Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

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vallknowme
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#1 Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

Whats the difference between ऋतं and सत्यम् ?

Rsachi
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#2 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by Rsachi »

As I understand it, Rtam is a truth in the sense of right, proper, supported by scriptures etc. It has a lot of association with Vedas.
satyam comes from a more fundamental concept of "existing, being, eternal" etc. What is satyam is not dependent on human knowledge or validation.

There are occasions when Rtam is employed as a synonym for satyam.
The famous verse in Bhagavadgita 10.14 goes like this:
Bg 10.14

sarvam etad Rtaṁ manye
yan māṁ vadasi keśava
na hi te bhagavan vyaktiṁ
vidur devā na dānavāḥ
Word for word:
sarvam — all; etat — this; Rtam — truth; manye — I accept; yat — which; mām — unto me; vadasi — You tell; keśava — O Kṛṣṇa; na — never; hi — certainly; te — Your; bhagavan — O Personality of Godhead; vyaktim — revelation; viduḥ — can know; devāḥ — the demigods; na — nor; dānavāḥ — the demons.
Translation:
O Kṛṣṇa, I totally accept as truth all that You have told me. Neither the demigods nor the demons, O Lord, can understand Your personality.

vgovindan
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#3 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vgovindan »

Rtam - anRtam are dvandva - duality. satya - asatya also are dvandva. But satya has an absolute meaning - which has no dvandva, because satya aka 'sat' is inclusive of asatya too. That indescribable state of existence from which everything unfolds (sRshTi), subsists (sthithi) and rolled back into (laya) is 'sat'. That which is the substratum of even consciousness; that which cannot be 'perceived' but is only state of 'being'; that which is also called 'mahAkASa' - beyond space and time; the lakshya of 'That are Thou'. Whan we say 'satyamEva jayatE' we mean that 'absolute 'sat'. jayatE because, when everything collapses, That is the only 'thing' left. AkA puccha - ucchishTha - what remains after 'nEti, nEti, nEti'.

Rtam is Rythm aka 'kAla cakra' - dharma. Buddhist philosophy stops with Rtam - it negatively describes the state of being as SUnya which is a contradiction in terms - because there must be a perceiver to perceive the SUnya unless SUnya is accepted as 'sat' - beyond perception. But that is a negative way saying 'zero' is 'infinity'.

kvchellappa
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#4 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by kvchellappa »

satyam is the substratum that which survives even if everything else perishes. The objective of upanishads has been to understand satyam. (Buddhism believes in sunya as the remainder and advaita believes in brahman which is indivisible and pUrnam). (This satyam is somewhat different from truth that we use in transactions; in Tamizh we have beautiful differentiation between uNmai, vAymai and meimmai).
rtam is the order in nature, the observed world, which is the basis of existence. The planets going around the sun is a matter of rtam. The working of our respiratory, circulation systems is rtam.
The two are used synonymously at times, but in passages like rtam vadishyAmi, satyam vadishyAmi occurring together - the difference is maintained.

vallknowme
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#5 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

who are the perfect executors of rtam? do devas do it? or they make mistakes too? From the explanations above, I understand executing rtam is means to understanding satyam.

vallknowme
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#6 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

"rÀjantam adhvarÀnam gopÀm rtasya dIdivim,
vardhamÀnam sve dame" - RV, 1.1.8

R L Kashyap says that this mantra affirms the association between Agni and Truth and that Agni is the guardian of Truth. He goes onto say satyam is absolute truth (more in line with the explanations above) and truth in action is in two parts ?? - rtam (Right) and Brhat(Vast). rtam is also a projection of satyam. He says rtam has gone out of currency in post vedic literature because people have misinterpreted rtam to be some kind of lower truth.

vgovindan
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#7 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vgovindan »

vallknowme,
Please watch Dr RL Kashyap - (11.0) He explains satyam, Rtam, bRhat (Truth - Movement of Truth - Manifestation of Truth). Our Vedic and upanishadic texts take the seeker from lower levels to higher levels step by step. Therefore, we may not take one verse as making final declaration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BI3VvzyXt0E

vallknowme
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#8 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

Erased by whim
Last edited by vallknowme on 20 Jan 2016, 08:06, edited 1 time in total.

vgovindan
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#9 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vgovindan »

I have been wondering whether 'Sakti' is mentioned in vEdas. It is the 'agni' which has been given most important place in the vEdas. It appears that in vEdic periods, 'agni' meant 'Sakti' too. Technically, it is Sakti (energy) that manifests as 'agni' - heat and light. The separation of the two, so to say, might have happened later. Am I wrong? Any ideas?
Last edited by vgovindan on 20 Jan 2016, 11:12, edited 1 time in total.

vallknowme
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#10 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

sema question. no really

kvchellappa
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#11 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by kvchellappa »

"The roots of Shaktism – a Hindu denomination that focuses worship upon Shakti or Devi, the Hindu Divine Mother – penetrate deeply into India's prehistory. From the Devi's earliest known appearance in Indian Paleolithic settlements more than 20,000 years ago, through the refinement of her cult in the Indus Valley Civilization, her partial eclipse during the Vedic period, and her subsequent resurfacing and expansion in Sanskrit tradition, it has been suggested that, in many ways, "the history of the Hindu tradition can be seen as a reemergence of the feminine."[1]
Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Shaktism
In Vedas prominence is to Indra, Varuna, Agni, Mitra. Rudra is there, but Vishnu is not prominent (occurs in a handful of palces, I read).

vallknowme
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#12 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vallknowme »

..

vgovindan
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#13 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vgovindan »

dharma - madhu vidyA

"The law that operates outside is the law of the cosmos. There are no two laws – God's law and man's law; universal law and individual law. No such thing is there. Such thing as 'my law' or 'your law' does not exist. There is only one law operating everywhere, in all creation, visible or invisible, in all realms of being. The same law is there for the celestials, the humans and the subhuman creatures. Everyone is controlled by a single principle of ordinance. That is called Dharma. It operates as gravitation in the physical level; it operates as love in the psychological level; it operates as chemicals in the chemical level and it operates as integration of thought in our mental level, the level of cognition and thinking. It ultimately operates as the connecting link between the subject and the object, on account of which there is knowledge of anything at all. That is called Dharma. Dharma is an integrating force of anything that is even apparently in disparity. Anything that is disconnected, apparently isolated, not visibly connected, is actually connected, and that connecting principle is called Dharma. And Dharma becomes an integrating principle because of the presence of the ātman that is behind it. There is no such thing as Dharma independent of the operation of the ātman. What you call Dharma or law is the ātman working. Its own law is its Being; its Being is its law; they are not two different things."

ayaM dharmaH sarvEshAm bhUtAnAM madhu |
asya dharmasya sarvANi bhUtAni madhu |
yaScAyam asmin dharmE tEjOmayOQmRtamayaH purushaH |
yaScAyam adhyAtmaM dhArmastEjOmayOQmRtamayaH purushaH |
ayamEva sa yOQyaM AtmA |
idaM amRtam |
idaM brahma |
idaM sarvam ||

अयं धर्मः सर्वेषाम् भूतानां मधु ।
अस्य धर्मस्य सर्वाणि भूतानि मधु ।
यश्चायम् अस्मिन् धर्मे तेजोमयोऽमृतमयः पुरुषः ।
यश्चायम् अध्यात्मं धार्मस्तेजोमयोऽमृतमयः पुरुषः ।
अयमेव स योऽयं आत्मा ।
इदं अमृतम् ।
इदं ब्रह्म ।
इदं सर्वम् ।।

http://www.swami-krishnananda.org/brdup ... II-05.html

Rsachi
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#14 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by Rsachi »

VG,
Truly, the eternal, omnipresent Operative Dharma is...
In lalitAsahasranAma, She is described as
सर्वानुल्लङ्घ्यशासना

Of course man thinks he can make and break laws. His माया..... :D

rshankar
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#15 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by rshankar »

Rsachi wrote:His माया..... :D
Or perhaps Hers? :D

VK RAMAN
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#16 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by VK RAMAN »

Rutam vachami | Satyam vachmi || 2 || in Ganapathi Atharvasheersham

vgovindan
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#17 Re: Difference betwen ऋतं and सत्यम्

Post by vgovindan »

rshankar wrote:
Rsachi wrote:His माया..... :D
Or perhaps Hers? :D

मम माया दुरत्यया - gItA - therefore His Maya.
Jokes apart - The problem is with Sanskrit Grammar. We have got used to this picturisation which otherwise are simple principles unrelated to the gender.

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