There isn't any more information on this raga out there. So ends my quest to retrace a lost raga, and I'm grateful at least this much still survives.

PS : Some call this rAgA by the name dEsika tODi.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

SrinathK wrote: 29 May 2019, 22:48 dEsiya tODi is one of the old ones whose trail goes all the way back to Purandaradasa. The more knowledgeable among us will recognize the name because Thyagaraja Swamigal's very first composition was in dEsiya tODi.

This rAgA existed in its original form during the time of the Trinity, although today, it might very well be the country cousin of hindustAni bhairavi & sindhubhairavi (or probably a co-progenitor of sindhubhairavi itself?). Today this raga has been almost totally eclipsed by sindhubhairavi to that point where you would never have known it existed unless someone told you...............(etc)
---------------------------
Srinathk
--------
As a fan of Hindusthani Bairavi and our SindhuBairavi since my childhood, I found this post very interesting. ( some rather primitive doubts and observations ,follow, howver). 1) In my schooldays, the music director duo Shankar/Jaikishan had arrived at the Hindi film music world with a series of great music scores for RK films ( that was around 1948) and many if not most of the tunes were sung by the angelic,newly arrived Lata. SJ's favourite ragam was Hindusthani Bairavi ( the same parent scale as Todi in CM...)CRamachandra for his part gave some immortal tunes sung by Lata in the same ragam. ( Yasmin-mujphe iljam) and amardeep ( mere man ka baawra panchy) . Aaayi aayi raath suhane -in Poonam by SJ .
Lata had mentioned in an interview that she had sung over a thousand songs in that ragam over so many decades! ( while the songs were simply divine when just heard over radio/radiogram, on screen they 'looked 'awful). It was since thos days that I developed deep dislike for 'visuals' for glorious songs.
( available in my google site at 'decadesbacksongs)..all by Lata only.
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... hkar-songs
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... hkar-songs
https://sites.google.com/site/decadesba ... r-classics

What struck me is that SJ had not used Sindhu Bairavi in any of his tunes but only Bairavi. It was Pt.Ravisahnakar who gave us the almost first sindhubairavi tune in hindi films in Anuradha( 1962)..'sanwarae sanware) sung by Lata. while sindhubairavi used to be the first favourite of tamil music directors like Sudharsanam/ GRamanathan./and SVVenkataraman.
But Smt.MS had given us some great song in that raga in Sakunthalai.(aanandam en solvene) I think, I have already mentioned some wonderful tunes by Smt.MS in her pre-1950 years.
Later she gave a frenzied classic rendering of Barathy's 'Nenjukku Neethiyum".

Papanasam Sivan gave the ragam an elevated status in Chandrasekara Eeesa'.. made immortal by Alathur brothers and of course TNR PILLAI's Thiruppokazh in Sindhubairavi
https://sites.google.com/site/hindustha ... dhubairavi

----------------------------------------
Surprisingly Smt.MS nor any of the old time greats of CM seem to have given any song in HM Bairavi,which I understand from your nice post was 'desiya todi' of Thyagaraja swami! I am all eagerness to get at the rare song in HM Bairavi by Thyagaraja Swami.
Do we find that in Thyagarahja Vaibavam and Sangeethapriya site on Thyagaraja ?
There is a very subtle difference between Hindusthani Bairavi and our Sindhubairavi. I am sure that you have observed it.
Even Smt.MLV 's 'Purandaradasa sahithyam 'sri venkatachala nilayam' is said to have been set to music by herself.
--------------------
Did I miss it? Have you perhaps given a video link for old-time greats singing Thyagaraja Swami's kriti in desitya-Todi?
-----------------
Kindly excuse me for any wrong understanding of your pioneering post.
CM Todi ( standard) is extremely unique and almost all the kritis are gems in both music and theme.
As a titbit, Sri.MKR's mother , who had the rarest of rare blessing ( and viceversa) of being the only friend of Smt.MS is said to be capable of singing more than 20 Thyagaraja Swami's Todi kritis. , though she was no stage artiste!
Thank you for more inuts in this thread.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

Dear RSR, dEsiya tODi isn't still quite the same as HM bhairavi although we may consider them to be equivalents of each other on scale alone. The old recordings of the Walajapet school show it to be closer to punnAgavarALi and modern (hanuma) tODi in fact. It is an old, almost extinct raga now. Over time, it has become much closer to HM bhairavi.

Sindhubhairavi tends to use all the major notes G3, M2, D2, N3 to spice up the flavor of the rAgA and exhibit contrasting colors. It is a derivative of HM bhairavi and is different enough from dEsiya tODi that we can have another thread for it.

PS : Sindhubhairavi is still the most popular raga in film music. It is still used in modern film songs, although it is so morphed now that I first couldn't believe that it could be sung in such a light / rock / blues style, but it can.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

Srinath K
Thank you very much for the kind reply and clarification.

The tube video of namo-namo by MLV.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-T2fQUEEZag
does this come nearest to HM Bairavi?
If it does, can I include it inThyagaraja Swami kritis of choice with that note?
-------------------------------------------
The full lyrics and meaning in many languages by Sri.V.G.ovindan here at
https://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.c ... vaaya.html
------------------------------------------

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

Yes the modern version comes closest to HM bhairavi.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

SrinathK
=======
tHANK YOU.
Will the MLV rendering be very close to Sindhubairavi as well? That will be easier for CM rasikas to appreciate.
----------------------

This is an upload by BalaGirish of Smt.MS 's Mirza Ghalib's urdu poem.
Is it in Sindhubairavi or HM Bairavi?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_EbIESRjc2I

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

srinathK
=======
May I know the ragam of the following famous bengali song by DLROY , rendered by Smt.MS
as given below?
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ini-gangae

CRama
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Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by CRama »

RSR, Many many thanks for giving link to Patitotharini Gange.

This song , one of the best renditions of MS is in Sindubhairiavi. By saying this, I am using a layman's parlance. I cannot differentiate Hindustani Thodi, Desiya thodi etc. It is Sindubhairavi what we call in carnatic music.

This opened another vista for me. Some of my non carnatic friends had chided MS for singing Bengali songs in a carnatic idiom. But now I can confidently say that the rendition of MS is no way inferior to the rendition of this song by the Bengali singer. MS has caught the soul and colour of the Bengali song by her impeccable pronounciation of this song.

rshankar
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by rshankar »

patitOddhArini (पतितोद्धारिणि) = patita (पतित) + uddhAriNi (उद्धारिणि) - one who uplifts/elevates the wicked/downtrodden
That’s exactly how Smt. MSS sings it.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

CRama wrote: 06 Jun 2019, 13:03 RSR, Many many thanks for giving link to Patitotharini Gange.

This song , one of the best renditions of MS is in Sindubhairiavi. By saying this, I am using a layman's parlance. I cannot differentiate Hindustani Thodi, Desiya thodi etc. It is Sindubhairavi what we call in carnatic music.

This opened another vista for me. Some of my non carnatic friends had chided MS for singing Bengali songs in a carnatic idiom. But now I can confidently say that the rendition of MS is no way inferior to the rendition of this song by the Bengali singer. MS has caught the soul and colour of the Bengali song by her impeccable pronounciation of this song.
CRama wrote: 06 Jun 2019, 13:03 RSR, Many many thanks for giving link to Patitotharini Gange.

This song , one of the best renditions of MS is in Sindubhairiavi. By saying this, I am using a layman's parlance. I cannot differentiate Hindustani Thodi, Desiya thodi etc. It is Sindubhairavi what we call in carnatic music.

This opened another vista for me. Some of my non carnatic friends had chided MS for singing Bengali songs in a carnatic idiom. But now I can confidently say that the rendition of MS is no way inferior to the rendition of this song by the Bengali singer. MS has caught the soul and colour of the Bengali song by her impeccable pronounciation of this song.
Respected Sir,
i am so very happy that you like the great song. and thanks for confirmation of the ragam as our sindhubairavi.
This poem by D.L.Roy is absolutely ennobling in its theme and poetic images. especially the last few lines.
and i am sure that the bengali lyric will be a fitting match for the theme.,
And to that the devotion and divinity of Smt.ms's voice and one of her favourite ragams, SINDHUBAIRAVI, here we have an absolute gem.
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I was just wondering if she had sung it in HM Bairavi slant,( not likely though), as it was meant for primarily north Indian audience.
--------
Though SINDHUBAIRAVI is derived from HM Bairavi scale , i venture to think, that this ragam is the contribution of CM film composers, and perhaps of Kamaldas Gupta.
Are there any kritis by thyagaraja Swami or SHYAMA sASTRY in tis ragam? Sri.SRINATH can clarify.
-------------
As for pronunciation of smt.MS IN HINDI ,, BE IT OR BENGALI OR URDU, and so many other languages like MARATHI, GUJARATHI, it is the usual complaint of generally anti-ms lobby.
She had direct lessons from dkrOY . and gretat sanskrit scholars have testified for te purity of of her pronumnciation.
When it comes to rendering tamizh songs, the language itself assumes its full splendour.
i am trying to get any reference to desiyaTodi fromsubba Rao's book.
best regards.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

checked up. there is no kriti by thyagaraja swami in sindhubairavi. ( re: thyagaraja kritis by sangeethapriya) nor is it likely to be among shyama sastry kritis.
dikshitar may have have used it.
CLARIFICATION REQUESTED FROM MD EXPERS, PLEASE.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

May I know the ragam of the urdu song by sMT.MSS? It is a saregama copyright record( 11 languages) LP.
Some of our rasikas may have that it their collection.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

5 thyagaraja kritis in this ragam have been listed in sangeethapriya site.
May be useful to learners.
--------------------
innallavalE dEsige-tOdi
namO-namO dEsige-tOdi
nI-pogada dEsige-tOdi
AjuvedalE dEsige-tOdi
rUkalu-padi-vElunna dEsige-tOdi--
5 songs

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

https://soundcloud.com/.../ishrat-e-qat ... alib-urdu- ghazal

( google search->m.s.subbulakshmi urdu gazal

C.Rama and Srinathk are requested to give the rgam of the above song, please!

---------------
Ishrat E Qatra M S Subbulakshmi Ghalib Urdu Ghazal by Shajar ...
https://soundcloud.com/.../ishrat-e-qat ... alib-urdu- ghazal‎Cached
15 Oct 2017 ... Stream Ishrat E Qatra M S Subbulakshmi Ghalib Urdu Ghazal by Shajar from
desktop or your mobile device.

SrinathK
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

And here we are - rAju vEdala in old dEsiya tODi of the Walajapet School.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnVTPWy ... zARguFHDVg

The unique phrase SN-G, MPGRS and other prayogas tell me that the aro-avaro combo of S G2 M1 P D1 N2 S and S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R1 S is essentially correct - but the interpretation of the gamakas (near totally plain G2 and N2 with occasional gamaka on DN-SN phrases) bring it closer to modern tODi overall than on the side of HM bhairavi or sindhubhairavi - the upper half of the rAgA is all like modern tODi while the lower half is more "folksy". There are no slides unlike the sindhubhairavi-ish phrases we use in the modern version.

This is indeed very different from HM bhairavi or sindhubhairavi. And I prefer it this way with less gamakas --- so that it avoids doing a mix of modern tODi and dhanyAsi and losing its "dESi" feel (Please let this rAgA not get converted into some sort of "dhanyatoDi" :o :shock: ).

So in a strange twist of historical exceptions, dEsiya tODi is one of those rAgAs that has turned even plainer over time then...

rbharath
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Joined: 05 Feb 2010, 10:50

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by rbharath »

RSR wrote: 11 Jun 2019, 11:28 5 thyagaraja kritis in this ragam have been listed in sangeethapriya site.
May be useful to learners.
--------------------
innallavalE dEsige-tOdi
namO-namO dEsige-tOdi
nI-pogada dEsige-tOdi
AjuvedalE dEsige-tOdi
rUkalu-padi-vElunna dEsige-tOdi--
5 songs
Of those listed above, rAjuveDalE is popularly sung in tODi.

nE pogaDa kuNTE is sung in varALi by Smt. Seetha Rajan.

on a related note, I remember Dr. V V Srivatsa mentioning in one of his lec-dems that dEsiya tODi was a rAgam which had resemblences to mordern day varALi and it was but natural for nE pogaDa kuNTE to be sung in varALi in mordern days.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

I read a few days back in srinivasarao blog about a Dikshitar kriti in this ragam. I failed to make a note of the page. Will read the blog post again and give reference.

SrinathK
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

There are no kritis by the trinity in Sindhubhairavi. And let us not continue to discuss that raga here. This thread was for dEsiya tODi.

nE pogaDa kunTE - I have heard 4 versions of it so far... :lol:

However we have some proof that the raga sindhubhairavi entered CM earlier than we thought - a text by Mazhavai Chidambara Bharathi has mentioned it. Some say OVK composed a tillAnA in it and I have heard it - but I must take into acccount that OVK's tunes are all only in modern versions of ragas - he is no exception to this. But sindhubhairavi has become popular only post trinity.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

although today, it might very well be the country cousin of hindustAni bhairavi & sindhubhairavi (or probably a co-progenitor of sindhubhairavi itself?).....These versions essentially are sindhubhairavi without all those extra major notes.
The above quote is what led us to Sindhubairavi. in this thread.
though subsequent elaboration , explained that the correct way of singing desiya_Todi differs much from Sindubairavi.
May I have any reference to desiyaTodi by MD?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

Yes, the modern dEsiya tODi has come too close to sindhubhairavi now. But old dEsiya tODi was quite different. When we get to sindhubhairavi, we can have a field day with it - more film songs might have been composed in it than any other raga.

This rAga has not been used by the Dikshitar parampara as far as I know.

I've been really stuck with a lot of work in the bank and a small sprain in my left hand hasn't helped. I'll try to get back this weekend.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

@SrinathK
I was wondering, about the long pause. Get well at the earliest. And do not strain yourself much. Getting the links is the hardest part of the work. Just when we need them, they vanish. Then we have to check, if the links are alive and such. How come, when we come back to the link, after a while, we are informed that the 'video is not available ' or just give a blank stare? The 'software' is the villain.
There are just too many 'dead links' , even in ragas section , of earlier years...almost all the rapidshare links. But without audio link, the post may not be of value.
As we are interested in audio only, we can extract the audio from tube and make some arrangement to 'stream ' it to the readers. Google drive and html5 audio, with I am experimenting now, seem to be a safe bet. Pardon me for drift into things which you already know but new to me. We can use blogger but just a page for each post with links. and another static page just for link to the pages. Just one blog post. Some thing, that I am trying Nothing much .Just an experiment.

RSR
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Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by RSR »

@SrinathK
Is this close to 'old' desiyaTodi?
https://youtu.be/RVs5pw9O-GQ
MM DandapaNi desikar in Nandanaar ( 1942)
Is this not GopalaKrishna Barathy song?

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: dEsiya tODi - old and new

Post by SrinathK »

No, this one is regular tODi. But sung in an older style not as heavy as what we do now. Although this song is originally said to be in dEsiya tODi. But thanks for sharing it, I will use this to show just how incredibly heavy tODi has become over the decades.

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