AbhEri - Old and New

Rāga related discussions
Vakulabharana
Posts: 37
Joined: 07 Dec 2017, 15:58

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by Vakulabharana »

That is a good finding. Scholars can discern everything! Then they should do it in their scholarly sadas and chamber.
I am surprised to find even such a simple analogy makes you to get confused.
I never mentioned about scholarship anywhere. I will certainly not do as I myself is not a scholar and I am not into any research . But I like improving my knowledge by reading research articles. All knowledgeable need not be scholars but the contrary is true.
So you agree this should not have spilled into streets with issues being taken to general media with socio-political narratives , as to who changed it and what is their motive etc?
When gamakas, sruti values, allied ragas, tala nadai and the aptness of tala to the sahitya syllables can all be taken to public, this could very well be. No one is forcing you or anyone to read posts which doesn't entice you.
And do not find a political motive for every other research.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

NCV sings pittan endrAlum in the scalar abhEri with D1 (same as kanda vandarul). It's a rare recording.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrSqOGYtr2k

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 04 Nov 2020, 07:37 NCV's recording of pittan endrAlum
That one is Jonpuri in Alapana and bheemplas stitched with the former in the song! Like the combo melas , exists in Platonic space, never lost!

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

I am going to request a lockdown for 2 days. When I wrote the story of the mysterious veiled lady, I did not think for one sec it will generate this much hot debate. I wrote that half serious, half joking. But indeed Abheri is exactly who I imagined she is. I can only imagine what she must have really achieved in those days. :lol:

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by shankarank »

It is better to begin a "Pure" Abheri thread without asking much about the old and new :lol:

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by RSR »

A few submissions from a hobbyist rasika
1) The Raga section is meant for discussion of 'melody' aspects and not for the lyrics. Srinath is giving links to audio to illustrate hw the 'melody' has changed . Correct approach. This section is not meant for discussing the literary beauty or otherwise, philosophical implications, meaning of the krithi, authenticity of the lyrics,

2) The lyrics can be discussed under the respective vak=geyakara sections. There are threads exclusively meant for MD kruthis and the other composers. Language and research scholars can utilize that section for sharing their opinions.

3) Even Srinath should restrain himself from 'romantic 'story telling that too so very lengthy. Actually it has marred this thread.
(As one of the moderators, it would be nice if he himself removes those posts)

4) I would request that subtle differences between similar-sounding ragas like Aberi, Beemplas, Karanataka Devagandhari and Rathipriya are pointed out with suitable audio exampes in public domain.-Raga Surabi style .I found that even the layman's wiki gives the pertinent points. links in this section purely meant for audio clips and perhaps for lec-dem on the melody aspect by scholars
.
5) Sri.B.dehi is requested to read by two earlier posts bit more carefully. I gave link to Maaye record of NCV with a few lines about deviating from the raga under discussion.

6) I too have given the NCV version of the song , for Aberi from youtube in my website https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanthakokilam

7) It is my opinion that it is not merely the lyrical excellence or the raga that ultimately matters. The full credit goes to the vocalist who sings it. The same song sung by a low-quality musician cannot be taken as the standard. And since NCV belongs to 1940s, her songs are not widely known and I miss no opportunity to give link to her renderings . A singer rated very highly by contemporary giants.

8) sankaran-k could have given the audio of any rendering in this section.
----------------------
I reiterate that the Raga section is meant purely for discussing the melody apect. Just imagine that it is instrumental.
------------------------------
Pardon me for playing the 'moderator' as accused earlier by one of the chief moderators. I plead not guilty'.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

Who deviated the whole thing into a discussion on tarangini and the whole old vs new debate? Not you or me. When I first replied to the tarangini remark, I had expected it to get over a long time back. For a long time no discussion happened on this thread since my last post. We all know who kick started it.

Since then this thread has only been about tarangini and lyrical issues in MD attributed kritis that are apart from Abheri.

And also, that "Chief mod" was most probably vk. I have asked them once and they told me they decided to take a few tricks from harimau to allow multiple to use mod ids, beyond that it's anyone's guess who uses a mod Id at any point in time - there are quite a few And the point is to stay anonymous. And only srkris AFAIK has power over users, so if you have issues with my posts or with vk, you should raise it with him.
Last edited by SrinathK on 11 Nov 2020, 14:07, edited 3 times in total.

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by sureshvv »

SrinathK wrote: 04 Nov 2020, 07:37 Unfortunately with NCV's recording of pittan endrAlum in post #70, I have run out of material for Abheri. So it's time to move on to the next raga.
Wonderful colors of Abheri. No wonder it has so many different names :D What about

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wd8dVV170vY

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

Oh god, an Abheri with both dhaivatams. Even some renditions of nagumomu IIRC do this.

This should promptly be made as #5.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by RSR »

I think, Maye -tarangini- crept in post-53. whose fault?

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

It started in #52 and #53 was a reply to that. That was the result of an earlier statement that Dikshitar's weren't recognizable. I wanted it ended by #55, at the very least a few posts later. Certainly I wasn't expecting it to go past a century.

I have emailed admin asking them if they will split the thread or not. It's up to them. It was nice to see a passionate discussion after a long time though.

RasikasModerator2
Posts: 151
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

We will split the thread soon. Thanks

Manian
Posts: 76
Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by Manian »

It is really funny and amusing when people dispute what others know or heard to be true as though they lived in historical time of Music legends. No matter whether Aberi uses d1 or d2, acoustic phonetics and auditory phonetics dictate what the brain perceives and processes. Like visual mirage, there are auditory mirage too. To distinguish between two notes (or swaras) there should be at least a 7 cycle differences. Over lapping creates auditory illusion. That is why say r2 and g1 are said to be varjitham because they over lap in the auditory cortex. Extremely rare people can perceive the differences but cannot reproduce them that a sound spectogram will identify. Only recent Russians have invented a spectrogram that can show the actual frequency formant for any vowel sound. Though, sa, ri,ga,ma,pa,da, ni have consonant beginning, is the vowel "a" with 720-950-1100 cycles, "i" with 240-1900-2340 cycles etc., give the note positions. How do I know? I worked on Computer generated music- simulating any string( Veena, violin..) struck (jalarthangam, piano..) and wind instrument (flute, obo..) if their fundamental frequency and a set of reverberating frequencies , the shape of each sound(buildup-steady state-decay like vocal, flute..) or exponential decay like Veena or saw tooth like violin, can be programmed. An article “Simulation of Instrumental Music” appeared in the Journal of the Computer Society of India in 1972 explains the details. The point is, the science of music should be taken into account when we discuss any topic. It is not taught unfortunately when we learn music. So, let us enjoy without finding errors or speculating about ragas. They are reproduced for enjoyment. If our brain produces endorphin, serotonin and dopamine in our brain and if we feel the same euphoric feeling in the next day, we have heard a divine music. Our emotions were enhanced!

RasikasModerator2
Posts: 151
Joined: 27 Aug 2018, 21:02

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by RasikasModerator2 »

Thread split. That was quite a lot of work honestly.

You can debate all you want in the new thread now. It is solely for that purpose. Keep this thread focused on Abheri please.

Thanks.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by sankark »

Vakulabharana wrote: 24 Oct 2020, 23:22
Manirang/Sri etc, a gamaka can completely distinguish them.
...
Svaras are more important than gamakas and the latter are used only as ornaments.
...
I took this example as they can be well distinguished by their svara prayogas itself. Perhaps in the last century, distinguishing a raga based on gamakas was developed.
so srmpns snp(dnp)mrgrs (sri) and srmpns' s'npmgrs (manirangu) if you emphasize swarams more vis-a-vis gamakams, and you sing an AlApanai using only the ArOhanam specified, what's different between these two (indulge me for a bit that some artiste can sing an AlApanai only with ArOhana swarakramam though it may sound very weird/jumpy)? Or if one avers that when you sing sri, often show mrgrs and when you sing maniragnu often show mgrs, then both become wonders just one (or two) phrase away from each other.

So you can have srgpns' s'npgrs (hamsadhwani) and then you can have srgrpns' s'npgrs (say it is called himsadhwani) and happily expound forever on each but 95% same phrases?

Honest curiosity. I firmly subscribe to the idea that to listen and derive pleasure/enjoyment from music all of this knowledge is of irrelevance. Ones ears and their emotional reaction to that sound is all that matters and some may develop a taste over time sans all "knowledge"

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by SrinathK »

sankark wrote: 27 Dec 2020, 14:41 Honest curiosity. I firmly subscribe to the idea that to listen and derive pleasure/enjoyment from music all of this knowledge is of irrelevance. Ones ears and their emotional reaction to that sound is all that matters and some may develop a taste over time sans all "knowledge"
That would be the goal of the vidwans and vidhushis section or concert reviews. This section is about ragas, so it is my plan to have them discussed in depth. When I am done, I think I can relax and enjoy the music alone. But right now, I am on a mission. I am only on a pause for time being because I just have too many work and study commitments to clear in my job, and I hope to wrap it up in a month.

It is also not necessary that everyone will relish music the same way as I do or vice versa. I did learn seriously for quite a while before I had to stop. But my love for listening music certainly goes back long before I knew what a swara was.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by RSR »

p-65
@sankark
The last para is my experience too
You are right Sir. Spontaneous poetry preceded grammar. Likewise, tunes and the way they are rendered, precede the grammar of music. Ragas existed before they were classified. Very often, deep knowledge of grammar , be it in music or literature, may even stand in the way of real appreciation of music. As a school boy, I happened to listen to Musiri's Nagumomu in radio and was enthralled. Did not know the krithi, composer, meaning, vocalist and such things. When I shared my delight with my cousin sister, musically trained, she said' ' yes! it depends on the vocalist 's rendering of the song too'
Ultimately, the vocalist is the person who brings out the beauty of the ragam Though subjective factors may play a part, the majority cannot be that very wrong.

sankark
Posts: 2321
Joined: 16 Dec 2008, 09:10

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by sankark »

SrinathK wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 08:52
sankark wrote: 27 Dec 2020, 14:41 Honest curiosity. I firmly subscribe to the idea that to listen and derive pleasure/enjoyment from music all of this knowledge is of irrelevance. Ones ears and their emotional reaction to that sound is all that matters and some may develop a taste over time sans all "knowledge"
This section is about ragas, so it is my plan to have them discussed in depth. When I am done, I think I can relax and enjoy the music alone.
Please do continue. Its interesting and illuminating in its own way - as is a discussion on the # of angels that can dance on the tip of a pin - and doesn't take ones pleasure away from enjoying an AbhEri with d2 (gasp) or a rAma nIyada in khp (gasp squared wink wink dilIpakam). Especially a definition of what a swaram is if gamakam is minimally (not to be) emphasized. My mental model is a swaram in CM rAgadom is an un-divisible (swarasthAnam + gamakam) unit

sureshvv
Posts: 5523
Joined: 05 Jul 2007, 18:17

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by sureshvv »

SrinathK wrote: 30 Dec 2020, 08:52 This section is about ragas, so it is my plan to have them discussed in depth. When I am done, I think I can relax and enjoy the music alone.
Waiting for you to be done with Abheri, so we can move on to Kapi.

Especially after listening to Venkatanagarajan at the Music Academy

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZVs7dH7SvA&t=34s

Vakulabharana
Posts: 37
Joined: 07 Dec 2017, 15:58

Re: AbhEri - Old and New

Post by Vakulabharana »

so srmpns snp(dnp)mrgrs (sri) and srmpns' s'npmgrs (manirangu) if you emphasize swarams more vis-a-vis gamakams
Sorry for the delayed response.

First of all, Sri is not only snpmrgrs and Manirangu is not only mgrs. They have so many other phrases. Mandra sthayi phrases extending into tara sthayi phrases are so common with Manirangu. Same withthe madhya sthayi phrases extending into tara sthayi phrases.
I sincerely appreciate your honest effort to learn. I would listen to the old versions to understand more. I feel delighted to know I am not alone. I repeat again, we are now over emphasising on gamakam. A raga cannot be distinguished based on a subjective element called as gamakam.
Listen to this mamava pattabhirama

https://youtu.be/YpxbH2FeyQ0

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