Guharanjani

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satyabalu
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Joined: 28 Mar 2010, 11:07

Guharanjani

Post by satyabalu »

*Is ikenathala by HMB only kriti in this raga? Lakshman &others to pitch in to clarify.
*SKN TNS has elaborated this raga in a recent concert as reported here http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=17967 .

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Guharanjani

Post by Lakshman »

He has composed a second song - navAvaraNa sampUjye in this raga.

satyabalu
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by satyabalu »

Thank you Lakshman!

SrinathK
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by SrinathK »

After so many big ragas with lots of phrases or lots of compositions, I get some breathing space in a small rAgA like guharanjani. This rAgA, a janya of the 28th mElakarta harikAmbhOji, is one of Muthiah Bhagavatar's scalar creations.

Aro: S R2 S M1 P D2 N2 S
Ava: S N2 D2 N2 P M1 G3 S

This is a scalar, vakra rAgA. The avarohanam is reminiscent of bahudAri, (A small correction, bahudAri's arOhaNam is SNPMGS, though some musicians IIRC have sung SNDNP in sangatis, in the anupallavi and charanam, and in brighas - need to check if that was archaic phrasing or artistic license). The MPDNS in Arohanam is also shared with bahudAri.

I believe that as a corollary, when SNDNP is possible, a straight SNPMGS should in theory be possible as a secondary descending sequence - and if it is used this rAgA would sound like bahudAri at that spot. But once the R2 steps in the character of the raga changes totally. The SRSM creates a special, very different effect, with SMP giving off a brief flash of kuntalavarALi. (A similar effect can be seen by the presence R2 in the rAgA priyadarshini, using R2 where G3 is expected causes this effect). Hovering around the MP area for long makes the rAgA sound more kuntala varaLi-ish.

We could interestingly have a few phrases ending in R2 as a result of this scalar arrangement - when you come to the R2 this raga sounds very different from anything it resembles. In guharanjani, R-D and M-N make vAdi-samvAdi pairs of swaras (1st and 2nd by order of importance).

There are only 2 listed compositions, both of Muthiah Bhagavatar in this rAgA.

ikanE tALajAlanurA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rp2yQifurT4 - TNS
navAvarNa sampUjyE - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cGzCRJavckk - A S Murali (this recording also explains the song)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us_p_oabDjI - R K Srikantan (explanation in Kannada with demonstration of the ArohaNam-avarOhaNam).

In both songs, I observe that the musicians stick to SNDNP without trying out SNP. Specifically, the first song sounds more like kuntalavarALi and the second more like bahudari, but that SRS makes this ragam sound like neither of them. This is a personal observation, by all means feel free to disagree.

And that's it.

Up next though, is gunDakriyA, and we have our work cut out for us as there are 2 versions of it, one is Dikshitar's, the old phrase heavy gunDakriya and the other is Thyagaraja's scalar gunDakriya... see you later!
Last edited by SrinathK on 06 Apr 2020, 10:52, edited 7 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 05 Apr 2020, 13:02
Aro: S R2 S M1 P D2 N2 S
Ava: S N2 D2 N2 P M1 G3 S

The avarohanam is the same as bahudAri and MPDNS is also shared with bahudAri, so the two rAgAs sound very similar,!
The avarohana of bahudari is quite different, just SNPMGS, i believe. I heard the videos, and I’m not detecting any shade of bahudari in the song, except may be a teeny weeny bit when AS Murali hits a mgs.

I found this to be a very harsh sounding raga, with none of the sweetness of Bahudari!

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Guharanjani

Post by SrinathK »

Ok, I corrected that part. Though when SNDNP is the avarohaNam of guharanjani, a straight SNP is also theoretically possible in this case as a secondary sequence, which will bring out bahudAri.

Interestingly, I was listening to MMI's brOva bhArama now, although he didn't sing it in swaras, he has used a SNDNP while singing anupallavi and charanam (others have sung SNSNP over there, and he has used it in the 2nd line of the charanam as well in the lower octave). In fact even Mandolin Srinivas has played it, in brighas also he has used it. I must check it up. There is some confusion to be resolved here, whether this phrase existed once or whether it is a case of artistic license.

Anyway I have to update my ragas posts from A-D as they are not covered in the detail I'm doing now. So now that you said this, let me see what I can observe in bahudAri, whether there were any old prayogas at one point, etc... I'll include this point in bahudAri.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 05 Apr 2020, 13:02
Aro: S R2 S M1 P D2 N2 S
Ava: S N2 D2 N2 P M1 G3 S

This is a scalar, vakra rAgA. The avarohanam is the same as bahudAri (though bahudAri prefers SNPMG more, it does use SNDNP also) and MPDNS is also shared with bahudAri (I believe that as a corollary, a straight SNPMGS should be possible, like bahudAri), so the two rAgAs sound very similar, but the SRSM creates a special effect, with SMP giving off a brief flash of kuntalavarALi.
Srikanth, Do you have a source you refer to when you make that statement about the avarohanam being the same as Bahudari, and that Bahudari has only “a preference” for SNPMGS? Do you have a source which says SNPMGS is not the Avarohana of Bahudari?

I have never come across a Da in how Bahudari sounds because of its avarohanam.
I believe that as a corollary, a straight SNPMGS should be possible, like bahudAri
This I feel is a rather strange way to describe a raga, as what you think Guharanjani should be by some logic, rather than what it is. This is a departure from what your approach has been so far. Also, your corollary proceeds from an assumption that is false as far as I know. Do you have an example of SNDNP in Bahudari? I can think of SNPDNPM, or just PDNPM, and DNSNP but not SNDNP.

Also you say now that you believe that as a corollary SNPMGS should be possible in Guharanjani and then ambiguously, outside the bracket you say,
So the two ragas sound very similar.


The two ragas sound so different, I wish you would acknowledge that instead of trying to make it fit your original words. What you are saying now feels like a contorsion.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

Ok, I corrected that part. Though when SNDNP is the avarohaNam of guharanjani, a straight SNP is also theoretically possible in this case as a secondary sequence, which will bring out bahudAri.
Ok just want to acknowledge your last post, it’s the end of the day for me, and I will be more present for the rest of your post tomorrow. I only have this thought to share that I’m clear about now: why do you want a theoretical possibility to be true when there are only a couple of songs? The raga sounds nothing like Bahudari. Can’t we leave it at that?

I don’t know if your post #6 answers anything I wrote in post #7. If it does, I’ll edit it tomorrow. 🙂

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Guharanjani

Post by SrinathK »

Ranganayaki wrote: 06 Apr 2020, 10:27
SrinathK wrote: 05 Apr 2020, 13:02
Aro: S R2 S M1 P D2 N2 S
Ava: S N2 D2 N2 P M1 G3 S

This is a scalar, vakra rAgA. The avarohanam is the same as bahudAri (though bahudAri prefers SNPMG more, it does use SNDNP also) and MPDNS is also shared with bahudAri (I believe that as a corollary, a straight SNPMGS should be possible, like bahudAri), so the two rAgAs sound very similar, but the SRSM creates a special effect, with SMP giving off a brief flash of kuntalavarALi.
Srikanth, Do you have a source you refer to when you make that statement about the avarohanam being the same as Bahudari, and that Bahudari has only “a preference” for SNPMGS? Do you have a source which says SNPMGS is not the Avarohana of Bahudari?

I have never come across a Da in how Bahudari sounds because of its avarohanam.
I believe that as a corollary, a straight SNPMGS should be possible, like bahudAri
This I feel is a rather strange way to describe a raga, as what you think Guharanjani should be by some logic, rather than what it is. This is a departure from what your approach has been so far. Also, your corollary proceeds from an assumption that is false as far as I know. Do you have an example of SNDNP in Bahudari? I can think of SNPDNPM, or just PDNPM, and DNSNP but not SNDNP.

Also you say now that you believe that as a corollary SNPMGS should be possible in Guharanjani and then ambiguously, outside the bracket you say,
So the two ragas sound very similar.


The two ragas sound so different, I wish you would acknowledge that instead of trying to make it fit your original words. What you are saying now feels like a contorsion.
I corrected that line - see the updated post, hey I'm also not infallible :oops: - sometimes I also slip up. But regarding your queries, I am looking for a source for any old version of brOva bhArama.

Regarding D in SNDNP, I have heard it in brighas and some musicians using it in phrases. MMI especially. He has not used it in kalpanaswaras. Mostly in kritis other musicians have sung SNSNP at that spot. I have written there of the possibility of being artistic license. But I am curious because MMI's style is an older one. There are so many ragas like this with archaic phrases which have changed to a more linear route over time.

My corollary in guharanjani is about SNDNP also permitting SNP to come in to the picture - modern kApi is a good example. This can be seen also in SGRGM - SGGM / SGM pair of phrases in many ragas - Ananda bhairavi, reetigauLa, neelAmbari (SNP and SNDNP), even some versions of ghaNTA. Unless you're strict with the scale, it totally can happen. The rAga mALavi today uses PNMDNS, but also RGMDN and in the past, it had a MNDNS. In fact old chenchu kAmbhODi used PMD,NMD and MDNS and sounds a bit like mALavi today!! So this plot device is possible.

To be very specific, navAvarNa sampUjyE to my years sounds more like bahudAri while ikanE tALajAlanurA sounds more kuntalavarAL-ish. Once you get to R2 phrases, it doesn't sound anything like the other two. A statement like this is more of personal taste. Shall I alter it accordingly? Never mind, I did. ;)
Last edited by SrinathK on 06 Apr 2020, 11:02, edited 2 times in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

I had to come back for this:
I corrected that line - see the updated post, hey I'm also not infallible :oops: - sometimes I also slip up.
Absolutely, we all slip up. As I’ve said before, I’m very grateful for all you do here. I just disagreed w what you said about Bahudari, but we’ll talk again tomorrow. Is that emoji irritation or embarrassment?
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 06 Apr 2020, 19:13, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Re: Guharanjani

Post by SrinathK »

The emoji text says "oops". Btw modern kAPi is also like this, SNP and SNDNP.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

👍🏻👍🏻

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

My corollary in guharanjani is about SNDNP also permitting SNP to come in to the picture - modern kApi is a good example. This can be seen also in SGRGM - SGGM / SGM pair of phrases in many ragas - Ananda bhairavi, reetigauLa, neelAmbari (SNP and SNDNP), even some versions of ghaNTA. Unless you're strict with the scale, it totally can happen. The rAga mALavi today uses PNMDNS, but also RGMDN and in the past, it had a MNDNS. In fact old chenchu kAmbhODi used PMD,NMD and MDNS and sounds a bit like mALavi today!! So this plot device is possible.
I agree with all that except that part about it being theoretically possible in this raga. All the other ragas you have mentioned are not “scalar” (dislike the word) ragas. If this is scale-based as these two songs show and as you have said at the outset , such an innovation is not yet existent and the description cannot include that.. that’s my view. We have to wait for more compositions and see if it occurs and is generally accepted before it can enter the description. Unless you don’t mean to describe the ragas and you are taking a “prescriptive” approach to ragas and you are including your thoughts and your own personal logic. Then we should be made aware of it.

Ranganayaki
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Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Guharanjani

Post by Ranganayaki »

SrinathK wrote: 06 Apr 2020, 10:43 So this plot device is possible.
Ha ha, as in fiction !!! :) :)

You gave me that for free, Srinath!! :)

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