Swara Identification Exercises, Instrumental: Post Answers

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vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

You can do g (s)n` /s

where the (s)n` is like a nokku on ni from sa. Note that to say this is a violation would imply you are
1. Taking swaras to be flat notes
2. You are saying that aro/avaro determines the pitch contours of the melodic framework behind the raga.

Both IMO are counter to what CM is about and so using it to define a CM melodic entity would shall we say oxymoronic
Arun, I assume the 'You' is a generic you since I am on the same wavelength as you to mean 'melodic contours/entities need not be strictly determined by the aro/ava. Well said!!

I am having fun at your thoughts about the lack of swaras because I am going through the same struggle here..;) Creating melody with such restrictions is challenging in the sense it exposes so many things like what you said about it sounding western.

I am also trying to mess around around within the aesthetic considerations like what Arasi said about 'pa' gamakam and what you and Suji said about 'G'.

One thing I learnt is, which is probably obvious in retrospect, the song gets its form mostly with proper use of karvai and repeated notes without making it look repetitive. There are so many such rhythmic tools composers have used both in classical as well as raga based lighter variety. The melodic hooks and prayogas need not be used in abundance. The same prayoga has the elasticity to be stretched, moulded, re-formed and recast just with changes in rhythm and give quite a different feel. This seems to be even more true when words are used since they take their fair share of making the music wholesome even if the rhythm and melody are essentially the same in many places.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, I enjoyed your attempt. Your voice appeared out of no where and it was a pleasant surprise. Thanks very much for the indulgence.
BTW, why do you say from Tara Ri to madhra Sa.. Though any raga would traverse the 4 quadrants, you do not have to go as low as mandhra S.

Arasi: Great sentiments and words in your extempore poem. I am sure CML will sing it.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

sample 20a:
I think you are trying to present 3 ragas (??). But for me, only the raga of the last one is very clear. For the first two - I am not at all sure of my guesses.

1: s m ,(p) g , r n`~ , s g r /g~ , m p , g m g r s (Anandabhairavi?)
2. r , /g~ , m- , p m , g r- n` s r , g~ , m p m g r g r s (mAnji (?) as it sounds a bit like rAmacandrEna also)
3. m /n d m p m g r g~ /m g r s n` s g g m (rItigowLa - the n`sggm is a dead give away)

I will do 20B later.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 31 Oct 2007, 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

arunk,
I heard them as you did, and the rItigowLai was a give away, all right.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Vk
Before we quit vasantha kokiladhvani here is a final attempt incorporating arasi's contribution.
First the melody
http://www.mediafire.com/?6hqxz3oep2h
You may note I have 'mollified' the notes using simple gamakams and also avided the use of mantra shadjam which gives great anxiety :)
Here is the pure song itself attempted by a friend!
http://www.mediafire.com/?ejcf5j3jyxj
Note the human voice naturally adds gamakams which are not there in the plain notes.
Lot of work is needed. Perhaps AR Rahman takes notice and make you into a celebrity :)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

cml,
you have given "Vasanta kokiladhwani" a celebrity status! much $ value!
absolutely cool!

The subtle gamakas are good- more of slides though- giving it a filmish tone
Last edited by Suji Ram on 31 Oct 2007, 22:41, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

CML,
A beautiful job in polishing up and showcasing the melody!
When friends in music gang up...:)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Wow, I have not had a chance to listen to CML's upload since I am on the road. I will get back home tonight and listen....

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

rItigowLa - the n`sggm is a dead give away
really?
listen to this first clip in sample 20A I originally played

http://www.sendspace.com/file/5oleny

Would that be rItigowLa- why or why not

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Suji,
I heard 20 B now along with A. I am addled now!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

i have no idea suji. But dhirga non-kampita gandara does seem to go well here particularly after a dhIrga flat madyama if it is rItigowla (i.e. s m, g, where m, and g, are flat) - i could of course be wrong as I am just going based on my instincts.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Nov 2007, 07:31, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vk/others

how about this "contrived" melody of vasantakokiladhwani.

n`sgn`s ,
n`sgpgn` s,
n`sggp- ggp- gpgn`s,
n`sggp- ggp- gp/r's,

I have tried to use slight emphasis on ni (in n`s), also on ga (in jhanTa) and in pa (in ga-pa-ga). Also slides in g to n (down) and p to ri (up) and also in sa to ga (up). They are not always obvious - besides midi makes things sound so contrived :)

Now once I reached sa', i was stuck. I wanted to come down with a phrase that is sort of melodically similar to ga-pa-ri'-sa. but could not find one.

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Arun,
Now we have to wait for the composer to come and comment on your suggestions.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun
On this weird Hallo'een night why are you imprecating like a witch :)
nee saaga-- nee saa
nee saagappa etc.,
Is this your Trick or Treat :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

I just got back. Arun, did you mean to provide a link to a MIDI generated sequence of your prayogas?

arunk
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Post by arunk »


vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

nee saaga-- nee saa
nee saagappa
It tooks me a little bit to catch on to what you are talking about... LOL..:lol: Hope others saw the 'You die' humor..

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

CML, you are the celebrity now ;) Sounds very nice.. The MIDI thing gives it a space age flavor. Thanks. (BTW, I am not sure what you meant by 'incorproating Arasi's contribution. I did not hear her words. Did you upload the right file? )

Arun, Great suggestions and the MIDI sequence gives the idea. I may not be able to do the smooth transition from G to N` on the flute, may be Suji can with her violin. I will work on that and post.

Suji, I did not have quality time to work on your exercise. On my first listen I heard ritigowla but I need to pay more attention leisurely. I will.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Arun,
And at the very end--you feed my imagination on this--did I hear the black cat too?! Just a Halloween jest.
VK,
Is a lot of swarAs a requisite, is my question. After all, you are the boss of your own creation...
Last edited by arasi on 01 Nov 2007, 09:40, edited 1 time in total.

arasi
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Post by arasi »

And yes, I would like to hear the second part to the song too...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:
nee saaga-- nee saa
nee saagappa
It tooks me a little bit to catch on to what you are talking about... LOL..:lol: Hope others saw the 'You die' humor..
:lol: i did not get that initially. That was just brilliantly cool cmlover ! Yes it was indeed a swarAkshara piece for halloween

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

nice one cml.

well for halloween, this how it is supposed to sound...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f67tyz

arasi
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Post by arasi »

Very nice, Suji. Just scary enough for little ones. In such a household, the treats would have been really good!

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arasi wrote:Very nice, Suji. Just scary enough for little ones. In such a household, the treats would have been really good!
:)
I really played this piece for some trick-o-treating kids at the door- was fun amidst their own laughter!!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Very nice Suji... Cool.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

arasi wrote:VK, Is a lot of swarAs a requisite, is my question. After all, you are the boss of your own creation...
Arasi, by 'lot of swaras' if you mean in the Aro/Ava, I do not know. With this scale, that is the challenging thing to come up with good sounding phrases. Interestingly, sa ga pa sa is quite pleasing though use of it by itself sound western as Arun mentioned but combing with s g n`s and p` r s and their corresponding higher octave cousins, there is good scope for melody.

And if you mean in general, as I wrote before, I am realizing packing many characteristic phrases in one avarthana does not seem to be necessary for a song. I do not want to generalize it with such major principles since I am definitely not qualified. But even one characteristic phrase used in combination with other bridge swaras with Karvais, janta and sarali like combinations fitting into the various combinations of sub-divisions of many beats of an avarthanam provides tremendous scope for variety and freshness. Does this make much sense? I may be over analyzing the melody construction from a bottom up point of view since most melody probably comes from a deeper source within and with a good sense of melody aesthetics. What do you/others think?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

> but combing with s g n`s and p` r s and their corresponding higher octave cousins, there is good scope for melody.
vk - i am afraid even this will sound light since the pitch range covered by these two in combined is a bit too large (p` to ga), and also involves wide jumps : ga to ni` (5 semitones) sa to pa` (7 semitones) and then back to ri (7 semitones) - and in case of sa-pa`-ri' you have consecutive wide jumps. I think you cannot *descend* to pa from anything else than sa? And here getting to mandra ga ia bit much and so you are sort of forced to go up - and only ri is a possibility. That is why I thought the avarohana seemed to really constrict cm-type melodic movement.

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

On lighter sounding rAgAs, even in the CM context, don't we have light rAgAs? kuntala varALi, for instance? Even the pros, when they create new rAgAs, come up with lighter-sounding ones, if I'm not mistaken. Anyway, we don't expect at all a rAgA as 'serious' as tODi from an amateur...
When I spoke of minimum of notes, I meant that what you created sounded very pleasing, in spite of having fewer swarAs. Yes, you need room for bending and emoting, I agree. ARun's pointer on the avarOhaNAm is something to think about.
However, in the process, you should not lose the pleasing sounds of the kOkilam which you brought about, evident in the way you ended the phrases. Its uniqueness need not be lost. I mean, by pouring over it too much. By your trying it out at intervals in the next few days, the rAgA would take a more flowing svarUpA. I say intervals because that way you can avoid mental blocks. And do keep in the background of your mnd what your friends have suggested, and you may end up with a fluid rAgA.
Who knows? One of the composers on the forum might even post a song, once you are ready with the rAgA and present it :)

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arasi - agreed. When I meant light - I meant in the western style - and that comes generally from two things
1. raga structure has wide jumps built in i.e. where you have to do wide jumps no matter what. Ragas like kuntavarali, suposhini do qualify here. I mean here jumps of 5 semitones (s-m) or larger (s-p). In this case we have g-n, s-p and p-r. Three built into the raga. Kuntavarali and suposhini has 1 (s-m).
2. In addition to #1, if you employ consecutive wide jumps. Kuntavarali/suposhini does not require you do do that. But here s-p`-r-s requires that.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Nov 2007, 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

Arun and folks
Glad you got the hallo'een joke :)
Suji has indeed put it in real perspective which if available earlier would have been used by Dick Cheney for the occasion (http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington ... htm?csp=34)
I am still struggling with sample 20B, but you guys forge ahead!

Arun! That was a good melody It is indeed a 'saagaa' melody not a 'saagum' tune. The g/pr's jump is precipitous. I agree with you analysis of CM that steep jumps are not tolerated. Even within semitones the idea of gamakams is to soften the transitions. Now will a jump using non-included svara-jumps as a short resting notes be allowed (without making it a bhaaShaanga raga!). Call them 'alpa prayoga' a la sri :)

vk
the line 'ilaiyudirndu pani mEviyum' (see#450) is arasi's contribution.

I do hope one of our performers takes note of kokiladhvani to try out. Especially I invite our vaggeyakara Ramraj (if he is following) to try his hands at this. But work is needed especially from Arun to make the Aro/Ava 'singable' in the CM context. Introduce appropriate 'anusvara ledges or resting points' to make the aalaapana smooth!

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Thanks all. All points noted and understood. Let it sink in and I will definitely work on it.

CML, there is already a kokiladhwani ;) ( koniyADa, wonderful song )

Arun, this does not address the valid points you made but an orthogonal observation. We have heard about pUrvanga pradhAna ragas and uttarAnga pradhAna ragas ( more from HM side of analysis ) and Vasanthakokiladhwani seems like it is neither, it is more QuadrantCrossing Pradhana scale/raga if I may. That was my interest in exploration when I was messing with this but it turned out to be mostly about that after all these discussions. I am also keeping Arasi's valid aesthetic point about any addition to the scale altering the first impressions too much. That being said, it is worth thinking about how to build melodic structures with such Quadrant-Crossing Pradhana melodic molecules!!

arunk
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Post by arunk »

what if the structure is

s g p n r' s (p n s disallowed but allows p n r' s ok, n s disallowed too n r s vakra required)
s p g r n`s ( g r s disallowed but g r n`s ok)

I wonder if the basic melodic qualities of original is present in this. But may be not.

Scope may widen if avarohana becomes s n p g r n`s (as it will allow snrs, snpnrs, snpg etc.)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:what if the structure is

s g p n r' s (p n s disallowed but allows p n r' s ok, n s disallowed too n r s vakra required)
s p g r n`s ( g r s disallowed but g r n`s ok)

I wonder if the basic melodic qualities of original is present in this. But may be not.

Scope may widen if avarohana becomes s n p g r n`s (as it will allow snrs, snpnrs, snpg etc.)
ns'g'ns'

then the above will be allowed I guess
Last edited by Suji Ram on 01 Nov 2007, 23:19, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Arun,

I like it. You preserved the quadrant crossing vakram which is good since that was one of my original intents. I also wanted some of the consonant intervals involving sa ga pa which is also preserved.

As Suji also indicated, I would like to preserve the n s`g n` s (and p r' s) usages since I have gotten used to them now, especially a fastly executed n s`g n` s p` r, s

How can that be accomodated? Just as a key phrases but not quite captured in the syntax, as in Kedaram?

arunk
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Post by arunk »

just because it is g r n` s does not mean g n` s is disallowed :) although I was trying to reduce the # pf mandatory requirements on wide jumps as dictated by the original structure. The ga and ni here actually are not harmonically related - otherwise may be "more allowable". But I am not sure it would really be taboo even with this. I mean you have s-m, s-p etc. in mela ragas. You also have r-p, d-r,d-g etc. Mostly all ascending , although rn`s in many ragas.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 01 Nov 2007, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:How can that be accomodated? Just as a key phrases but not quite captured in the syntax, as in Kedaram?
yep. Congrats - you raga has now officially become a rakthi raga ;)!
Last edited by arunk on 01 Nov 2007, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji Ram wrote:nice one cml.

well for halloween, this how it is supposed to sound...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f67tyz
:cool: suji!

Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

OK, it shall be that then.;)

One new key usage that came out right away which I like is: g r n`s,, g n` s,, p n`r s,, p` r s ( in its various forms with Karvails on different swaras ). Sounds nice and there is some symmetry and complimentary qualities to it.

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

arunk wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:nice one cml.

well for halloween, this how it is supposed to sound...

http://www.sendspace.com/file/f67tyz
:cool: suji!

Arun
I scared myself silly with that!

cuckoo sound turning into vampire ish

Call it adbhuta rasa!
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Nov 2007, 00:22, edited 1 time in total.

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: Was that done on a piano? A real one or a virtual keyboard? Also, are the swaras Arun's Haloween Swarakshara ;)

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

vasanthakokilam wrote:Suji: Was that done on a piano? A real one or a virtual keyboard? Also, are the swaras Arun's Haloween Swarakshara ;)
A real one yes! a key board. Did you not recognize the Arun's halloween swarakshara?

I actually made another one later for entertainment with

first- sounds of foot steps
followed by opening of a screeching door
then Arun's swarakshara on church organ
followed by that scary laughter
Ending with a woman screaming

You can do all this on the yamaha keyboard
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Nov 2007, 01:37, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Post by cmlover »

OK VK!
Now write out the aro/avaro clearly as well as the allowed phrases for vasantha kokiladhvani so that I can start experimenting! I will not accept the sounds recommended by Suji as legal though they will make it a 'shishirakokiladhvani' (shuddering cuckoo sound) :)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji: Church organ for scary/devilish purposes..ha ha ;)

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

cmlover wrote:OK VK!
Now write out the aro/avaro clearly as well as the allowed phrases for vasantha kokiladhvani so that I can start experimenting!
OK, here it is, as it stand now.

Raga: Vasantha Kokiladvani

Arohanam: S G3 P N2 R2' S '
Avarohanam: S' P G R N`S

G N` S and P R' S are also allowed and are characteristic phrases.

Other implications.

P N S' is not allowed but P N R' s is ok,

In general, N S' is disallowed (higher octave arohana context) since N R' S vakra is required but N` S ( lower octave avarohana context ) is allowed, examples being in the context of R N` S and P R N`S etc. And N` S by itself is OK as well, as long as it is not continous with S as in S N` S

G R S is not OK but G R N`S is OK.

Raga lakshnam is exhibited in the phrases that involve Sthayi crossings.

Rasas and aesthetics observed so far: Bravery, Change ( of seasons, of sentiments etc., in general change of any kind ), Calling out for something (as in Bird calls.), Shantham is observed in lower octaves providing for a contrast of Bravery in the higher octaves. Any others?

Suji Ram
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Post by Suji Ram »

Vk
You could still have the aro as SGPNPR'S'
fancy?
PNP can come in combination of some prayogas
Last edited by Suji Ram on 02 Nov 2007, 02:38, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

vasanthakokilam wrote:In general, n s' disallowed (higher octave arohana context) since n r' s vakra is required but n` s ( lower octave avarohana context ) is allowed, examples being in the context of r n` s and p r n` s etc. And n` s by itself is OK as well as long as it is not continous with s as in s n` s
vk, when i mentioned n s (whether it n` s or n s') is disallowed I was confused as I forgot about my own foray :)

As you say - sns and pns etc. are disallowed. Only ns as graha, and rns/gns (r, g higher) are allowed.

Arun

vasanthakokilam
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Post by vasanthakokilam »

Suji, I thought about that possibility but that does not accomodate P N R' S. Also that gives room for a lot more other phrases to get in since it allows 'N P', But definitely, P N P R' S by itself is allowed as a phrase, with P N being part of the syntax and P R' S being an allowed phrase. I guess that is the trick to keep the Aro/Ava limited but allow some exceptions as key phrases. May be Arun can comment on this further.

arunk
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Post by arunk »

Suji Ram wrote:Vk
You could still have the aro as SGPNPR'S'
fancy?
PNP can come in combination of some prayogas
that would be fancy indeed.

You could then contrast with s' p g p g r n` s (already allowed) :) or s' p n p g r n` s. It becomes sort of bouncy and lively :)

btw, did I miss something? How was p n p r' s allowed to begin with?

Arun

arasi
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Post by arasi »

When you play it after you work on it, we would listen, and by then, with the sum total of our responses, nava rasAs may be detected!
Seriously, at least of what you have played so far and with CML's 'cooking' with them, I sense Santam, delicate treading and hope. The new avarOhaNam might bring in the liveliness and guts of hamsadhvani??
Whatever the case, don't pay too much attention to what we all say and end up like the father and son on the road who listened to passers by as to who should ride the donkey :) In short, don't let the bird fly away...

arunk
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Post by arunk »

arunk wrote:btw, did I miss something? How was p n p r' s allowed to begin with?
If it is s g p n r' s and s p g r n`s, then I think p n p would be disallowed. You cannot split as p n + p r' s.

The rule is you have to look at every transition and validate it as per structure (taking into account exceptions of key phrases). So you have to look at p to n, n to p, p to r', r' to s. The ni to pa would be disallowed. From the above structure, from ni you can go only higher (i.e. s, r g) - cannot go lower

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 02 Nov 2007, 02:51, edited 1 time in total.

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