gambIranAttai

Rāga related discussions
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mohan
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Post by mohan »

The pentatonic raga gambIranAttai is not that often heard in Carnatic music concerts. Among the more popular compositions are Sri jAlAndhara and Sri vignarAjam bhajE. gambIranAttai's vivAdi cousin, nAttai is far more popular in regular music concerts.

However, in temple music and bharatanatyam this is one of the most popular ragas. Most mallAri-s and many pushpAnjali-s are set in this rAga. Why is this so? What is the significance in starting a dance program in gambIranAttai?

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I found this interesting article on mallari written by Kanniks Kannikeswaran http://archives.chennaionline.com/music ... usic61.asp

And about this connection to Gamelan..

"....It is to be noted that the scale of the gambhira naattai, the root of all mallaaris - is also seen used in the gamelan music of Indonesia. .The cultural connection between Tamilnadu and Indonesia during the time of the Cholas is well known. An investigation into the actual migration of this scale into the Far East is bound to further reveal exciting cultural links."

There are lots of youtube videos of gamelans. If one of you can listen to those and post back something that sounds like the same scale as GN it will be good.

This link says that the Sléndro scale is the pentatonic gamelan scale: http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~jjordan/ ... cales.html

vs_manjunath
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Post by vs_manjunath »

Can we get an AUDIO Link for "Sri vignarAjam bhajE in gambIranAttai " ?

This is a favourite of Aruna Sairam, is it not ??

braindrain
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Post by braindrain »

mohan wrote:The pentatonic raga gambIranAttai is not that often heard in Carnatic music concerts. Among the more popular compositions are Sri jAlAndhara and Sri vignarAjam bhajE.
Rakshamam , a Chembai regular in concerts !

keerthi
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Post by keerthi »

braindrain wrote:
Rakshamam , a Chembai regular in concerts !
do you know this was composed by a bangalorean...?

Sreeni Rajarao
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Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

Keerthi,
Google search shows the composer was Bangalore Nagaraj (also known as Meenakshisuta).

An HMV cassette I have shows the composer was Seshadri.

Is the info. on HMV cassette incorrect?

Also, I think we need a new thread on Meenakshisuta (if there is not one already). Could you initiate one, please?

arasi
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Post by arasi »

In my Arasi CD, there is 'nADi vandEn pADi aruL tEDi ninREn' in this rAgam. Interestingly enough, my non-indian friends like this more than the other songs. Wonder why--a few of them are music-oriented, others are not.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arasi: I agree. 'nADi vandEn pADi aruL tEDi ninREn' is indeed a great song. In addition to attractive melody and great sahitya, it has inherent laya uniqueness too which gets people's attention.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Thank you, V Kokilam!
Laya happens to be 'inherent' in it, if you say so. You know about my strength in tALam :)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Sometime ago a colleague of my asked me to check the gamelan music - and I remember that it resembled gambIranATTai. I dont know from where. But you can listen to some short samples on amazon here: http://www.amazon.com/Music-Gamelan-Gon ... 541&sr=8-2

arasi - IMHO laya in many ways is inherent in most if not all humans :-) - as I have argued in the past, tala is a "representation" of it, and of course also a "tool" with which one unearths the full laya potential that lays inside us.

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Arun,
You made my day! Yes, I am aware of it, and it makes me feel better that there is no problem if my compositions are spontaneous (and are not 'thought out' and built brick by brick like an architectural wonder. I remember a fellow-composer, an erudite one, chastising me for this on the forum:)

Ahiri
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Joined: 06 Aug 2006, 08:26

Post by Ahiri »

Sanjay Sir sang a Mallari some years ago at Music Academy
for a Vidya Mandir celebration.

he did trikalam
if i remember right ,
it went like this ,

sA pA; - ma ga mA;
tha dhim - ta ka dhim

pa ma pa ni pA
ta ka ja nu tA

ma ga ma pa mA
ta ka dhi mi tA

ga ma ga ga sani
ta dhit-ta ka thOm

sa sA pa pA Sa SA pa pA
ta tA dhi dhI thom thOm nam namm

ma pA ma ga sa
tha deenginathom

It sounded so grand .

rajeshnat
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Post by rajeshnat »

arasi wrote:In my Arasi CD, there is 'nADi vandEn pADi aruL tEDi ninREn' in this rAgam. Interestingly enough, my non-indian friends like this more than the other songs. Wonder why--a few of them are music-oriented, others are not.
Arasi
They like your alavillA gAmbheerA mudaiya gambheera nAttai krithi.

Since it is track 1 , the attention of many of them would be mostly for the first number of your cd . Since you said non indian friends I am assuming they have more stickiness to track1.
Last edited by rajeshnat on 16 Aug 2009, 21:51, edited 1 time in total.

Ahiri
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Post by Ahiri »

Sree Gambira Natya Ganapate !!

mohan
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Post by mohan »

mohan wrote:Most mallAri-s and many pushpAnjali-s are set in this rAga. Why is this so? What is the significance in starting a dance program in gambIranAttai?
Any further insight into this?

vs_manjunath
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Joined: 29 Sep 2006, 19:37

Post by vs_manjunath »

Sreeni Rajarao wrote:Keerthi,
Google search shows the composer was Bangalore Nagaraj (also known as Meenakshisuta).

An HMV cassette I have shows the composer was Seshadri.

Is the info. on HMV cassette incorrect?

Also, I think we need a new thread on Meenakshisuta (if there is not one already). Could you initiate one, please?
I have the " Compositions of Meenakshisuta" - ORIGINAL BOOK.
"rakshamam" is listed in this book.

coolkarni
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Post by coolkarni »

..
Last edited by coolkarni on 26 Aug 2009, 17:58, edited 1 time in total.

keerthi
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Post by keerthi »

vs_manjunath wrote:
Sreeni Rajarao wrote:Keerthi,

Also, I think we need a new thread on Meenakshisuta (if there is not one already). Could you initiate one, please?
I have the " Compositions of Meenakshisuta" - ORIGINAL BOOK.
"rakshamam" is listed in this book.
I am trying to borrow a copy of the same.. However, if you can make the time, please initiate a new thread in the vAggEyakAra-s thread...

vs_manjunath
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Post by vs_manjunath »

Yes. We will create a new thread on "Meenakshisuta" at the earliest.

rbharath
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Post by rbharath »

AS Panchapakesa Iyer's book gives an aTa tALa varaNam in gambIra nATTai, that starts as 'rangO tungada ranga'

keerthi
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Post by keerthi »

This is a stotra on the saint raghavendra, tuned into a varNam by ASP.iyer...

knandago2001
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Post by knandago2001 »

OVK's ranganatham is nice - a recording is available on sangeethapriya

rshankar
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Post by rshankar »

There is another composition by Swami Saravanabhavananda in gambhIranATTai - gnyAna vinAyakanE sung by Smt. Sudha Raghunathan in a CD (Tamil Malai).

Nirmala27
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Post by Nirmala27 »

Annamachary Kirthana - ' Thiru Thiru Javarala thi thi thi thi...' is in Ghambiranatai.
Heard just a day ago this song rendered by Sri Garimella Balakrishna prasad.

srinidhi
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Post by srinidhi »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnafmiSV6BQ

Sri BMK's sparkling varnam sung by Prince Rama Varma
Last edited by srinidhi on 07 Sep 2009, 07:05, edited 1 time in total.

gowri narayanan
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Post by gowri narayanan »

splendid indeed.

Rasika911
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Post by Rasika911 »

rbharath wrote:AS Panchapakesa Iyer's book gives an aTa tALa varaNam in gambIra nATTai, that starts as 'rangO tungada ranga'
Yes i have noticed this as well but unfortunately i have never heard a rendition of this piece nor have i heard anyone mention that that they know this varnam.
I would love to hear this varnam if anyone has a recording of it or can play it and post it up for all of us to enjoy. :)

gowri narayanan
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Post by gowri narayanan »

sirgazhi Govindarajan used to sing gnaana vinaayakane in gambhiranattai.

venkatakailasam
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by venkatakailasam »

Rakshamam Sharanagatham (Part 1/2) At: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ydFtdhc5Hk

and part II at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHAvQqlW ... re=related

by Prince Ramavarma with MA Sunderesan on violin can be listened and enjoyed.

venkatakailasam

venkatakailasam
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by venkatakailasam »

Rakshamam Sharanagatham rendered by Chembai is at:

Chembai-Rakshamam Saranagatham-Natta-gambira natta:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/file/zwmefh1m4y68dhk

venkatakailasam

venkatakailasam
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Re: gambIranAttai vignarajam bhaje

Post by venkatakailasam »

vignarajam bhaje composed by venkatakavi rendered by Smt. Sudha Ragunathan

and by Priya Sisters can be found in the following link to my files;

vignarajam bhaje-venkata kavi:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/vms24ao4bsnc4

venkatakailasam

venkatakailasam
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Re: gambIranAttai vignarajam bhaje

Post by venkatakailasam »

venkatakailasam wrote:vignarajam bhaje composed by venkatakavi rendered by Smt. Sudha Ragunathan

and by Priya Sisters can be found in the following link to my files;

vignarajam bhaje-venkata kavi:
Download link: http://www.mediafire.com/folder/vms24ao4bsnc4

venkatakailasam

A video mix of vignarajam bhaje-venkata kavi rendered by Smt. Sudha Ragunathan :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dfgDQj1CAs

venkatakailasam

SrinathK
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by SrinathK »

Let's bring on the mallAri! For gambhIra nATa is coming in procession around the streets of rasikas! :lol:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sl7xSuZIaOs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKGorFyrfWo - Oh yes, you can totally sing it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulRwHdNOOwM - And who said only the nagaswaram can play it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PMBBBbtQxQ4 - Oh yes, it was Kunnakudi who popularized it on the violin first.

Aro : S G3 M1 P N3 S
Avaro : S N3 P M1 G3 S

There are two ways by which one can look at it. One, take nATa (or nATTai as we have tamizh-ified it), remove the vivAdi D3 and R3 and the grand exuberant gambhIra nATa is born.

The other (and this is mostly likely what really happened) is that in the old days of tamizh paNN isai, pentatonic paNNs were ruling the field and the paNN named "nATTapadai" was in fact gambhira nATa. Now that music is long gone, still gambhira nATa seems to have survived in the traditions of South Indian temples.

So in honour of that history, I shall share tiru gnAnasambandar's first composition : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdUwqFXEDPI

For an introduction of the items like mallAri, rakti and pallavis played as part of nAgaswara traditions in temples, listen to these lec dems by Parivadini (big thanks to Lalitharam) :

nAdamum nAthanum series by Parivadini - there are lots of links. Check them out on the channel
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aa99H0gXuVY - BM Sundaram
https://www.facebook.com/lalitharam.ram ... 0399453250 - This lec dem organized in Dec last year by Lalitharam and Prakash Ilaiyaraja.

It is also more popular in Bharatanatyam, as mallAris are also tied to temple dance traditions - where nagaswaram and thaviL provide the music. (My knowledge of dance however is woeful).

However, if you leave out the temple, gambhIra nATa is actually a more recent entry into CM. Most of the compositions are new. The Trinity haven't explored it. It doesn't find mention in the SSP. Could it be that it simply never left the temple and went to town? Was it seen as a nagaswara only thing, belonging to their tribe alone?

Ok, so what makes this rAgA gambhIram? The G3 with S and N3 with the P give the grandness of the major 3rd everywhere and keep the scale symmetrical from S and P as well. The shuddha madhyamam supports the G3 like a brother. So this makes it ideal for expressing exuberance and majesty. And being pentatonic, it crosses all 3 octaves and all swaras can be connected with each other and there is plenty of scope for elaboration. You can play it slow, and fast too.

And there is a simplicity about it. See, there isn't much kampita gamaka at all in a raga like this, so it is mostly plain. You could torture gambhIra nATa with all kinds of stacattos and rhythmic perplexities and it won't lose its bhava, because the rAgA bhava comes naturally out of the positions of the notes and the swara combinations. So plain exuberant?

Here are some interesting relationships :
Change that madhyama to M2 and you get its sister, amrtavarshiNi. Or, don't change the madhyamam, but add an R1 on the descent. That is jaganmOhini. Somewhere in the process of natural selection, one N3 (the one on the descent) mutated into N2 and tilAng emerged. Mutate both the N3s into N2s and you get sAvithri (about that, no one knows who she is. Everyone only knows the actress and the other one who brought her husband back from the dead :lol: ).

The biggest change is what happens if you replace N3 with D2, and there is nagaswarAvaLi.

Add a D1 in both ascent and descent and you get sindhu rAmakriyA. Add D1 only on the descent and you get kamalAmanOhari. So gambhIra nATa has many neighbours and cousins. :D. bahudAri by comparison is living a couple of streets away. The HM rAgA jOg is that cousin from the North.
Last edited by SrinathK on 11 Aug 2019, 12:12, edited 2 times in total.

SrinathK
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by SrinathK »

So with vinAyagar always leading the procession, let's start off with Oothukadu Venkata Kavi's "Sri vighna rAjam bhajE"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uoIq7EBPKdM - the usually heard version
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r15KK623uB4 - there is a heavier version of it too. Less heard.

There are varnams in it : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_QagVcLN2I - BMK's own varnam this one is the most well known.

The varnam by Mysore Sadashiva Rao I wasn't able to find.

And it seems to be a perennial favourite for OVK compositions - ranganAtham anisham - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9NZwipBHDI - his unique madhyamakala is aptly suited to rAgA. Given the list of compositions in it, perhaps it was OVK himself who first brought the rAgA out of the temple.

There are also a few lesser heard compositions in it :
http://www.sangeethamshare.org/muralida ... _Concert-6 - sarambE vANi

Another varnam : http://www.sangeethamshare.org/vijayago ... ndra_Iyer/

ninnE bhajana sEyu - http://www.sangeethamshare.org/manjunat ... ara_iyer-0

And gnyAna vinAyaganE of Papanasam Sivan - http://www.sangeethamshare.org/kasturi/ ... RAVI-TODI/ (Which is the first time I'm hearing it too).

So back to the uber popular :

Maharaja Jayachamraja Wodeyar's composition Sri jAlandharam AshrayAmyaham is another popular masterpiece : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFd3nDshqcg

This is a great composition - musically very rich, fast paced, with all kinds of phrases, the chittaswaram of Sri jAlandharam is a "moto perpetuo", continuous and complex swaras for 4 cycles with no place anywhere to catch your breath! gambhIra nATa is milked to the maximum in this one.

And speaking of OVK again, here's the dreaded "snake song" that gave some people here nightmares due to overdosing on it - the kalinga nartana tillAnA - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Cbhpd2zYw - by Aruna Sairam of course. :lol: :twisted: - featuring our own patented jathiswara rap in between the melody. On this forum it was actually used to repel wild animals including tigers and porcines... :lol: :lol: :lol:

And when the procession is done and the deity has gone back home, you wonder, is this all that has been done with it? I can't even find an RTP anywhere. It looks like at the end of the day, for all the ancient history, gambhIra nATa / nATTai has become typecast into that temple rAgA of the pied pipers that's used for snake charming and playing lots and lots and lots of arithmetic calculations on it. In the rest of the CM world, gambhIra nATa is mainly OVK and post trinity. Maybe @Lakshman can help find a few more composers.

Given that all of India is reeling from all kinds of water crises of both droughts and floods, amrtavarshiNi has clearly come out on top of the sibling rivalry. Even the other cousins are more popular. But I think they'd make a novel combination if they teamed up together for a rAgamAlika family.

There is one other thing I can do - with so much of mallAri around, I could in theory, market this rAgA in schools to get kids to learn arithmetic via permutations and combinations along with some music and rhythm. :lol:

Alternative Spellings : gambheera nATa, gambheera nATTai, gambhIra nATTai. The janya list on wiki also gives another rAgA by the name of vEdandagamana with the exact same scale.

parivadini
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by parivadini »

I listened to a great RTP by Niramala Rajasekar on the Veena on this Raga. To my suprise - I found so many contours of the raga that I haven't heard earlier. Certainly a great raga that needs more limelight.

SrinathK
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by SrinathK »

Ok, some days back, Kuldeep Pai released his presentation of the Kalinga nartana tillAnA with Sooryagayathri and Rahul Vellal. God this is completely on another level to anything I thought....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYiRRS1Qpu8

I knew this tillAnA is in indeed of some fresh life since on this forum, some rasikas gave it a bad rep. But only after hearing this I have finally seen the greatness of this composition. It is absolutely unique in the entire CM repertoire because it retains ALL of its dance elements to show us just what a tillAnA is capable of. There's absolutely nothing like it out there. OVK has thrown absolutely everything in his inventory at it.

What an unbelievable killer combination of a torrential ganga pravAham of an outpouring of lyric, jathi, rhythm and melody! And so well supported by the musical orchestration with the choicest instruments for every lilt and passage. Even after listening to this 10 times now, I am simply not able to wrap my mind around it. Truly the greatest composition in gambhira nATa raga and probably the greatest tillAnA of all time.

There is so much in this one composition that it needs live commentary to properly appreciate it. The ending jati on the pallavi line itself has 2 variations and several sangatis. The anupallavi goes up all the way to the upper P, before changing naDai for a brief jatiswaram in khanDa naDai. The next line is followed up by a lyric heavy passage.

Then starts the very long charanam. The opening jatiswaram is in chatushra and tisra naDais. Numerous sets of poetric lyrics and melodic tunes following the lyrical flow like multiple charanams set to tune following the opening jatiswaram, which just keeps getting more and more into the flow with every recapitulation. You could literally say chandas is imposed into the laya, which is in turn imposed on the music.

After that, the tillAnA cuts off the music and goes on to a long, long, very long off road excursion of spoken jati-poetry that has some fantastically fiendish jatis of a very high order with the lyrics seamlessly weaving themselves into it. Kuldeep's team here has put in the damaru and salangai sounds to complement this part. He has even done a segment where he sings one set of jatis while the kids sing the actual jati line in a superimposition.

At the end, the tillAnA even goes for the occasional pause where all of us can catch our breath, before coming back on road and resuming the melody in the last couple of lines for a thrilling conclusion. But there's one last surprise as the last repetition of the last line slams on the brakes to half speed just before the finish line. It is almost as though, OVK stops and steps out of the chariot , proceeds to walk across the finish line to garland his beloved Krishna for that matchless kAtchi of his dance on the hoods of kAliya, praised by the devotees across the 14 worlds, the dance for which Lord Shiva himself came to Gokula to admire!

Sivaramakrishnan
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by Sivaramakrishnan »

*Rakshamaam Saranaagatham popularised by Chembai is attributed to Lalithadasa/r too! May be Meenakshisutha a.k.a. Lalithadasa!?

* Gambhira Gajanayakam is another kriti in Gambiranattai composed by Guru Surajananda. I have heard Madurai G S Mani singing this.

rajeshnat
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by rajeshnat »

Sivaramakrishnan wrote: 19 Feb 2020, 17:47 *Rakshamaam Saranaagatham popularised by Chembai is attributed to Lalithadasa/r too! May be Meenakshisutha a.k.a. Lalithadasa!?

* Gambhira Gajanayakam is another kriti in Gambiranattai composed by Guru Surajananda. I have heard Madurai G S Mani singing this.
SRK,
I was referring few years back to you which i am referring again.Lalitha Dasar and Meenakshi sutha are two different persons . The song rakshamam saranagatham was written by Meenakshi sutha who also goes with the name Bangalore Negara. The song rakshamam was written by Meenakshi sutha and I am not sure of tunesmith .

Check http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic ... 25#p298493 link where Gowri Radhakrishnan tells that rakshamam saranagatham is not by her grandfather Lalithadasar(TG krishna Iyer).

arasi
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by arasi »

Srinath,
Loved your post about Kuldip Pai's presentation of the the kAlinga Nartana tillAnA.The complexities of laya patterns which you explain (which are way above my grasp) nonetheless fills me with joy.

A simpler composition, nADi vandEn, pADi aruL tEDi ninREn is the opener in Arasi Vol:1, sung by Sumitra Nitin...:)

shankarank
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by shankarank »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Jan 2020, 23:26 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYiRRS1Qpu8

some rasikas gave it a bad rep. But only after hearing this I have finally seen the greatness of this composition.
Well it shines in a produced performance. The laya niRNayam of at least one of the kids - Rahul Vellal has been proved in a real concert setting as well - a recent Arkay concert. Soorya Gayathri brings musical strengths from various other endeavors.

But the original popularizer of this could not enunciate syllables - in a simple Bhajan like thOdaya mangaLam! How do you expect it to have an impact on people who have listened to viSrAnti filled music all life? Plus her voice is a blaring open throat! It is indeed surprising that she is as popular as she is. Well she brought her own Audience - who have never heard Carnatic music in original form since Ariyakudi days.

arasi
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by arasi »

Rather harsh, I would say. To those who are not born in a musical environment, for those who however musically inclined they are, think of CM as something beyond their reach, for those who think it is not easy to even approach, this original popularizer did and does have an impact on the "so called" masses. She makes it sound reachable, relishable--throw in a heaping amount of her communication skills. I haven't come across any notable musician who isn't a 'no no' to some. so, what gives?
Somehow, this original popularizer's popularity did make some conventional listeners sit up--worse, make a leap from the jungle and end up grilling her. She earned her popularity after many years of hard work, let's not forget.
We need all kinds of vidwAns and vidUshis to make CM an enduring, enriching and enjoyable thing in our lives.
Tastes DO differ. It's a good thing that CM has many artistes of whom some are guardians of the most traditional to the very responsible experimental artistes who explore it with verve but in a respectful and awestruck manner. They add variety to the music we most enjoy listening to.
When they are just attempts with no clout, they wont stand the test of time, of course!

kmrasika
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Re: gambIranAttai

Post by kmrasika »

The varnam by Mysore Sadashiva Rao I wasn't able to find.
Not varṇam. He composed the kr̥ti, "vanajākṣa ninnē nammiti" - the sāhitya of the caraṇa-s are composed to emulate mr̥daṅga playing patterns. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cXWHiRHB0rc, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kT1ZGE-ddeY
And gnyAna vinAyaganE of Papanasam Sivan
The composer is śaravaṇabhavānanda.

musicofmdr
Posts: 27
Joined: 16 May 2020, 18:36

Re: gambIranAttai

Post by musicofmdr »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Jan 2020, 23:26 Ok, some days back, Kuldeep Pai released his presentation of the Kalinga nartana tillAnA with Sooryagayathri and Rahul Vellal. God this is completely on another level to anything I thought....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYiRRS1Qpu8

I knew this tillAnA is in indeed of some fresh life since on this forum, some rasikas gave it a bad rep. But only after hearing this I have finally seen the greatness of this composition. It is absolutely unique in the entire CM repertoire because it retains ALL of its dance elements to show us just what a tillAnA is capable of. There's absolutely nothing like it out there. OVK has thrown absolutely everything in his inventory at it.
...
Wow! This presentation is awesome! @SrinathK, thank you for picking this up, and, giving a thorough commentary/explanation. That helped me a lot to appreciate this "magnum opus"!

#musicofmdr
https://musicofmdr.com

srisund
Posts: 10
Joined: 27 Dec 2020, 18:39

Re: gambIranAttai

Post by srisund »

Can someone please send me the swara notations for Sri Vignarajam Bhaje to my email srisund@yahoo.com

Thanks

Sundaram

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