mELa ragas

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 14 Oct 2006, 03:46

See. Dont keep saying the same thing. behAg does not allow M2M1 whether you think it sounds nice or not.

ramakriya wrote:Sure, even in the presense of P, the prayOga p m2 m1 g3 in bEhAg(!) or d1 m2 m1 g3 in lalit does sound dissonent to me;

What has the presence of P got to do here! Just because pancama is present in a rAga, you cant associate it wilynily to whichever swara wherever it is. Anyway M2-M1 are an entirely different kettle of fish. Leave them out.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Oct 2006, 08:44

I located the MMI rendition where I heard him sing M2-M1-G3. It is part of ragamalika swaras part of an RTP in bhairavi ("2-day concert"). The audio-quality is quite lousy. I would think that this is definitely a flighty behag where he is perhaps exploring the outer limits of the raga. He not only uses P-M2-M2-G3 (first sample below), he ALSO uses S'-N3-N2-D2-...-P-M2-M1-G2 in one phrase (second sample below)

.

Whether you think this is too much liberty of behAg or not, i am interested on how you perceive the phrases - do they sound vivAdish, or just "odd" or do they sound ok? Even if they sound off, do they still sound sort within framework of behag (to me yes - but i recognize not "typical" behag - i dont think you can do this in a krithi).

Here are the links::

http://rapidshare.de/files/36660302/mmi ... 3.m4a.html
http://rapidshare.de/files/36660387/mmi ... 3.m4a.html

If there is going to be significant discussions on this, perhaps it should be to a different thread as we seem to have veered quite away from vanaspati. Yes there is still some connection as we are talking about perception of dissonance but any connection to vanaspati is faint and perhaps fading fast. I will let the admins make the appropriate decision.

Arun

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 14 Oct 2006, 21:26

drshrikaanth wrote:
Ashwin wrote:However, this general practice for svaras does not say that G1 cannot be a take-off svara.
O well. If you want to take everything that is not explicitly written in a treatise as allowed, then It wont be CM anymore

I agree; hence, my use of the word 'practice.'

Ashwin

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 14 Oct 2006, 21:47

I general "Practice", how often have you heard a vivAdi swara being a takeoff in say swaraprastAra?

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 14 Oct 2006, 21:51

A general comment to the members of rasikas.org - I think we can all agree that opinions are great as long as we present them in a way that doesn't suggest that we are imposing them on others. To call it "talking straight" would be self-flattering; it is more like "talking at" someone. As with all technical discussion, it is our responsibility, for the sake of objectivity, to dissociate fact and opinion until they can be correlated with external evidence (textual or practical). It is, furthermore, perversely unscientific to refute evidence of fact with opinion. Humility and erudition do not have to be mutually exclusive.

Ashwin

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 14 Oct 2006, 21:58

Right Ashwin. Dont forget you are a member too

Ashwin · Post by **Ashwin** » 15 Oct 2006, 01:08

drshrikaanth wrote:Pretty much. vivAdi notes are not used to start phrases. As I said earlier, these swaras depend on their neighbours for support and identity. So it is artificial to start on them. It may sound like R2 and you risk confusing yourself and the audience about the rAga identity. And then, when things look hunky dory, R1 will make a jarring entry. It just wont work.

drshrikaanth wrote:what is the previous swara. We are talking of a rAgamAlike. vanaspati is not the first rAga. Im sure the previous swara is R1 or possibly M1. We cannot take this unit as a stand-alone part.

drshrikaanth wrote:It is not ambiguous at all. If you dont expect G1 to pop out od nowhere, then you dont have a case This unit is sung in continuity with the previous unit that ends in the ciTTeswara. So music-wise, it is NOT a stand-alone unit. sAhitya-wise, yes it is a different caraNa.

I realize I haven't fully addressed this issue about G1 starting ascending phrases. vanaspati is, indeed, the fourth rAga, but the caraNa of the very first rAga, kanakANgi ("kanakANgyA ramayA..."), also ascends from G1. Same for the first pratimadhyama caraNa in sAlagam, "pratibimba rasAlaga..." A couple of the cittasvarAs in the 1st and 7th cakrAs (the ones taking the R1-G1 combination) also take G1 as the starting svaram in the ascent. Thus, at least from this source, it seems that these fragments could be taken as individual units, establishing G1 as a valid starting svara. Based on this evidence, it is my opinion that we cannot simply dismiss all ascending phrases that begin on vivAdhi svarAs.

Ashwin

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 15 Oct 2006, 01:18

I see your point Ashwin. I have nothing more to add.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Oct 2006, 11:34

Sri Guru Raghavendra Pallavi Concert Series - 3

Vocal concert by Vidushi Nagavalli Nagaraj
Accompanied on the violin by Vidwan H.K.Narasimha Murthy
and on the Mridanga by Kartik Gopalaratnam

The pallavi would be set in rAga gAnamUrti

Date : Oct 20th, Friday @7:30 pm
Venue : Sudha & Chandrasekharan's home in Fremont, CA

Please contact Susheel Narasimhan for the address and other details. He can be reached at
408-945-6463 or 408-318-1106

-Ramakriya

rajumds · Post by **rajumds** » 19 Oct 2006, 21:56

Difference of opinion over technical points & discussions on them are the strength of this forum. But this wonderful thread seems to have stopped due to that. I request ramakriya /arunk/ ashwin / drs & others to continue for the benefit of all members,.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 19 Oct 2006, 22:14

rajumds,

I haven't had a chance to sing and record bRhadambA madambA in bhAnumati yet

Hopefully I will do it before this weekend...

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 19 Oct 2006, 23:08

guruguhaswAmini in bhAnumati

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/u9xp

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 19 Oct 2006, 23:20

Thanks DRS for the clip. Nice explanation

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2006, 00:29

thanks again drs! I love hearing these rare (to me atleast) renditions!!

Consistent with the points Smt. Vedavalli makes at the beginning about usage of ga in such mELa ragas by MD, to me this rendition seemed to have "toned down" G1 considerably making relativelyt faint/subdued appearances here and there. This seems to me to contrast a lot with the brhadISwarO (gAnasAmavarALi) rendition by Sri. Susarla Sivaram, where G1's character appears "bolder" (like gAnamUrtE in gAnamUrti).

Maybe i am wrong but one big difference I sense between the two renditions is the way the mG prayoga (ma swara followed by a slide down to ga, the slide to ga being longer in duration compared to ma) is rendered in the 2 renditions. I think both renditions are mostly faithful to the respective notations in SSP and so I hope I am sensing this prayoga correctly

. In the brhadISwaro rendition, maybe ga is arrived-to and held longer compared to guruguhaswAmini rendition as that can lead to defining the prominence of vivAdi character in the rendition.

Btw, do we have any renditions of brhadISwarO by Smt. Vedavalli? Would love to see how her school handles G1 in that krithi and compare it to the rendition of Sri. Susarla Sivaram.

Arun

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 20 Oct 2006, 01:56

arunk wrote:
if you still think you have heard PM2M1, please listen to my lecdem on hamIrkalyANi.
I missed all that (wasnt that actively posting for a brief period). Can someone post it?

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/l344

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 20 Oct 2006, 02:39

thanks. Very nice and informative. To clarify, I had indeed always thought that in general M2-M1 adjacent is not within the framework of CM. But once I heard that MMI rendition, I thought maybe it was ok in rare contexts and it wasn't a total taboo. I also found that particular usage very intriguing. Besides atleast to my perception in that rendition it seemed to sort of fit in behAg albeit stretching it.

I guess based on what ramakriya posted some other artists may be employing it as well (again rarely) in behAg (?).

But it does seem like a modern (and liberal) interpretation of behAg.

Arun

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 20 Oct 2006, 20:41

"But it does seem like a modern (and liberal) interpretation of behAg. : Arun"

I have heard ARI sing PM2M1G3 in Behag. So this may not be a very recent innovation.

kartik · Post by **kartik** » 21 Oct 2006, 19:26

Just touching upon the M1-M2 adjancency,I think Kalyanaraman has composed in all the mela equivalents,using M1-M2 and omitting Panchama.That would make 36 ragas.Was this considered blasphemous at that time?

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Oct 2006, 20:14

kartik wrote:Just touching upon the M1-M2 adjancency,I think Kalyanaraman has composed in all the mela equivalents,using M1-M2 and omitting Panchama.That would make 36 ragas.Was this considered blasphemous at that time?

Probably. In fact i will not be surprised if vivadi melas are still considered blasphemous by some

.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 24 Oct 2006, 20:17

ramakriya wrote:I haven't had a chance to sing and record bRhadambA madambA in bhAnumati yet
Hopefully I will do it before this weekend...

ramakriya - we are all eagerly awaiting your rendition

Does anyone have more thoughts on vanaspathi and bhanumathi?

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 24 Oct 2006, 22:59

My mp3 recorder is not with me -and hence the delay

-Ramakriya

nalchakmur · Post by **nalchakmur** » 26 Oct 2006, 07:45

FOR INFORMATION OF THE MEMBERS THERE ARE NOW TANAVARNAMS AVAILABLE IN ALL THE 72 MELAKARTAS. MY BOOK "JANAKA RAGA VARNA MANJARI " HAS JUST BEEN PUBLISHED AND IS AVAILABLE FOR DISTRIBUTION.
THE BOOK IS QUITE AFFORDABLE , PRICED AT RS 300 (us$ 12) ONLY.

INTERESTED PEOPLE CAN CONTACT ME AT :

MY EMAIL : nalchakmur@yahoo.co.in
MY TEL : 040 27427600

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Oct 2006, 20:07

Ramakriya,
Is it possible to get a sampling of Nagavalli Nagaraj singing gAnamUrthi from her pallavi concert in CA?
Thanks.

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 26 Oct 2006, 21:58

The vanaspati has become too sticky

If it remains stagnant it will go rancid

Let one of you unfreeze and move on!

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 30 Oct 2006, 22:20

we are waiting for ramakriya to melt it with his rendition

. But maybe we can move on and he can do so when he finds time?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 30 Oct 2006, 23:25

I got my mp3 recorder back

and so I hope to do in the next day or two. But sure, we should go ahead, that will create some traffic on this thread .ha ha ha...

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 31 Oct 2006, 11:50

ramakriya wrote:I got my mp3 recorder back and so I hope to do in the next day or two. But sure, we should go ahead, that will create some traffic on this thread .ha ha ha...

-Ramakriya

Don't know if vanaspati has turned rancid

Finally ..here is the kriti brhadambA madambA in bhAnumati

http://www.rogepost.com/dn/zocp

-Ramakriya

p.s : for mAnavati, there is a fantastic recording of Chittibabu, and there are plenty of recordings of manOranjani

So the next mELa should be a cakewalk!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 31 Oct 2006, 14:34

We are in the 4th melakartha now and already in the 10th page . I suggest we can break this thread as chakras . Let this thread topic be renamed as melakartha #1 to #6 - indu chakra .

Srkris
I am assuming only you can rename topicsIf you think it is a good suggestion , you can rename it .

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 31 Oct 2006, 18:40

Ok sure, but it might break the continuity.

I had suggested separate threads for each raga, but later we decided to stick with a single thread for the same reason.

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Oct 2006, 20:36

It is not a bad idea. But what would be better is the concept of "sub-forum" i.e. one more level of hierarchy as in Index->Raga&Alapana->mEla Ragas->topics (like mELa #1: kanakAngi/kanakAmbari, etc.)

.

Is this even possible?

Arun

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 31 Oct 2006, 20:57

nice job ramakriya!

BTW, SSP has a cITTaswara passage also for this krithi.

Arun

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Oct 2006, 22:53

very nice ramakriya!
The raga is indeed coming alive.
Keep going; vanaspati/bhanumati is not rancid but blooming....

mnsriram · Post by **mnsriram** » 31 Oct 2006, 23:02

Very nice Ramakriya. Could you post an audio of the mUrchana please?

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 31 Oct 2006, 23:26

arunk wrote:nice job ramakriya!

BTW, SSP has a cITTaswara passage also for this krithi.

Arun

I know; My friend, from whom I learnt this had not sung the chitte swara. So I did not try singing it, even though I had the notation with me.

-Ramakriya

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Nov 2006, 06:33

Lost an entire posting I made about mAnavato and manOranjani due to some glitch

Oh well.. It is the weekend syndrome I think!

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 04 Nov 2006, 15:44

Ramakriya
I suggest we take one rAga at a time. You write about mAnavati and leave out manOranjani for later.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 04 Nov 2006, 23:19

After dwelling over vanaspati/bhAnumati, I think it is time for the 5th mELa mAnavati; Earlier to gOvinda, this mELa was manOranjani. Interestingly, tyAgarAja has composed both in mAnavati, and manOranjani.

The mUrchane for mAnavati is

s r1 g1 m1 p d2 n3 s
s n3 d2 p m1 g1 r1 s

There is a sharp contrast between the pUrvAnga and uttarAnga of this rAga.

There is an excellent recording of tyAgarAja's evaritO, by Sri Chittibabu on Sangeethapriya.org

http://www.sangeethapriya.org//Download ... babu2.html

One thing prominent both in the rAgAlApane, and kalpanA swaras is the usage of dATu swaras by Chittibabu. The kriti does not seem to have many such prayOgas as such. There are other commercial recordings of MLV singing this kriti too.

Lakshman should be able to post a list of compositions of mAnavati. Recently I came across the notation of a varNa, in mAnavati; The sAhitya is of purandara dAsa, transformed into a varNa by Sri TKG.

-Ramakriya

drshrikaanth · Post by **drshrikaanth** » 05 Nov 2006, 01:12

Find some more mAnavati pieces on this page

http://www.sangeethapriya.org/%7Enanda/ ... 1indu.html

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 06 Nov 2006, 22:41

is it me or is the mlv version quite different from chittibabu's? MLV seems to start the pallavi in the pUrvAnga, whereas chittibAbu starts in the uttaranga. Also in anupallavi, mlv holds at tara-shadja using it as anchor (and then goes to tara-gandhara), but chittibabu holds at tara-gandara using it as anchor.

To me mAnavati seems to have a more unique melodic touch say compared to vanaspati which does resemble cakravAham - but that could be becomes the corresponding (i.e. different ga only) close neighbours are all not as well known too (dhEnuka, sUryakAntam)?

Arun

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 06 Nov 2006, 22:55

Songs in mAnavati.

Balambike pahi bhadram dehi dehi-Matya-Muttusvami Dikshitar
Chittamela itlaya rama ni-Adi-Pallavi Shesha Iyer
Dhyana nilayam- --Bangalore S.Mukund
Evarito ne delpudu rama naloni jalini-Adi-Tyagaraja
Guru sarvabhaumam aghoram papa haram-Adi-R.K.Suryanarayana
Iyalbait-tonriya iyarttamizhe matra-Chapu-Tamizhnambi
Manavati mam pahi mandahasa vadani-Rupaka-Cuddalore Subramaniam
Manavati sumati-Adi-Dokka Sriramamurti
Manavati-Rupaka-Bangalore S.Mukund
Manavati-Chapu-Chitravina N.Ravikiran
Manavatiyai iruppai parama sukha-Adi-Shuddhananda Bharati
Ni chitta?-?
Ni sogasu chuda- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Ni va guha ennai rakshikka nila mayil midu kolahala-Adi-D.Pattammal
Nija bhakti ni nityanandanda kanda-Rupaka-Kotishvara Iyer
Niratamu- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Onditandu-?-?
Pa pa dha ni sa (sj)-Rupaka-Vina Sheshanna
Pamarudanu- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Pavanatamasmiyani pravachinchina mahaniyudu- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla
Sannuta shri ramakrishna enna paliso karuna-Rupaka-Ashok R.Madhav
Satguna vidhaya (lng)-Triputa-Govindacharya
Shri hanumantam bhajare chitta pavanasutam shri-Adi-Balamuralikrishna
Vinarada- -Sriramachandra Murti Sistla

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Nov 2006, 23:17

Lakshman - Muttisvami Dikshita's composition bAlAmbike pAhi is in manO ranjani

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 06 Nov 2006, 23:21

arunk wrote:is it me or is the mlv version quite different from chittibabu's? MLV seems to start the pallavi in the pUrvAnga, whereas chittibAbu starts in the uttaranga. Also in anupallavi, mlv holds at tara-shadja using it as anchor (and then goes to tara-gandhara), but chittibabu holds at tara-gandara using it as anchor.Arun

Did you find MLV's rendition on the net? If so, could u post a link?

arunk wrote:is To me mAnavati seems to have a more unique melodic touch say compared to vanaspati which does resemble cakravAham - but that could be becomes the corresponding (i.e. different ga only) close neighbours are all not as well known too (dhEnuka, sUryakAntam)?

Arun

I think your observation is right. This seems to be true for all the *not so well-known* rAgas.
The artist has more freedom to apply his imagination without bordering on any known territory - As seen with the very melodic (IMO) dATu prayOgas here by chiTTibAbu.

When such prayogas come to mainstream, then it becomes part of the lakshaNa

Now, who doesn't know that kalyANi and tODi revel in shadja-panchama varjya prayogas

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Nov 2006, 00:21

ramakriya wrote:Did you find MLV's rendition on the net? If so, could u post a link?

Its on the page that DrS mentioned above.

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Nov 2006, 00:52

arunk wrote:is it me or is the mlv version quite different from chittibabu's? MLV seems to start the pallavi in the pUrvAnga, whereas chittibAbu starts in the uttaranga. Also in anupallavi, mlv holds at tara-shadja using it as anchor (and then goes to tara-gandhara), but chittibabu holds at tara-gandara using it as anchor.

Arun

Arun, I'm sure that it is not just you

All, please post any other renditions of evaritO - if you find.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 07 Nov 2006, 01:06

ramakriya wrote:All, please post any other renditions of evaritO - if you find.
-Ramakriya

Dont know of any. I will post if i find some. Maybe others can post.

But i found this googling:
http://www.oldtelugusongs.com/newsongs/ ... ntaRao.mp3

An old telugu song in mAnavati (the raga name occurs). I must say this is a nice melody! Somehow the raga seems to accentuate that "old film song" feelinng

.

BTW, did you listen to BMK's? As usual the raga chAya(l) of his is its own thing!

I was impressed with his kanakAngi. But others so far, i have not as much. But i know you like him more and so i would like your impression.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 07 Nov 2006, 01:23

http://batish.com/sd/sounds.html

Here are some samples(unfortunately) of hindustani compositions of the 5 melas discussed.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 07 Nov 2006, 01:47

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:Wpm ... =clnk&cd=7

You can hear nija bhakti in manavati here.

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 07 Nov 2006, 04:21

arunk wrote:http://www.oldtelugusongs.com/newsongs/ ... ntaRao.mp3

An old telugu song in mAnavati (the raga name occurs).
Arun

A very nice song indeed.

arunk wrote:BTW, did you listen to BMK's? As usual the raga chAya(l) of his is its own thing!
Arun

Yes, I have listened to srI hanumantam - and don't have much to say anything about it. My feeling is that it is an 'also ran' kriti.

-Ramakriya

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 14 Nov 2006, 21:37

looks like we have run empty on mAnavati, shall we start discussing manOranjani - the equivalent asampUrNa mELa?

Arun

ramakriya · Post by **ramakriya** » 14 Nov 2006, 22:25

Yes Arun - Go ahead.

-Ramakriya