Raga Sowrashtram

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Serpent
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 03:04

Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Serpent »

Hello!

I am a rock musician overall, and I know very little about CM. There is no teacher proficient in CM in our region, so the Internet is almost the only source. I'm also new to the just intonation, started practicing it recently. So I'm full of questions, and this one is the most actual for me now:

Can anyone provide some information on Raga Sowrashtram, beside just the arohana and avarohana scheme? I am most interested in the exact swaras that make up this raga. All that I know is a mention here: http://people.rit.edu/pnveme/ragaindex.html . The combination of Ekasruti Rishabha (R1) and Chyuta Madhyama Gandhara (G4) seems very odd to me, they do not sound good in a sequence, and that's no wonder, because their frequency ratio is extremely complex, 3^9 / 2^14. I tried to find which varieties of Rishabha and Gandhara form a consonant augmented second, and found the only one pair of R2 and G3, with the ratio of 75/64 (the same for D2 and N3 in the uttarangam). The pair of R1 and G3 or its equivalent of R2 and G4 is more complex and odd-sounding, and the pair of R1 and G4 is the worst of all! I wonder what might be the reason for choosing this very pair of Rishabha and Gandhara in this raga - maybe this unusually wide spacing has to be blurred by specific gamakas? Sadly, I know only one song in Sowrashtram, and not in an authentic performance. I only noticed that the G is sung like M-R in descending phrases. Also I cannot be sure which exact swaras should take Madhyama (Suddha or Tivra Suddha) and Dhaivata. What I'm trying to reconstruct according to the mentions of R1, G4 and N4 in the link above sounds really dissonant, but it was not so while still played in the tempered scale. If anyone knows the exact swaras and the way they should be performed, that would be of much help for me!

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by rajeshnat »

serpent
There is a thread by name sowrashtram already in the old forum. Can you raise this post over that thread please.Hopefully srkris will migrate and then you can take up.Till the we will wait. Thanks for participating .

Serpent
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 03:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Serpent »

Hello Rajeshnat,
Before posting this question I honestly tried to google for both spellings - Sowrashtram and Saurashtra - but it didn't find an existing thread on this raga. Now I tried again, narrowing the scope to the rasikas.org domain, but still got mostly concert reviews. The most close to discussing the nature of the raga was http://rasikas.org/forums/post124746.html#p124746 . There may be some technical issues with the forum engine, I don't know, but that is all I could find.

Serpent
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 03:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Serpent »

Well, it seems a bit like a monologue here, because I do not only wait for reply but continue researching by myself, browsing the Web. Anyway...

I stumbled upon the sources like this - https://ccrma.stanford.edu/~arvindh/cmt/ and this - http://carnatic2000.tripod.com/sruthi.htm . What may be concluded, that the "odd" swaras like Ekashruti Rishabha and Chyuta Shadja Nishada in fact never take their steady place as ascribed in the books. They are never sung/played bold, instead they should be considered as mere inflections from Shadjam. Pretty much like my guess in the original post, and the same might be true of Chyuta Madhyama Gandhara (as a downward shake from Ma). This might be no surprise for an experienced (in CM) musician, but for a novice who has to rely on books this is almost a revelation.

And then I found an example which approves all that. On M. Balamurali Krishna's 75 Ragam Vaibhavam vol.10 there is a song Allakallola in Raga Sowrashtra. And indeed, in the song itself, as well as in the alapana, the three aforementioned "odd" swaras are sung as inflections from Shadjam and Madhyamam respectively - never with a steady pitch.

So, the first question about the swaras' just ratios is no more of an interest. Any information on this raga's lakshana is still desirable and would be much appreciated.

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by rajeshnat »

Serpent wrote:Hello Rajeshnat,
Before posting this question I honestly tried to google for both spellings - Sowrashtram and Saurashtra - but it didn't find an existing thread on this raga. Now I tried again, narrowing the scope to the rasikas.org domain, but still got mostly concert reviews.
Serpent
Here you go I posted your original post in the already existing sowrashtram forum. The url is http://rasikas.org/forums/post155626.html#p155626
Let us hope the whole migration works . :cry: , once the migration is done you will be :D . Till then wait keep rolling eyes please :roll:

girish_a
Posts: 427
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 13:33

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by girish_a »

Nick H asking this question? I doubt it. Was the migration successful?

rajeshnat
Posts: 9906
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by rajeshnat »

Girish_A
This question was asked by the user serpent , not nick H. To say how migration is successful will take time but looks like this one post is the only aberration that I saw.Rest of the data is ok for the last 1 hour that I browsed.

Serpent
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 03:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Serpent »

Right, it was me asking this question. Any information on this raga would be appreciated!

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by arunk »

Hello,

Saurashtram uses R1 (see below), G3 (major third) and MI (perfect fourth). It uses both nis - N2 and N3 (i.e. both the seventh degree) in different contexts, and never in succession.

Now regarding R1, the eka-sruthi rishaba you mention is primarily "associated" (by convention/tradition) with the rishaba that occurs in ragas like sAvEri and gauLa. That rishabha is an oscillatory one from sa to a "higher pitch". Research (at Stanford) has shown that in actual practice there is considerable variations amongst musicians as to what this "higher pitch" the are oscillating towards. If I am not mistaken, in general it is noticeably lesser than 100 cents (which is perhaps true for even the flat R1 in other ragas). So an oscillation between C and C# 100 cents apart (with C as sa) probably wont capture it. Some people do find use for a specific ratio (256/243 I think) in this context.

Anyway the ri in saurashtram is considered the standard/stock variety as you find in many other ragas like todi, mayamalavagaula etc. - i.e. minor second (??) - i.e. close but probably not as sharp as 100 cents (some say close to 90 cents is a good approximation)

But that does not mean say a gamaka which is an oscillation from sa (i.e. like ekasruthi rishabha) is disallowed here (e.g. in the version SrI gaNapatini of tyAgarAja I learned, I can now recall it occurring). I mean I am not 100% sure that the ri of sAvEri and gauLa can occur only in those ragas, and nowhere else. However, but I do believe that in those 2 ragas, the above described oscillatory variety occurs prominently, thus leading us to associate it with them.

Songs - you should be able to look up SrI ganapatini sEvimparArE on http://www.sangeethapriya.org. There is also a dIkshitar krithi sUryamUrtE which is reasonably popular. There is another beautiful song ranganAtudE (ponniah pillai). These can provide the best reference point for you to reproduce the raga. IMO, try to start with flat notes at specific frequency ratios (other than standard ones) is a very slippery slope w.r.t carnatic music (irrespective of what the ton on available material may suggest :) )

Arun

Radhika-Rajnarayan
Posts: 289
Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Radhika-Rajnarayan »

Arunk says-"There is also a dIkshitar krithi sUryamUrtE which is reasonably popular." this is not correct. 'Soorya moorthe' is in the ragam Sooryakaantham, a melakartha (#17), with a sampoorna arohana and avarohana, while saurashtram has the anya swaram of the kaisiki nishadam.
A very popular kriti is 'ninnu joochi dhanyudanaiti' by Patnam Subramanya Iyer.
Of course, the mangalam that everyone knows - 'pavamaana' - is in sourashtram!
:)

arunk
Posts: 3424
Joined: 07 Feb 2010, 21:41

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by arunk »

arunk wrote:Anyway the ri in saurashtram is considered the standard/stock variety as you find in many other ragas like todi, mayamalavagaula etc. - i.e. minor second (??) i.e. close but probably not as sharp as 100 cents (some say close to 90 cents is a good approximation)
Pl. disregard that last part. I think the standard R1 may be sharper than 100 cents (but the ekasruthi one is < 100 cents, and that is why 256/243 which is about 90 cents is quoted as an apt one - the one for standard ri is quoted in texts as 16/15 which is about 111 cents). Like I said - a slippery slope ;-)

Radhikaji - My references (SSP and Rangaramanuja Iyengar's work) say sUryamUrtE is saurAshTram only. SSP (at http://ibiblio.org/guruguha/ssp_cakram1-4.pdf) assigns saurAshTram to mela #15 but notes it uses pancasruthi dhaivatam (D2) and kaisiki nishadam (N2) in some phrases.

Arun

Serpent
Posts: 4
Joined: 08 Feb 2010, 03:04

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Serpent »

Thanks very much!!!

In fact, this is exactly what I'm trying to do about Rishabha - use the value of 256/243, but no more trying to play it with a steady pitch, oscillating from Shadjam instead. And the same about Gandhara - I oscillate it down from Ma. When played that way, they do make sence together, which is not the case when playing them steady. The song this is all about is "Sharanu Siddhi Vinayaka" by Purandara Dasa, but of course I'm going to learn more of them.

Radhika-Rajnarayan
Posts: 289
Joined: 27 Jun 2009, 20:18

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by Radhika-Rajnarayan »

arunk- I apologise - my mistake -indeed, I realised that Suryamoorthe IS Saurashtram, after I had posted and gone away - and could not get back till this morning.

meerag56
Posts: 34
Joined: 10 Oct 2017, 20:25

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by meerag56 »

Radhika-Rajnarayan wrote: 19 Feb 2010, 10:01 Arunk says-"There is also a dIkshitar krithi sUryamUrtE which is reasonably popular." this is not correct. 'Soorya moorthe' is in the ragam Sooryakaantham, a melakartha (#17), with a sampoorna arohana and avarohana, while saurashtram has the anya swaram of the kaisiki nishadam.
A very popular kriti is 'ninnu joochi dhanyudanaiti' by Patnam Subramanya Iyer.
Of course, the mangalam that everyone knows - 'pavamaana' - is in sourashtram!
:)
The krithi Suryamurthe is definitely saurashtram, not suryakantham from which it is janyam.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by SrinathK »

sUryamUrtE namostutE of Dikshitar, Sri ganapati nee of Thyagaraja and of course, nee nAma rUpamulaku (mangaLam) are the best well known examples. Not many have attempted full fledged manodharma in it however.

There is a live recording of a concert in Kanchipuram where MS has sung sUryamUrtE. Not sure if it is commercially released, but lots of people on Youtube have shared it. An intense viruttam, then a shlOka followed by the song. There are also many recordings of Semmangudi and MMI out there.

ranganAthuDe of Ponniah Pillai is another lesser heard number. It was Maharajapuram Santhanam who often sang it. : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmkHPmX3h6w

Meanwhile, over to MLV for Sri ganapti https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGVzIIsxPZI - and swaras also for the win.

One tip for rasikas : Have a good firefox addon or use the download button in the Youtube app of your smartphone to save any non-commercial recording before sharing here. Who knows when you'll need it.
Last edited by SrinathK on 16 Jan 2019, 14:49, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by SrinathK »

ninnu jUchi dhanyuDaiti of Patnam Subramania Iyer is a fast paced kriti in this. Surprisingly couldn't find that many recordings of it, but here's an old gold, from Chembai : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pykE-a6ZbZg

shankarank
Posts: 4042
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by shankarank »

Hmm... so much confusion about where SuryamUrtE belongs :? Suryakantam, Saurashtram. Well Saurashtram is now in the mALavagauLa mEla. Obsession with d1 continues! :D . pancaSruti daivata - is also the bhashanga prayOga says SSP. bhAShanga rAgam.

I have not sensed d1 in the couple of renditions , I have heard of sUrya mUrtE - that of SemmanguDi Mama and SrI R. K. Srikantan. But unlike Madurai Mani Iyer , one difference I note is , in singing arOgyAti , both they do a slide from S to P - which seems notated in SSP. Which is unlike the saurAshTram that we hear normally - and immediately spells SrI dIkshitar!

As regards SrI Ganapatini, we should note that SrI tyAgaraja is composing in a spoken language, not that it doesn't have structure. And we see direct expression of bhAva in ghanatarambu , where utilizes the gamaka on D2 effectively to convey weight for ghana and mahipai slides down as n2dp - direct downwards to indicate earth , as well as the largeness of the world itself in how n2 is elongated up. He is more forthright.

SrI dIkshitar focusses more on structure, having chosen an unusual dhruva tALa, with structure of samskrtA coming to his aid.

nAdopAsaka
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Joined: 20 Jul 2020, 17:05

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by nAdopAsaka »

That is an intriguing insight into swaras around the phrase "ghanatarambu-ganu mahipai pada-mula" where the Ganapatis footfalls are echoing !! and indeed TyagarajaSwAmi has endowed this Ganapati with both the puja of Brahma and the dance/spirit of viSnu !.. heavy weights indeed...

It appears to me that in "Suryamurte" , the "saurashtra" raga mudra word is where this bhAShAnga (D2) swara is used ?

I need to check "varalakSmIm bhajarE" (another Dikshitar kriti in Saurashtra) for similar feature as well.

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by shankarank »

There by Dr. BMK @ Trivandrum Univ. Senate - 1984

https://youtu.be/hb92OlgpdUg?t=1063

Couple of dissonances in where namOstutE ends as well another spot, possible touch downs of the alien note d1 are sighted :lol: . It is like a tornado that touches down and evaporates :D

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Raga Sowrashtram

Post by shankarank »

This composition of Sri PaTNam , I just heard seems full of light touches that belong in Suryakantam!

https://youtu.be/sCyremYl3KU?t=1441

Unless... we say Suryakantam has no standing of it's own and it is some non-rAgA rAga :lol:

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