The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
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sankark
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sankark »

From thewire.in enuf said. One can easily discount such stories from thewire, caravan, thehindu, nyt, wapo, and the likes.

sureshvv
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sureshvv »

What I found interesting is that the UCLA Department of Music is discussing this. So this is not some local ranting any more. Wonder how long before we have BLM type activists holding signs opposite Raga Sudha :D

Nick H
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by Nick H »

Boring and hard to read. Why is this sort of writing typical of some academics? Is it because they have to make a habit of writing a thousand words on some subject that might be a non-subject, and even if not, something they don't know much about?
sureshvv wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 12:53Wonder how long before we have BLM type activists holding signs opposite Raga Sudha :D
The day that anyone is denied entry to that, or any other hall!

sureshvv
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sureshvv »

Nick H wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 15:57 The day that anyone is denied entry to that, or any other hall!
These people typically do not want to come in!

The following paragraph does bring to mind some of the views that are made known here. The term that is being referred to here in "Classical".
The term, in Weidman’s opinion, is universalising and homogenising in a way that makes canonised knowledge seem like it exists outside of time. Even today, scholars and musicians turn to Shastric texts rather than oral histories or lived traditions to draw from and assert authority over art forms such as Carnatic music and Bharatanatyam dance.
Following passage also quite thought provoking, although it takes a side-swipe at Brahmins without naming anyone so we can understand who she is talking about.

She believes that the term ‘Devadasi’ is as casteist as it is colonial and one that Brahmins want to keep upholding to continue the skewed, exclusivist narrative. The need of the hour, according to her, is “foregrounding the invented nature of 20th century history of Bharatanatyam and replace it with actual, social histories.”

These prevalent histories that Pillai refers to are those that are laden with cultural nationalism.

Sachi_R
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by Sachi_R »

OK guys. I recently met Lalitharam. He has collected ₹30L for the welfare of Nagaswaram and Tavil artistes DURING COVID TIMES.

He has also published a beautiful calendar on Valangaiman Shanmugasundaram.

Parse that into this paid-for Angst Webinar.

sankark
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sankark »

Nick H wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 15:57
Boring and hard to read. Why is this sort of writing typical of some academics?
One can only surmise: paid by the number of bytes (hope it is not keystrokes so one can mint millions by typing and backspacing :twisted:) - not even number of words perhaps - and not for readability, forget intelligibility?

There was this quip I read once: if one needs clear prose in English, one should stick to germanic root words; go for latinate if erudite sounding pompous drivel is the want of the hour.

sankark
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sankark »

Sachi_R wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 17:58 OK guys. I recently met Lalitharam. He has collected ₹30L for the welfare of Nagaswaram and Tavil artistes DURING COVID TIMES.
That's worth a million bouquets and a big standing ovation to Lalitharam! Way to go!

For all those angst ridden folks on CM being brahminical, what's all they do to keep the non-brahminical nAgaswaram/tavil tradition alive except to have them as token symbols in auspicious ceremonies? Do those piLLai's even want their own offspring to continue that tradition (parallel: most vaidikar's don't want their offspring to get into vaidikam)

Nick H
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by Nick H »

sureshvv wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 17:22 These people typically do not want to come in!
Perceive exclusion keeps far more out of "classical" events worldwide than actual exclusion does. There are lots of "posh" western things from which I might exclude myself, due to insecurities like "I wouldn't know how to behave, what to do."

But this assumes that many if any of those who are happily consuming their pop/film/light/etc culture are actually thinking "Oh! How I wish I could go to a classical concert." And we all know... they aren't.

Nick H
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by Nick H »

sankark wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 18:30There was this quip I read once: if one needs clear prose in English, one should stick to germanic root words; go for latinate if erudite sounding pompous drivel is the want of the hour.
These days American has taken over the pompous drivel camp. Hence horrible words like foreground as a verb.

shankarank
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by shankarank »

The ‘mechanization of music’ with the invention of the harmonium, the gramophone, broadcasting and later, film music was the threat from which ‘classical music’ had to be shielded.
I don't see why that is illegitimate. Those who upheld this form at that time, were themselves recipients of training from sincere teachers. They extrapolated the observed sincerity of the teachers to eons back - again this is also full of truth and not imagination, it is certainly an ancient form, both dance and music documented , the former documented in sculptures. Well lets remove the documentation for a moment. In terms of principles and philosophy it is truly ancient and that suffices!

Socio cultural history and judgements on the other hand takes what works as a setup for the times, many times expedient, which any modern purveyor of sociology should be able to consider as truly human! What works for the goose works for the gander too! Would they live in an anarchic neighbourhood? Sitting in their tenured chairs and posh places they live , they pass such arm-chair comments and a subversive magazine prints it out as article.

Best that will come out of this is some digestive form, that will be dished out not as a cherished cultural tradition, but as an "art-form" like the Blues restaurant in Dallas below the house of blues, to pricey clients! House of blues is where large corporations hold their CEO townhalls too! The server joked about somebody complaining why the menu is so pricey! He told them, the chandelier hanging there is one pricey thing - how else would they recover it's cost? That was a protest music of some socio-cultural history! Now the low-class has moved on to "rap"!

Compared to that Music Academy canteen is not so pricey yeah? Heard lot of non musical people pay their visits ;) :D

shankarank
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by shankarank »

The Emergence of Provincial Politics The Madras Presidency 1870-1920 by D. A. Washbrook

It would also help to know how the common wealth was transferred to governments! These were support systems of musicians.

https://twitter.com/zeneraalstuff/statu ... 04/photo/1

https://twitter.com/zeneraalstuff/statu ... 40/photo/1

https://twitter.com/zeneraalstuff/statu ... 34/photo/1

https://twitter.com/zeneraalstuff/statu ... 34/photo/2 << This one is instructive - how judges had to bow to the dictats of lawyers!

https://twitter.com/zeneraalstuff/statu ... 34/photo/1

Let's remember that T for Thiru T Rajarattinam avargaL stands for ThiruvavADuthurai. And he started out as an Asthana vidvAn of the Adhinam!
Last edited by shankarank on 01 Feb 2021, 09:00, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by SrinathK »

Of late a large number of Western liberal academicians are putting way too much caste propaganda into their research papers on Indian arts. One activist I know shared an article from a book questioning the existence of Kshetragna and the book itself reads like an evil conspiracy novel.

I think of late Academia has becoming a political ideology breeding battle ground rather than any kind of research into truth. And it's giving ample fuel for a lot of professional protestors as well, some of whom are nominated for the Nobel P(l)ease prize. Maybe some of them will indeed be protesting outside raga sudha someday.

The practical implications of all this is that as harimau once shared, it has suddenly become harder to obtain sponsorship and overseas opportunities for musicians and organizers both because now even the officials at the consulates want to make sure musicians are not a bunch of religious cult bigots.

While no mention happens about all the nonsense happening from the other end. Of course, these newspapers, if you see who owns them and where the money comes from, would only publish stuff like this.

And we know the one who is at the root this campaign all too well.
Last edited by SrinathK on 01 Feb 2021, 08:38, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by SrinathK »

Sachi_R wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 17:58 OK guys. I recently met Lalitharam. He has collected ₹30L for the welfare of Nagaswaram and Tavil artistes DURING COVID TIMES.

He has also published a beautiful calendar on Valangaiman Shanmugasundaram.

Parse that into this paid-for Angst Webinar.
A well known figure also into helping fellow artistes at this time and having raised a lot of funds via his efforts (credit must be given where due) will at the same time make sure never to talk about this effort if it's not by him while also adding that helping other distressed musicians is not a sign of broad mindedness or absence of bigotry, but rather the crime of being privileged and therefore further reinforcing the very structures that encourage such privileged attitudes. :lol: :lol: :mrgreen:

The self loathing...

sankark
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sankark »

Nick H wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 21:00
sankark wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 18:30There was this quip I read once: if one needs clear prose in English, one should stick to germanic root words; go for latinate if erudite sounding pompous drivel is the want of the hour.
These days American has taken over the pompous drivel camp. Hence horrible words like foreground as a verb.
I am looking forward to the day 'She elaborated a fine yadhukulakambhoji followed with Subbaraya Sastri's masterpiece' becomes 'She musiced a fine ......'
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Not really, I mean I am not really looking forward to that day but that day is well on its way

sureshvv
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by sureshvv »

Nick H wrote: 31 Jan 2021, 21:00 Hence horrible words like foreground as a verb.
And the usage appears very counter-intuitive to the meaning of the word.

Nick H
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Re: The Discordant Notes of Caste Lines in the Classical Arts

Post by Nick H »

Let's middle-distance the whole thing :lol:

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