Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Post Reply
msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by msakella »

20210419:
I hereunder furnish the respective Google-drive links
of 'msakella's & 'Radel's Shrutis in respect of Shruti-5.5.

I shall be thankful if Radel also supplies flawless Shrutis to the poor aspirants of classical Carnatic music. amsharma

msakella's:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1DUfBha ... p=drivesdk

Radel's:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1WKIpYK ... p=drivesdk

Gaanaamrutha
Posts: 1
Joined: 07 Jun 2020, 21:58

Re: Tuning the Shadjam to C or F?

Post by Gaanaamrutha »

Hello!

I have often heard that while tuning Veena, one sets the tuner to E or F and then set the SaariNi string to this Shruti. Then the Panchama would be B or C.

As I know, as per the western system, the equivalent for Shadjam is C and Panchamam is E.

So, my request is, why is it like this, the switch in the nomenclature....the SaariNi string is set to E or F in the tuner, and then Panchamam becomes B or C.

I look forward to the clarification. I thank you in advance.

Regards,
Gaanaamrutha

shankarank
Posts: 4043
Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by shankarank »

In the early 2000s Vid. Shashank's father Mr. Subramaniam used to bring with him (for sale!) all the tambura recorded Sruti as CD(s) for all the standard Sruthis. He did mention that a lot of care and diligence were made to produce them. That may still not equal a real tambura on a real auditorium ambience! But it is within reach, with only how much ever technology we can throw at it. Like top quality player and speakers, Bose et. al. Or a carefully curated / calibrated feedback system with a top quality player input.

And stone buildings we can build! Where is the next 3 D printer for building the perfect auditorium? :D

Do musicians need that much extra fine Sruti adjustment in between the standard Srutis - to require a generic Sruti instrument?? This tambura CD is weather proof as well and guaranteed to stay constant. It can be digitized now into App(s) not sure if that is already there! There are a host of tambura Apps out there! What about their quality/source?

P:S : Shashank really loved one 200 seater stone building, built as a city hall of a small suburb city, we used to hold concerts in Columbus, Ohio!

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by SrinathK »

Today on the phone we have some apps for the tambura - like tambura droid. For PC there is Your Tambura And there are videos on YouTube just dedicated to playing tambura sound tracks. Although in my experience the sound from these apps is not as beautiful as the radel sample, still it is very useful.

Metronomes are also available now as apps. We can even customize the beat patterns and sounds.

Before these apps came out, I had found an excellent metronome called "Fine Metronome", the 3.4 version was so good, it was capable of rendering any tala up to 64 beats in any nadai sub beat pattern that could be created according to your choice. It was not available in later versions That program no longer exists although I believe I have an old copy with me.

Only after that I felt like I could practice again.

Years back Dr. Vidyadhar Oke came up with the 22 shruti harmonium which produced absolutely perfect notes compared to the typical harmonium or keyboard which is tuned to equal temperament (and therefore all the notes are slightly off).

https://youtu.be/p_CBjW2zt1A - as it is handmade it is costly and you have to select a base shruti for S.

But fortunately today there are free MIDI software programs like "Just Intonation" Which can connect to any MIDI keyboard via USB and a stereo pin and if you choose Just Intonation instead of Equal Temperament, the software after detecting your keyboard can then let you play perfectly consonant notes from the keyboard.
Last edited by SrinathK on 20 Apr 2021, 11:07, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by SrinathK »

Also today there are browser addons (Chrome or Firefox) or addons in media players that will allow you to change the pitch of any recording by +/- 12 semitones, in other words, by a full octave. So any shruti sample can be transposed in a jiffy to any key suitable for the student. Apps can also do this.

Also even on YT there are facilities to slow down a recording to 0.5 or even 0.25x of original speed (and many players like VLC can slow down to any speed in between) which means any one who wants to keenly listen to complex phrases and brighas will find it much easier to do so and decode every note.

One can also use this speed change facility to identify all the wrong notes and oscillations in one's singing or playing and find out where to rectify them as such incorrect technique may not only result in poor shruti, but also be injurious to the voice or the fingers.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by msakella »

20210421:
In general, while concluding our Karnataka music concert all our musicians are used to sing or play one or two 'light-songs' (it is not light but sensitive music while all our Sangitakalanidhis and Padmashrees made our music insensitive)
and that is the power of Hindusthani music. In the same manner i never heard Hindusthani musicians singing one or two Karnataka music compositions while concluding their concert. WHY? These things will never even be discussed by all our Sangitakalanidhis and Padmashrees as they cannot properly look or think deep even into their own music leave alone others music.

In Hindustani music they predominantly use Swarmandal having raga-wise tuning in all their concerts. Can our Karnataka musicians do this???
No, they can't. They never think on those lines and do things to make our concerts more musical than magical!

My Akella's Tambura Shrutis are brought out to make things more musical in that direction. msakella

hnbhagavan
Posts: 1655
Joined: 21 Jun 2008, 22:06

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by hnbhagavan »

Dear Sir,

Bracketing all Sangitakalanidhis in one go as mediocre is extremely uncharitable.It is our practice to demean Carnatic musicians and put Hindustani musicians on a high pedestal.This happens even in food South Indian Food vs North Indian Food.
I am not as knowledgeable as msakella Sir.He must have his own reasons for such conclusions.
But we had a galaxy of stars MDR,KVN,TRS etc who were really masters in rendering our Music.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Flawless Shruti instruments to the poor aspirants

Post by msakella »

At my old age of 83, than writing lengthy passages
here, I would prefer to speak even though i am not that fluent in this language like you highly educated people (I am only a little matriculate, dear).
However, I shall try to convince you in my very limited language.

I have accompanied the great KVN. And great TRS was my very close friend having very regularly practised along with him and accompanied in many of his concerts when he was at Vijayawada.

As you wrote they are really masters in singing being mostly of performance perspective, no doubt, dear.
I always feel that the teacher is more knowledgeable, dutiful and reliable to the society than a parasitical performer. Moreover, both as a professional teacher and professional performer too
i never need to demean anybody. But, while logically bringing out the facts, with my very limited vocabulary, my language may be harsh, I can't help!
Truth is always bitter. However, i certainly differ with all others in defining the 'teacher'.

Being the disciple of Nedunuri and the ardent follower of MSG i have a Hindusthani higher Shruti-sense also, I can't help!

In my post i wrote all facts only and i am unable to find what made you unhappy. msakella

Ranganayaki
Posts: 1760
Joined: 02 Jan 2011, 06:23

Re: Tuning the Shadjam to C or F?

Post by Ranganayaki »

Gaanaamrutha wrote: 19 Apr 2021, 21:43
So, my request is, why is it like this, the switch in the nomenclature....the SaariNi string is set to E or F in the tuner, and then Panchamam becomes B or C.
Has this question been answered? I don’t think so. I was hoping to understand the question from the answer.
As I know, as per the western system, the equivalent for Shadjam is C and Panchamam is E.
I don’t know if I am missing something here. But if shadam is C, Panchamam will be G and not E.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Tuning the Shadjam to C or F?

Post by SrinathK »

Gaanaamrutha wrote: 19 Apr 2021, 21:43 Hello!

I have often heard that while tuning Veena, one sets the tuner to E or F and then set the SaariNi string to this Shruti. Then the Panchama would be B or C.

As I know, as per the western system, the equivalent for Shadjam is C and Panchamam is E.

So, my request is, why is it like this, the switch in the nomenclature....the SaariNi string is set to E or F in the tuner, and then Panchamam becomes B or C.

I look forward to the clarification. I thank you in advance.

Regards,
Gaanaamrutha
Western music runs on absolute pitch where each note from A to G has a specific frequency. For example A4 = 440 HZ (A4 stands for the A of the 4th octave in a grand piano. The octave numbers start from C - C0, C1, etc to C8), which is the standard from where all other notes are Tuned. Accordingly every instrument is set up with this as the base. Their Vocal music also is based on absolute pitch. Hence it is not possible for all singers to sing all the repertoire, only what their voice can cover.

Indian music is all about relative pitch. S is chosen to be any frequency as per the convenience of the singer or player. S may be chosen at any note from A to G and in between and all other swaras will be played relative to S. Because of this, in our music, the whole repertoire is available to everyone.

In some books S is set to C because it is convenient to notate on a piano or a staff. A raga like sankarabharanam can be notated with no sharp or flat marks being the scale of C major. But this is not mandatory and any note can be chosen as S. Using G for S will allow CM songs to be notated easily on a staff with treble clef (the most popular form of staff notation, used for violin).

I also don't see how P is E when S is C? If S is set to C, P must be at G. If P is set to E, then S must be at A. Generally violin or veena is tuned to E and so S will be at E and P will be at B. If it is tuned to some other pitch, then S and P will change their absolute positions accordingly.

Nick H
Posts: 9379
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Tuning the Shadjam to C or F?

Post by Nick H »

SrinathK wrote: 25 Apr 2021, 10:20Their Vocal music also is based on absolute pitch. Hence it is not possible for all singers to sing all the repertoire, only what their voice can cover.
I don't think it is so restricted. Compositions may well be written with certain voices in mind, and, of course, compositions for multiple voices certainly are, but they are not really pitch specific. You can take any western melody, whether it was written for the double bass or the piccolo, and sing it (assuming one has sufficient range) to suit you. Not only can you sing it in your comfortable octave, but you can go further and change the key. As with Indian music, what counts, ultimately, is the intervals, because if you change them, you change the tune. But, I guess that even carnatic musicians must do this when, for instance, they sing in groups, and a comfortable-compromise sruthi has to be found.

Standard pitch is only a reference point, and a standard that allows numerous different instruments to play together without great tuning difficulties. More: the world's orchestras each choose their own standard, and many do not choose A=440.

Post Reply