How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
sankark
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

@shankarank : one only hopes that you continue to write like the last post.

sankark
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

vedic rituals: Thiruvalluvar says அவி சொரிந்து ஆயிரம் வேட்டலின் too. But that's a comparison to say not killing for food is far better than vElvi. He isn't asking to stop the ritual/practice. The point of rituals/tradition is to keep it alive. Let that not rot.

A grihya hOmam on 13th day for example forces a family to focus on ritual and come out of the sorrow of losing kith &kin. To move on with life.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-50
@sankark
" why no clamor for SS / MD"---
possibly because, Thyagaraja Swami had more than 35 disciples. and taught over a very long period of nearly 50 years. So very illustrious that even SS sent his son Subbaraya Sastry to learn under the Sathguru. He never traveled much outside his place. Disciples came from KeraLa and Andhra. too. It was the direct and second generation disciples of Swamy who took CM to the public . If we prepare a list of direct disciples of Thyagaraja Swami and the second and third generation disciples, it will run into hundreds. SS did not have that many. MD was at best a family tree. ..Thus, around 1900, CM was synonymous with Sathguru.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-52
@sankark
VaLLuvar tried to synthesize the best of Vedic Brahminism and Jainism. of his times. Even in 600 BC, almost 50% of Vedic brahmins had accepted the absolute non-violence of Gauthama Buddha and Mahavira. (Kosambi).
Since VaLLuvar is being quoted , there are hundreds of quotes from him which ridicule external symbols and practices - 'Neettalum Mazhitthalum vaeNda'.
" anthaNar enboar aRavor!
evvuyirkum chenthaNmai pooNdu ozhukalaan'
( people who treat all living beings with kindness and fairness are the JUST people.. ) 'anthaNar here may refer to jain monks.
During the Sangam period ( 200 BC to 200 AD)- corresponding exactly to the Sathavahana Dynasty rule in Decaan ( Andhra, Telengana, Southern Madhyapradesh, KarNatka, Maharashtra), jain, buddhist and Vedic brahmin missionaries did there propaganda work 'Dravida Sangam ' is said to have been set up by a Jain monk. All the Five big kavya ( kaappiyangal) were either Jain or Buddhist.
The kings patronized the Vedic people but the common people were all jains / Buddhists. This was the condition in entire tamil country and deccan. upto the emergence of Gupta. Only after 600 AD, Bakthi movement asserted itself against all the above three from North . The 'ainthiNai' religion of the Tamils became the religion of the people since then.

( An instance of a religious ideology being re-asserted by people's language)
Jains resided in caves and served the common people in medicine and education.
According to Tholkaappiyam, the Vedic brahmins of that period had only six life-activities..
1) katral - learning
2) kaRpitthal - teaching
3) dhaanam peruthal - getting gifts
4) dhaanam seythal - giving gifts
5) vaeLvi seythal - performing ritual agni oblations' ( may be including 'cow sacrifice! ( there is a telling passage in MaNimekalai)
6) vaeLvi seyvitthal ( being the priest for the aristocrats and rich in their ritual oblations.
-----
Significantly, there is no mention about socially productive labour especially manual labour1 in agriculture and crafts.
Sometimes, NCERT books are useful to shatter the myths.
Even to this day, the Vedic Advaitic mutts have no role in the Saivite, vaishnavite and other temples of tamil country.

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

SrI dIkshitar's vizha is celebrated in small way at eTTayapuram and of late some young musicians in concert circuit are going there. I am not privy to earlier years that much and may be musicians did go there. That is not as cezhippu (fertile) as the delta region , in fact arid! Hence not much involvement of locals. I know some near relatives from West nellai who make it there every year to sing.

SrI dIkshitar must have left Tanjore right after the Serfoji's weakening period. If Tanjore were not so weak and dIkshitar had stayed back, may be history of his music would be different. Who knows? He is somebody who needed endowment and that is what rasikas and patrons of today must realize.

Without some endowment even Sri tyAgarAja could not have done what he did!

sankark
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 23 Feb 2021, 13:37Without some endowment even Sri tyAgarAja could not have done what he did!
Sri T was a nadhayOgi that had no need for an endowment, nor wife/kid, and such human needs. If you hadn't realised that, what can one do except take to Twitter/fb and call out your blasphemic thought with #TWasNadhaYogi and bray for your cancellation (woke, woke, woke).

:evil: :twisted:

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

Not you, but to the wokes : nAda yOgi - I understand. But SarIram manuShya SarIram tAnE? He had a place to stay and he was not in the forest. That was grant from erstwhile king to his forefathers. Lets just acknowledge that!

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

This is from the First of Jayadeva Ashtapathi
-----------------------------------------
") O Kesava! O Lord of the universe! O Lord Hari, who have assumed the form of Buddha! All glories to You! O Buddha of compassionate heart, you decry the slaughtering of poor animals performed according to the rules of Vedic sacrifice
-----------------------------------------------------
Jayadeva- Orissa- around 1000 AD
Imperial Chozha period? -expedition to Bengal along the East Coast?
Last edited by RSR on 23 Feb 2021, 23:31, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

P-56
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Thyagaraja Swami's forefathers were granted a house and some paddy fields also. by the king. He had a steady and growing number of very loyal students. His personal needs were very few. His 'unchavrutthi' was a tradition. In those times, 1750-1850 ( East India Company rule), 'gurukula vaasam' meant that the students will stay with the Guru's household and will be fed by him.
The yield from his lands must have been used for that. He is not known to have received any fees nor to have had a patron.
That must have been the way of learning CM even in the decades from 1850 to 1920

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

The presence and attention of students and a vibrant gurukulam itself is endowment in those days. Any services they render is part of the same. Their presence will encourage somebody to step in, in the event of resource constraints. In a related way, different stream : Even now, few Srauta mahatmas are there in the villages, I suppose they will be endowed by somebody!

Today you cannot get students with that type of commitment. So in a sense that aspect of endowment is strained.

There ain't a free lunch! The greats will pursue their path irrespective. But for us to receive the benefit, we need to provide endowment of some sort.

The so called fees demanded by musicians today is very reasonable for most people. It may have been out of reach in 70s. Lets not create artificial constraints and expectations!

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

In the olden days, supporting and encouraging talented artistes was done by the kings, zamindars, merchants and landlords.
Times have changed. Compared to 1857, we now have nearly 1000 institutes of Higher Leraning not to mention thousands more of schools all over the South.
If we take a statistical survey of literacy among the people in the age group, 10 to 20, it will be close to 100 %.
This is the greatest achievement of the last sixty years. and it was done by Government.
The latest budget here has made a substantial allocation for on-line education and made computer-literacy compulsory in schools! In Andhra, English has been made compulsory.
These are true democratic moves and far-sighted in breaking the monopoly of the traditionally privileged in getting the fruits of learning.
We do teach basic sciences and technology. Was there not a time when computer training centers sprang up like mushrooms all over the land? It did provide skilled resources .
Teaching CM compulsorily to school children irrespective of their caste and class ( without any examination) is not against tuition. as a means of livelihood. May be it will give opportunity to thousands to serve as fairly well-paid teachers.
I think, enough has been said on the main theme of this thread.
over,

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 22 Feb 2021, 19:06 p-48
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This thread is not about the concert format at all. It is about the best way to pay homage to Thyagaraja Swami. Naturally, any such function should comprise of singing his compositions plainly as created by him.
That rules out 'Manodharma' sangeetham in the fubction's platform.
The idea that singing a composition does not involve manOdharma is false. Individual performances that follow do embed that.
RSR wrote: 22 Feb 2021, 19:06 I believe that Thyagaraja Swami 's compositions are a combination of Music as an art and lyrics as a guide to personal ethics and anti-casteism, . The Nama Sankeerthanam movement never discriminated against any community.

I cannot understand why anyone should object to the idea of teaching classical music to the agricultural community through the simple compositions of Thyagaraja Swami.
If thousands if not lakhs of children, youth and elders of the agricultural community of the area, irrespective of their caste , participate not just as onlookers but as performers of Swami's compositions in group singing, and if we can make it happen in a decade, there can be no better homage.

Typical revisionism to suit one's caste and class approach.
Nothing whatever to do with the great idealists and seers.

Discrimination is a term used in the context of institution or imperial setup. No such thing ever existed in the context of what you are discussing. Groups of people were free to adopt their ways, but some times group affinity and sense of relation or sense of belonging may act as impediments. As much as you decry "Caste" which is a racial term imposed on us, the jAti system also had social capital built into it, and jAtis formed their own quasi-institutions. Many of them do have their maTams. And indeed they have patronized music. It is the strength of those that determined what the associated people could adopt.

We just use euphemisms like "cultivating communities" to hide the complexity and vitriolic political discourse that have done immense damage to the situation, where they were better positioned before to get improvements, but lost it.

And you say onlookers! They don't listen? They have ears. Well people are busy doing what they are doing in all "jAtis" and not every one can open their ears.

As regards your question on vaishNava followers of various communities in Western belt of tamizhnADu, that region lacked the strong brahmadEya influence that Tanjore had. Even in Thirunelveli and Travancore it could percolate due to patronage of erstwhile vassal kings. Or at least it has to be an active vibrant temple town like Kanchi. While brahmadEya itself is not directly related to music practice, support for music is also done in the context of supporting things like that. And brahmins held the Sastra knowledge, even if they did not perform!

The west is sort of isolated. We have a Thiru PeriyasAmi Thooran(He is a Saivaite though) or others occasionally come from there. Or a Sri C. RAjagOpAlAccAriyAr. avar nATTukkum, pATTukum kurai vaikkavillai(didn't leave a deficiency for that region or music). He composed at least one song I know :D . I tell you among tamizh rasikas, that one song beats everything and makes the day! Nothing else matters. :D

That tells you it is not any "bhakti" movement that is the basis of this, even though that makes for exalted projection.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-62
----
1) I have very carefully avoided the use of the term 'caste' . but the reality is that our society in thamizhnaadu is entirely revolving around castes. Fortunately, there are more than 20 communities competing and complimenting. To name a few of the agricultural communities, there are yadavs, vanniyars, kaLLars, udayars, gounders, maravars, and nadars, among the bc. and three majoe communities among the depressed classes. The cauvery delta has a stunning majority of these bc and sc communities. close to 85 %. The CM narrative of the brahmin and Isai-Vellalar group in Tanjore delta ( even in the early decades of last century -1900-1940- were numerically meager),always spins around these. Nagarathars may be patrons but how many of them are artistes? why so?theie pre-ocupations are elsewhere. .

it was only the saiva-non-brahmin communities like pillais, mudaliyars, and nagarathaars that have the mutts. and they foster pre-cm classical music mainly of temples. and hardly in telugu.
The cultivating communities had none.

--------------------
2) western ghats region- of naicker , rajus, --your data is wrong. Srivilliputhur, Rajapalayam, sankaran koil, even kayattar, .
students of tamil history may know about 'chinnamnur copper plates' and the fertile lands of north-flowing' vaigai river (!), before the vaigai dam. vembathur was renowned even in 1800, for ita musicians -contemporaries of maha vaidyanatha sivan, ssp author and patnam.
is there any cm activity in those areas after the zamin abolition? no.
was any attempt made to teach the really bc and sc communities ?
no.
Even HMB found running the cm school at Madurai, difficult. It was short-lived.
Only the state government can accomplish this huge task.. Educating the majority of poorer bc and sc agricultural communities in science, literature, civics and ethics. and classical music.
Thamizhnaadu is not Chennai . or mylai. or adyar.
Think out of the box.

The pseudo-progressive

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

The state government are already running a music university! What prevents them from extending that down to the primary education? So nothing in law prevented them in engaging in the teaching and propagation of traditional music! if there was anything, they would not be doing what they are doing? So what are they waiting for?

Germany defied and falsified all theories of social / political revolutions under economic breakdown! ;)

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-64
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@shankarank
1) why cannot esteemed forum members campaign and advice the TN govt to introduce CM and Thyagaraja kruthis in primary schools all over the state? - compulsory subject without examination. Do we not have sports, crafts, without examination.?

2) That would be different from music schools
.
3) Valmiki RaamayaNam and Mahabaaratham are the greatest epics of India. Bagavatham is a later addition. RamAyaNam teaches very good ethical values. rather than the other works.
No 'Samayanithi' saadhinchane stuff.

4) Thyagaraja Swami followed Badrachalam Raamadasu in his Rama Bakthi saamraajyam.

5) There is a lovely reference to Rama's discussion at Dhanushkodi
( aha naanooru)

6) Silappathikaaram also refers to Lord Rama through Kavunthi AdikaL, a lady jain bikkuNi

7) Who among the real Tamils has not heard and read atleast a few passages from Kamba RaamaayaNam? Unmatched literary excellence
.
8) Has not Arunachala Kavi created his Rama Naatakam for village people?

9) Have not many vocalists even among the present generation rendered songs from AruNaachala Kavi?

10) Has not Smt.MS rendered a few from Kamba RaamaayaNam?

11) Had not an unmatched freedom fighter, reformist, socialist, orator and 'red' leader Com. P.Jeevaanandham given great many public speeches in his political rallies on RaamaayaNam, which were so spell-binding, that even Kalaignar had confessed to have listened covering his identity?

12) Would it not be an effective antidote to the ethical degeneration we see all around us?

13) Will it not be a binding factor of all the common people in the states of TN, Andhra and Telengana?

14) By learning Telugu through these kru'this, will not the younger generation be exposed to Shyama Sastry also?
============================================
15) As for the un-related , arrogant and ignorant quip and cavemen
toolkit about Germany's HISTORY, people have not forgotten the horrors of the second world war, and the great victory of FDR and Soviet forces over the Nazi hordes. Ask today's Angela Marcel , what she thinks of neo-nazis in Germany. Why-...…. ask your own neighbors in USA. Learn History. Get out of your 'crossbelt-american diaspora ghetto'
---------------------------------------------------. .
Mere sophistry posing as sophistication.
---------------------------------------------------

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

You are viewing things in their own ghetto classifications. While the manifestation of an ideology in it's full form is one thing, there are underlying civilizational factors , things that are not typically viewed as controversial, that underlies how each culture conducts itself. Here I am referring to the positive side. I only stated that to point out how invalid sociological theories are , that claim universality to themselves.

And you have reduced SrI tyAgarAja's acceptability to the acceptability of "Ram" as an icon in tamizh land. That indicates the shallow and cosmetic approaches in our discourse.

What about other states? In Karnataka do they do this? In Maharashtra do they teach abhangs? In the north Surdas, tulsi ramayan and Kabir? What about Andhra? Bengal - Rabindra sangeeth?
Last edited by shankarank on 28 Feb 2021, 00:53, edited 1 time in total.

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 10:26 Why-...…. ask your own neighbors in USA. Learn History. Get out of your 'crossbelt-american diaspora ghetto'
Well, well as regards neighbours you never know what is hiding these days given the happenings recently. And cosmopolitanism means you don't know your neighbor. We only connect as consumers via amazon, when we read product reviews.

And that second thing, cross belt from tamilnad are one of the most educated, enlightened, liberal, world citizens , secular you can find. They never would think deeply about such issues. And hence there is no such ghetto. Some devout vaishNavas are exempt from this.

I am also secular, if secular means worldly pleasures! But if it acts as a staging area to position cultural heritage and domesticate it, I would argue with that.

The US constitution or independence declaration swears " one nation under god". But they are careful when it comes to music and art. That needs to be kept away from challenging the ideological establishment, which the US constitutional system fronts, even though the latter is deemed secular.
shankarank wrote: 27 Feb 2021, 00:35The state government are already running a music university! What prevents them from extending that down to the primary education?
Now with that background lets answer this question as to why at college and why not at primary school. You are positioning this as an agenda for teaching ethics. Whereas the intellectual establishment along with other socio political forces post independence know that: children raised with music will also sense the metaphysics of the culture and challenge the former's own narratives. You should have heard the old saying: "kuzhandaiyum deivamum onRu" - the child is closer to the divine!

By the time of college, it is an elective major field of study, by the student and they are sufficiently alienated ( unless the family gave them alternative grounding) and unhinged , so the "art" education can be provided harmlessly.

It also allows them tick the boxes as regards support for "Indian" music which mostly if anything feeds labor into popular entertainment industry.

So this is not about "atheism" Vs. "theism". This is a calculated purge of a civilization under the aegis of a constitutional system which also in it's undercurrent inherits the alien ideological worldview. This is clash of civilizations and the battlegrounds are subtle and sublime!

You need to do the pUrva paksh correctly.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

@shankarank

1)Leaving aside the Boat song kruthis, of doubtful authorship, almost 90% of Thyagaraja Swami kruthis are about Lord Ramachandra.
and even the songs on Kovur and Thiruvotriyur deities and even Srirangam and Lalgudi were composed very late in his life during his tour at the invitation of Upanishad Swamy of Kanchipuram.
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2) Thulasidas Ramayanam is the most well-known and venerated epic-retold in the most populous state of India, the Uttar Pradesh
If you have read ' Towards Freedom', ( autobiography) of Jawaharlal, it was the battle cry of the Kisan Movement of 1920's in UP. led by Jawahar himself in person.
-----------------------------------------------------
3) Thyagaraja Swami, 's inspiration, the Naama Sankeerthanam movement in Tanjore delta , was centered around RaamAyNnam.
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4) There is a subtle difference between Vaishnava movement based on RamaayaNam and the one based on Mahabaratham and Gita and the one based on Baagavatham -most parts and finally Baagavatham of Rasa Kreeda. The first two are backed by the original epics,
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5) Ever heard of Liberation Theology of Latin America? All ethical values are derived from Religion. It is the orthodox priestly class of all the great religions who corrupted them and used religious orthodoxy as a weapon against common people.
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Hippies have no country. True Internationalists!
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As for the other states, nowhere else is crude atheism prevalent.
except in cinema -infected cities and among 'yippies'. That is why TN needs a conscious effort. by Government . And sundahara Thelungu of Baarathy, and songs of Thyagaraja are so full of Sanskrit terms that may be, it is best method to familiarize Sanskrit to the youngest children all over TN. .
How about Ramanavami sabha in Bangalore?

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

@RSR p#68 Since you talked about the state intervening to make music compulsory in schools I asked in p#64 whether the state run schools in other states have any such program or curriculum related to their own heritage music? You did not answer that , but went on a tangent to something else.

Kamba RAmAyaNam is venerated in TN including by self proclaimed atheists. Doesn't mean a thing. And atheism has no sense or meaning in Bharatam. We don't spray beliefs here! So there is no reason to proclaim anything. If they want to claim atheism they should do so against other alien faiths. Everything else said on this matter by anybody is a misunderstanding or lack of understanding on how so much of alien concepts have percolated into our discourse and corrupted our language itself! A new language has been imposed on us. If you really look for "religions" by converting what is actually heritage into religious doctrines, you will have 400 distinct religions or so in BhAratam!

Now answer my question. Before TN should intervene to make SrI tyAgarAjA compulsory in schools, what have other states, where there ain't any self proclaimed "atheists", done to make their heritage music compulsory?? What if any prevents them?

RamAyaNa and ethics:
1. pitru vAkya paripAlanam
Indian sea faring traders had a such a reputation with far east and near east, that the son would fulfil any debt or pending transaction without fail , if father had passed away as it would be six months or so before they can reach back the same port. "Credibility in business"

2. Stability theory in management
A small mishap or mistake can destabilize a large institution or organization. What just one Woman said to the other destabilized an entire Rajya leading to King's death.

3. Societal stability
The value of one man and one woman relationship was first enunciated here.

You see , you will elevate the discourse to civilizational level. Instead it is now story : Ram went to forest and killed Ravana and brought back his wife. And that is also a myth. None other than SubrahmaNya Bharathy - kurangu kaDalai taNDuvatum(Monkey jumping across a sea), anil (Squirrel) paalam kaTTuvatum (building a bridge) karpanai (imagination) enakkaNDEn.

And there was a musician in e-mambalam panagal park lecture who made fun of neraval being done @ kapi vAriti dATTuna and mistranslated kaliki rOTa kaTTuna as Squirril building a bridge :lol: . A svaraprastAram will end up as pa-da mA kapi - I am monkey!! he surmised :lol:

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-69
@shankarank

1) The answer to your question is 'no. As CM is music of the four Southern states,
These states all had renowned and effective social reformers. but based on Religion. and not management-speak.
Nothing wrong with myths. if used for good purpose.

a) KeraLa's reformer was Sri.NaraayaNa guru who established many Siva temples.
. And the deity of Kerala is Padhmanaabaswami of Trivandrum from hoary past. EKNayanaar (ex-cm) presented the copy of Gita when he met the Pope at Vatican, saying that Gita is the Bible of India.
Swathi ThiruNaaL has sung on Rama. .
b) The music tradition of Karnataka is that of Dasa saint composers. Even without formal music education, they are imbibing the best social values.
c) Thirumalai Venkateswara is the deity for Andhra families and of late Annamayya kruthis are getting known widely.

In Telengana, likewise, Badrachalam Ramadasu songs are the standard.
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Granted that so far , the state govts have not made Thyagaraja kruthis compulsory in schools. Andhra and Telengana can easily do that . as it is their mother tongue.
But rather difficult in predent-day TN. but not impossible if a suggestion is made.
The question to be asked is if the suggestion is good for society.

If there is no examination in Thyagaraja kruthi and Telugu, most people will endorse. The attempt should be made
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Your story line is wrong.

Hanuman is 'sundharan' and the most blemishless in Raamaayanam.
Many so-called men are daily disproving Darwin's theory of evolution. mere 'human' beings in form but varaaham in their tastes.
---
If we refuse to sing any kruthi based on mythology, only the 'romantic' film songs will remain. and perhaps the jaavaLis

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 28 Feb 2021, 21:52 1) The answer to your question is 'no. As CM is music of the four Southern states,
Why you have suddenly confined to CM, when you enlarged into Bhakti movement and all that? Whatever be the actual historical classification of those, religious etc., why can't they simply treat it as heritage and include it in curriculum. That will reinforce what the child may already get elsewhere, that these are legitimate things to be cherished. What the child is getting is, one narrative in private space and cultural spaces and a counter narrative based on critical theories at school!

Rationalists (you can hear them mocking!) here are not able to reconcile a "pittA pirai sUDi" ( Moon adorning Siva's forehead) described in tEvArams with [:cough:] a Neil Amstrong who landed on it, in a different classroom. So the former already are part of curriculum as literature , not music!

So you will have to deal with such silliness!

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 p-62
----
. Nagarathars may be patrons but how many of them are artistes? why so?theie pre-ocupations are elsewhere. .
Even the current patron ( not from nagarathar) Dr. Nalli , but from weaving (Padmashali as per Wikipedia) has mentioned that all of his family will only watch drams and not inclined to music. Their mother toungue may be Telugu in fact!
RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 --------------------
2) western ghats region- of naicker , rajus, --your data is wrong. Srivilliputhur, Rajapalayam, sankaran koil, even kayattar, .
That is not really the West I was talking about, that is too thin a belt. RajapALayam only had the Rajas (Madras cements) that are devotees of Sringeri mutt. No other affiliation to traditions that I aware of.

What with Srivilliputtur? You tell me! Many legendary musicians recall performing there in recent times! You know even a strong sampradaya like Sri VaishNavism there could not absorb music. What could be the reason?

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 students of tamil history may know about 'chinnamnur copper plates' and the fertile lands of north-flowing' vaigai river (!), before the vaigai dam. vembathur was renowned even in 1800, for ita musicians -contemporaries of maha vaidyanatha sivan, ssp author and patnam.
I have heard of an Andipatti Zamindar who was a patron of music. I see that he patronized RR Sabha in Trichy.

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 is there any cm activity in those areas after the zamin abolition? no.
was any attempt made to teach the really bc and sc communities ?
no.
We know what happened around that! And when privy purposes were abolished. Who took over the education system of the country? Well in that region, a cultivating person cannot speak much first and then comes tamizh! Musicians hailing from there must have gravitated to other places. As regards the telugu people who may be there, that is very spotty. Naickanur is an appendage to many places. My Grandpa had served in railways and was posted there. During my childhood days we had farming relationships. It is very remote and animal sacrifice type of old fashioned worship continues there.

Lakshmana Suri and vaTRirAyiruppu are mentioned somewhere! Didn't HMB escape from there to Thiruvaiyaru? he was asked NOT to pursue music!
RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2021, 11:10 Even HMB found running the cm school at Madurai, difficult. It was short-lived.
...... Thamizhnaadu is not Chennai . or mylai. or adyar.
Think out of the box.
HMB's time is too late in the game!

After the zamin abolition, the new oppressors are the lawyers who supported the music. Even the Madurai legal fraternity would gravitate to the capital city. When I call lawyers, oppressors, does it sting? On the one hand we need all the elites to front and run the country, but we bash them if they pursue higher goals like music using their own resources. Somehow a picture has been created that only cultivators own the country. Don't forget there are jawans too! Kisan/Jawan are complimentary!

And in peace time who can pursue soft power of the state? The elites?

ram1999
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by ram1999 »

How to hijack any thread .....

learn from ShankaranK and RSR.
The subject topic and the discussions seem to have no relevance. Not sure what is the objective of these discussions :? :? :? :?

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

Have some patience! We are still trying to figure out who to bring to make a worthy homage to the saint. All because of this year's disastrous performance. I have made my pitch! But since it touched on vedas and yagnas, alternative counter agendas entered the discussion.

But we never know:
https://www.thehindu.com/features/frida ... 340068.ece

In fact, a joke used to do the rounds a few years ago, that while buses and cars were plying full to Tiruvaiyaru, one bus carried a lone, troubled-looking man travelling in the opposite direction. On enquiry, it was found that the man was Tyagaraja, who was fleeing the onslaught of good, bad and indifferent musical fare offered on his Aradhana!

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-74
Thyagaraja Swami would have been travelling in opposite direction, in dismay and disgust, surely.
People 'celebrate' birthdays . ( all this silk sarees, glittering diamonds, socializing, 'budding romances' , flirting -- a common feature in many a wedding occasion. and the poor vocalist , however eminent he might be, singing for gold ,to an audience, hardly listening! )
Aaraadhanaa day is not 'celebrated'. It is an occasion for paying homage and the day is the one on which Sathguru reached the heavenly ..feet of his Lord.... Aalaap should not be allowed.
Funny that the day has been vandalized as a replica of MA sabha culture- sumptuous feast
In the olden days just prior to Swami's time, , many a sankeerthanam function would have given just a handful of 'sundal'.to the attendees,
There can be 'Anna dhaanam' but only to the very poor of the area. Even In a sacred spot of burial/cremation ground, -- the 'custodians of culture' are intent only on 'feast' to their palette and 'eyes'
Pandaripuram yaathra groups deserve our emulation.

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

It is not just during swami's days. Thyagaraja utsavam in most other places will also have the same. 10Kg of sundal would be a challenge to raise funds for. But you also need to consider, an hungry stomach on any day is just that. pasi vandiDa pattum parandiDum. So one's affluence is irrelevant. Yeah they could reduce the opulence a bit and feed more of the poor as you say.

But then affluence of people mean, that increasingly many cannot eat anymore this kind of mass prepared food. I have heard stories of vidvans cutting the visit short to the hour by staging themselves in Tanjore hotels. "ManjappoDiyai pOTTu viDuvArkaL" goes the expression. ManjappoDi is an euphemism for the sAmbAr poDi in some tamizh parlance.

Increasingly that indicates how much people can get distanced from village life and tradition or vice versa, the village itself changes so much that people distanced from it could not keep up with it. They cannot bear the food taste anymore.

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 16 Feb 2021, 14:06 p-36
@shankarank

2) There is a very sizeable telugu-knowing population in Tamilnadu , especially in Chennai and western ghat districts of the state. It also so happens that they are all Vaishnavite in religious belief. Just wondering why they are not learning CM and participating in Thyagaraja Aaraadhanai.

3) As for the native Thamizh speaking peasant communities, both land-owning and landless, it has never been easy to learn the rudiments of Carnatic compositions of Thyagaraja for the last 150 years.
Karnataka celebrates Purandhradasa festival and common people participate with enthusiasm as there is no language barrier.
The concept of Language

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdUbIlwHRkY

As you mentioned hippies have no nation, he in his political side of things drew upon the hippie counter culture as well to protest against Vietnam War. Hippies have been friends of Indian culture and have been interested in music as well.

Leaving aside his political dissent and posturing, we have to at least consider his subject area expertise somewhat, as he is the most quoted/cited, third only after Shakespeare and Bible in all of academic literature.

A nation state is a modern idea - never existed in bharatam raShTram. Pilgrims would cross 500 janapadas with so many different bhashas between Kashi / Rameswaram , but the country was a rashTrA. The tIrthas in both places dwarf the respective deities in importance, so much so that many households don't want to mention the two places due to their association with ancestral rites. The word tIrtha is an adjunct to Sanyasis as well , same as vAri in tamizh - found that recently - kirubAnanda vAriyAr. Swami Omkaranananda's statement was tweeted for the same. vAri meant income ( varuvAi from harvest!)

So there goes French! The most sought after by College graduates! I don't know how many them really use it, just because it is an some imagined alternate to English , people learn it. They stay for a week in Paris too , the students , to check off an Ivy league requirement. That much farce is enacted in the name of a language!

The only reason we are conversing in English here, is because , post Industrial revolution, bloody, much of legal, medicine and technical writings are in English and news is widely published in English - the news that matters from corridors of power. Not the bloody literature and class or anything! Interesting we call modern medicine, English medicine ( English marundu) , but never refer to our constitution as English constitution.

So the western intellectual thesis, culmination of their enlightenment: "In terms of intelligibility or normal human conversation, there is nothing called a (standardized) language!!"

And what would be the counter to the stance of Chomsky on languages? What else? Tamizh which had many countries within itself, many dialects within itself, where it's poets were status above the kings. The most cherished of languages one can find.

And Samskrta, which is not a spoken language (spoken sanskrit is an oxymoron!) , but language of kavyas, sutras and Sastras. A language that carries so many meanings for words has to be expounded in other Prakrits and cannot be spoken. And it carries the sacredness that underlies the very concept of BhAratam RAshTram. Even pANini says if you want to know the meaning of word, go to people who speak it. And many PrAkrits flourished and Samskrta was never imposed!

And many of the Indian languages cannot stand on their own, when words rooted to Samskrta are removed from them!

The kritis and kIrtanas are not in a "language". They are sUtra forms you can consider as. They try to express something in fewer words , but a direct translation of the passage would mean not much unless lot of associated information is expounded upon.

And in a concert, you should be striving to pronounce Telugu or more importantly express the word splits or conjunctions correctly , NOT because , bloody, some Telugu known people are sitting around in the audience and may get offended! Nonsense. That is an anthropological reasoning, reducing a kIrtana, to the level of a property of a group of "human bodies"!!

Pardon my rudeness, I have to use to force my point.

You strive to do it because, they are sacred heritage of our ancestors and civilization!

sankark
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by sankark »

shankarank wrote: 08 Mar 2021, 01:57 You strive to do it because, they are sacred heritage of our ancestors and civilization!
Ancestors & civilization also gave this gem: "pazhayana kazhidhalum pudhiyana pugudhalum vazhuvala kAla vagaiyinAnE" - that the old gets casted away and the new arises is just the nature of passage of time. So the sense of sacredness attached to certain things and practices also evolves. What was considered sacred in 1700's is not same in 1900's need not be so in 2100's or 2300's and so on.

Getting that imbued as the most important virtue from the Indian cultural milieu would reduce much of the angst, worldwide. Except ofcourse 3 sexes and infinite genders thingie.

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

If you are so clear about shedding old and bringing new, then tell us what new has been built, how it is great and why there is so much angst about loss of musical tradition etc. The forms can change according to people's body evolution, including tastes. And the evolution is continuous and never purges old things totally! That is done by people who invade and destroy civilizations.

Also if there is a claim that we are more enlightened with more information to process than our ancestors, we then have to justify that claim by processing lot of old information too along with new! We owe it to ourselves to debate and seek substance.

Concept of sacredness of things like sound cannot change!

shankarank
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

Now this should be non-controversial! We need to ask the state governments to include a short story on ( no not Sri tyAgarAja, or Sri dIskhitar) , but about Smt. M.S Subbalakshmi ( if not already!) and other legends like Lata Mangeshkar, SPB, Jesudas, Dr BMK, Bhimsen Joshi, Bismillah Khan, in their local language books under the "kala" section.

About their contributions to music and something related to the local language also if relevant - like MSS singing silapadikAram etc.

I checked the 9th grade book https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J4FbQq ... DaWiJ/view
there is an article on music by this DJ - which talks about how music is beyond language. Shelve this article , instead it should be about how language is music and what is isai-tamizh!

The tamizh books can include Thiru Rajarathinam , Dandapani Desikar etc. Pick the top popular legends as every musician cannot be accomodated! Unsavory details about personal lives should be avoided. If a student raises critical questions, teachers should be trained to handle them.

This can be distributed in various grades 6th through 10th - where the local language education is mandatory. More musicians like Semmangudi Srinivasa Iyer , Madurai Mani Iyer, GNB can be included in other grades.

If certain schools don't teach the local language, then their English curriculum should have in in their chapters.

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

@shankarank
About your latest 3 posts in this thread. They are not relevant to the title of this thread at all
My stand is very clear. To reiterate,

1) CM is solidly based on the works of Thyagaraja and Shyama Sastri
.
2) If we want to preserve CM in Thamizh country, , we should make It widely available to crores of people in TamizhNadu. irrespective of caste and occupation. , not just the 'forward' and 'Isai velaaLar' communities but to other really numerous communities engaged in agriculture, crafts and other occupations, including the oppresse calasses.
.
3) This is a formidable challenge as unlike in neighboring states, where the CM kru'this are in the respective language of the state,
there may be considerable opposition to Telugu kruthis being taught to all the school children as a compulsory subject. (even if no examination) in ThamizhNadu.

4) But the saving grace is that the major political forces here are rooting for 'Dravidian' identity , and not exclusively for Tamizh identity.
and so may not be all that averse to Telugu and Kannada.

5) Rightly or wrongly, Sanskrit is perceived as the language of Brahminical caste superiority and oppression. but the other Dravidian languages are not considered so.

6) Moreover, the more and most important tenet is that CM is not just an ART, but a means for spiritual realization of unity of all beings and 'ondrae kulam, oruvane dhevan', - 'we are all of one community and there is only one almighty God for us. ---'Hum sab ko malik aek hai'. Thus, essentially, it is a vehicle for social equality and eradication of caste. There could not be and should not be any
ATHEISTIC and personal and banal 'love' theme peddled as Carnatic music . ( PS did enormous and irrevocable damage to Thyagaraja Swami's Naadha thanumanisam sankaram' by creating 'kaadhal kani rasame! ) in the same tune.

7) The enormous and difficult task of taking not just CM but CM
as expounded by SS and TS ( based on devotion to deity) can be done by the Government only.
Not all that difficult. given Kamba RaamaayaNam , the very best in Thamizh literature and values.

8) By teaching Thyagaraja Kruthis from primary school level itself compulsorily, we can make all the children realize that CM is not something alien, elitist and hostile to them and that all the venerated CM composers have been against brahminical casteism and ritualism. ( that excludes MD 1 for all the beauty of his creations in art and literary craft).

if this can be done, that would be the best homage to Thyagaraja Swami.

I have nothing more to say on this topic.
Due apologies to @ram1999 ?

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

a rare recording- about 30 minutes
Thyagaraja Kruthi in Todi
rendered by Smt.N.C.Vasanthakokilam
( pre 1950 )
Thyagaraja Swami's guidance
emi jesitenemi
-----------------------------
https://sites.google.com/site/ncvasanth ... thyagaraja
-----------------
Gist
https://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.c ... -raga.html
Whatever one might accomplish in this World, what difference does it make if he does not have the grace of Lord SrI rAma?

Having become slaves to desire, delusion etc., those who do not know the commandment of SrI rAma, whatever they might accomplish in this World, what difference does it make?

Of what avail -
whether one performs daily or sacrificial oblations or
whether one is blessed with son for inheriting wealth or
whether one adopts another’s son in this World or

whether one builds (multi) storeyed house or
whether, in there, he lights up with a pair of lanterns or
whether one knows to flatter women or

whether one attains comforts of this World or
whether one provides jewellery to his wife or
whether one knows amorous sports or

whether one rules a kingdom or
whether one becomes worthy of worship among a lot of people or
whether one gives sumptuous feast with abundant flow of ghee or

whether one becomes a preceptor or
whether one’s body appears splendid to look at or
whether one initiates others in sacred syllables?


Those who do not have the grace of sacred SrI rAma -
who causes auspiciousness,
the peerless One,
the Lotus Eyed,
who is worshipful,
praised by this tyAgarAja -

whatever they might accomplish in this World, what difference does it make?

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by shankarank »

That is personal advice and not any social advice. It is for individual seekers. As a samooham, things are more nuanced and there is a cultural responsibility of weighing things in a broader perspective.
RSR wrote: 08 Mar 2021, 11:06 4) But the saving grace is that the major political forces here are rooting for 'Dravidian' identity , and not exclusively for Tamizh identity.
and so may not be all that averse to Telugu and Kannada.
5) Rightly or wrongly, Sanskrit is perceived as the language of Brahminical caste superiority and oppression. but the other Dravidian languages are not considered so.
Irony is that, the rest of the states don't subscribe to this identity. Proponents of this identity have vested interest in keeping any remote telugu connection under wraps and are under compulsion to play up the tamizh roots ( and the resulting tamizh pride) of all these other languages. Your suggestion made with good intentions is very unlikely to be picked up!

And as we saw in the case of French, Chomsky opines that it is a Germanic language if you look at grammar only. But is grammar, the only substratum of a language! That is linguistic reductionism!

Now the speakers in that very movement blurt out: "Ariyam pungundu pugundu maTRa mozhikaLellAm samaskiruta mayamAkkapaTTuviTTana!" (Aryanness entered and made all the other Dravidian languages more of samskRtam)

So the language games have some muddle in there!

RSR
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Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by RSR »

p-83
Many of the political leaders of TN today, are Telugus at home. After all, Naik rule in TN districts dates back from 1600 and though the Tanjore and Vellore Naiks were later supplanted by Mahratas , Arcot Nawabs and finally by East India Company, the Madurai Naiks had a much longer and steady presence. Their control was retained by the feudal scheme of Ariyanayaka Mudaliyar who created polygors system.
As you may know, the Sethu samasthanam alone defied the Madurai Naik rule. Even there, Puthukkottai was different.
All the other areas in Madurai Naik kingdom had sizeable Telugu population.
Under Naik rule In Vellore, Tanjore and Madurai, a lot of Telegu brahmin migration took place.
When we have the historical perspective from 1600 to 1900, we get a new insight into the evolution of CM and why it is so heavily telugu-oriented.
That apart, enjoy the music of Smt.NCV. cited above.

The values practised by the intellectual and spiritual elite have great influence on the common people . So, there is no need for segregation of values for spiritual seekers and materialists.

Manian
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Joined: 09 Aug 2020, 13:48

Re: How would Saint Thyagaraja have liked his Aradhana to be conducted?

Post by Manian »

There is a Phonological Grammar of Tamil by Professor N. Ram and he developed it at TIFR(Tata Inst. Fundamental Research), Colaba , Bombay in 1967 and produced a computer speech, 1st of its kind in the world and presented a paper at the 2nd International Tamil Conference in Chennai in 1969. This grammar adds what is left out in Panini's Sanskrit Grammar and Tolkappiyam. If there are other such phonological grammars for Telugu, Kannada, Malayalam, Hindi etc., then one can compare them and see how a language modifies the borrowed words from another language. So, discussions without all the facts are opinions only and lead to views not agreeable to all. The written language (or script from Karoshti- Ashoka's Kashmir Stupas) to Brahmi script came later. So, the discussions should be about music and how to enjoy it rather than getting into area of ignorance. As to will Thyagaraja want this mela should be views as we garland our dead parent's photos. Did they tell us that we should put garland daily, light and do aarathi? We just do it for our own satisfaction. Those who don't want can ignore them. We do not even offer our dead ancestors a remembrance. Now, artist wants to survive and this is a free advertisement they get. Thyagaraja was simple, but these ladies come with glittering silk saris with all the jewels they can not wear otherwise. It is their choice. If Thyagaraja wanted to reject these worship with his Rama's blessings spread Corona to all those noise makers. But being a saint, he tolerates (assuming his spirit is alive) as children bother their parents. Let us just enjoy music and not get involved with the behavior of the singers.

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