Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music
Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
harimau is not one individual, but a Team of Three !
harimau wrote: 27 Sep 2015, 09:51
The blessings are from all the three members of Team Harimau.

Post #17 of -
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26053

Sachi_R
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Sachi_R »

Guys, now that we are celebrating Harinau, May I say in all humility that it was yours truly who explained his name as meaning tiger in Bahasa.

Also I did some unearthing about his antecedents and somebody offered for a king's ransom to introduce him to me. He also mentioned his being a sibling of a most active, connected and respected Carnatic music organiser and king maker.

No more. My lips are sealed.

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

All our lips are sealed. And we all know anyway.

The two alleged team-mates, though, have never been "outed." So that remains a challenge, or would do except we'd forgotten about them.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=26053
I can't believe I was embroiled in that plot and came out unscathed. Very nostalgic. We had many prolific Rasikas and sometimes it got aggressive with a tiger pouncing and those wilderness stories . It was thrilling too , anticipating an ambush anytime for even the nicest post. Are we missing folks or celebrating the tiger that haunted us ?

It is only that tuk tuk tuk tuk that came post after post brought attention to him and I never for a long time understood what he meant by that I never felt like asking . But he did not have a plausible reason for hating two SK . He sweated like like paid saboteur against the SK institution. All that I remember.

And he was one person who wrote super long posts, I remember

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 10 Oct 2020, 22:34 that plot
Oh god, that plot.

Rohan's dad. Enough said. In fact, two words too many.

Harimau bang on target again.

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

That was the state of discussion on Mridangam then!

Did hear Rohan play once in the last 5 years so for Aditya Prakash once - that was a fund raiser by a Hindu/Sanatana organization, not the ones in normal tour circuit of India based artistes!

Fine playing!

I see some flagellation for the return of "Thanjavur iDakku" opening the betel box and sharpening the "seeval" cutter!

rajeshnat
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by rajeshnat »

GM
Many in the forum knows harimau. So it is not that big a secret. I had to write in this thread only to counter this far more characterization of aging tiger, Maneater etc taking more predominance than very very significant side of meaningful contributions.. Ofcourse mods did what was right yes.. No cryptography etc we have to respect. anonymity. I am almost done with this thread

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

I joined this forum only some four years back, and did not find many all that offensive posts from Harimau. Many nice and refreshingly bold posts by him are I think, buried deep in thousands of General Discussions section. Need time to sift through them. and collect them.
I am intrigued that he was against the award of SK to two famous artistes active and leading today. ( Sudha and Sanjay). I would like to learn why he objected. Any help by giving the URL of the threads? I did a google search but not successful.
He perhaps had some very fine and keen insights.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

He had a few in mind and when they missed it he went nuclear. No insights. Because that someone passes a treasure to you it does not mean that he could spit on it before passing it . He did not pass treasure nor was he indispensable. He lacked civility every bit , and started going nasty often and was of the opinion that people here are shameless to take just anything he says. Now I am wondering .. .. what was that so EXTRAORDINARY his posts, writing and superlative language were ( Nick as a native speaker , were you also amazed ?). If true, I am keen to read them to know if any such amazing read has been missed .

It was full of abstract allusions , sarcasm direct and indirect, insinuations, slandering, spinning stories, spewing venom in spite of admins warning him. I only remember he started polluting the posts that people found it objectionable and sometimes revolting. Most of the things written here are information obtained from internet or some second hand and third hand information. Even if it is mentioned as first hand we cannot verify it . He called tuk tuk . He called all the Indians living abroad with names. He called all the Techies as " brainless code monkeys" ( I quite remember) . He did not realize that the code monkeys make this forum and his ramblings to exist. I don't think he moved out as he had a place full of constuctive obligations. The admins properly put their foot down and he walked out in a huff and that made a few members to tone down .

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

Nick as a native speaker , were you impressed ?
Don't ask me to judge!

Almost all the rasika community speak and write English at least as well as I do, and when they do not, it is because they have been afflicted by some of bad things in American English. In a community where scholarship and intellectual prowess is given priority, I am but the lazy schoolboy who came bottom of the class in almost everything. In fact, I sometimes reflect that it is one of the blessings of having fallen into the rasika world that I have come to mix with people I would never otherwise have met.

But I've said that I admired Harimau's whit (edit: woops, I meant wit of course) and incisive criticism. There is, and should be, room for that. There is, and should be, room for the criticism of an artist's behaviour on stage (and, to a limited extent, off stage). If they think otherwise, that is their problem. The world of art is the last place that a person who can only deal with praise should be!

In the end, though, Harimau went beyond the acceptable. Thus we lost a needed critic.
Last edited by Nick H on 11 Oct 2020, 20:51, edited 1 time in total.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

I am absolutely not against criticism and it is very much needes as long it does not prevent seeing the nicer aspects.

Nick wrote

IN THE END , though, Harimau went beyond the acceptable. Thus we lost a needed critic.

The "END" was long and seemed unending .

Sreeni Rajarao
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Sreeni Rajarao »

Of course Nick meant wit, not whit (But I've said that I admired Harimau's whit and incisive criticism.)


Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

Sreeni Rajarao wrote: 11 Oct 2020, 18:52 Of course Nick meant wit, not whit
:oops:

See what I mean about not being the one to ask about the English! :lol:

Maybe I was thinking "whet." That would be appropriate to the tiger's teeth :)
ganesh_mourthy wrote: 11 Oct 2020, 14:06 The "END" was long and seemed unending .
Yes, that is when the mods should have acted sooner. Looking back at those old threads, I realised I had put him on my ignore list. There came a time when I no longer wanted to see his posts.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

The way the English language is pridefully owned by almost everyone with regional inflections , it is hard to find a good writing with steady gait. Most of the time it is a perfect mix of archaic, literary , poem, slang, then some equal dose of aussie brit and scot and the Geordie "i kinnit"...then the hollywood and friends , Express and Hindu ...some of the posts are like deciphering cryptic languages. And all those insinuations, sarcasm with all the assorted word style adds to the complexity..Fortunately I did not understand much of the harimau style. Those of you who swooned I am sorry about your loss.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Mods 1/2/3/......

You may consider shifting this thread to "Members' Stuff & Lounge", as the focus has largely been on two Members of the Forum.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Yes boring indeed. But , I hope it worked a bit to suggest how not to write a post and make others feel bored and just to jog the memory to remind an ostrasizing is also possible.

A button to mention " this post is long and make it short" is the much needed one of the hour.

I have never written this many posts in a short period of time. Too much time idle ,frustrating and confined :( and reading a lot of rasikas stuffs.


shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

Wo! Wo! Wo! - we rasikas also work hard and devote a lot of time to music and "accompanied" many an artiste ( in the vehicle actually) - why can't we be the subject of derision once in a while :lol:

Isn't this a forum of raiskas, for rasikas, by rasikas! :P

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

that wo ! wo ! wo ! and all . How long have you been living in the US ? ;)
And I asked about Tamil .. no body yet?

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

If I start talking like a madurai street urchin of 80s / 90s, the kind that hits you on the back of your head and bullies you, inda forum taangAtu! You could see that perspective subtly in my posts actually! :lol:

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

shankarank wrote: 12 Oct 2020, 22:51 Wo! Wo! Wo!
“Whoa! Whoa! Whoa!” 🙃

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

ganesh_mourthy wrote: 12 Oct 2020, 22:58 And I asked about Tamil .. no body yet?
The audio/video era, is a boon sent in the "you" era. You can listen to speeches ( "ears" again :lol: ). You can start from Suki Sivam. Isaikavi Ramanan does good talks on Bharati.

Triplicane Humour club videos give out some names - where you can catch them in a serious venue. Kalki obviously is a good read. I myself have not heard of other names. Many names did not percolate down to the mofussil.

Reading of literature waned in my times. English was for the [;cough;] privileged, with stiff upper lips, stiffer, the more privileged it got. Tamizh was for the few paTRaaLars, who visited the tamizh teacher's homes and spent writing some poems.

Rest of us , who need to do serious stuff to make a living , prepared for entrance exams!

But the "leftist" tinge in writings, in retrospect, tells me, we didn't miss much. Speakers however have to put themselves in front of real people and cannot dish out utopia!

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Snankarank

""my" era"? You are guessing my age and era? YOu will mostly place it wrong

Thank you for the suggestions , I will watch them. And you are perceptive. I think the writers did not have the analytical material to see black from whites. It was easy to say supposed utopian left is the right. I could see that even in T.J's book .

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

Well time magazine honoured the youtube era with person of year as "you" - you in youtube - I meant that!

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

https://youtu.be/f_4nYgrDJvc?t=1228 - Stravinsky, James Joyce, Chaplin and Jazz. Those are the icons of modernism , I guess the first two I am not too aware of, living in the West! Stravinsky finds a mention in an old thread in the forum by VK - all people have spoken about music, lyrics etc. and left. I just came here and showed ways how it is NOT lyrics!!!

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=14452&p=176483&hil ... ky#p176483

I did not drive away anybody! They have all spoken all they could!

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

The same plea is in front of the highest court of the land :D :

https://indianexpress.com/article/opini ... n-7048306/
Much before Plain English books, George Orwell set out six principles. “(i) Never use a metaphor, simile or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. (ii) Never use a long word where a short one will do. (iii) If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out. (iv) Never use the passive where you can use the active. (v) Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent. (vi) Break any of these rules sooner than say anything barbarous.
Is there an editor software that can do this auto? May be the forum can incorporate it ;)

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

No no . Our eyes can filter it as assimilating them can be tedious and exhausting. Our mind is the best app. It tries a couple of times and once it detects this combination of bugs it learns to quickly overlook and move on .

And it is the highest court of your land? See, you have to be explicit too. You cannot expect everyone to know the who-is-who of Orwell.

I am the basic of the basics in knowledge and English, yet have the interest to read rasikas. You have to make me inclusive and not intimidate me. I am the level checker. If I understand, I figure everyone understands.

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

As if I knew who is who of Orwell. I kind of remember seeing the term used in critique, get a vague sense from the context, but then forget! The above rules though, made sense to me. The man is asking "music" to be removed from language - if you get the drift :evil: - Oops! No metaphors - Never mind ! :lol:

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

shankarank wrote:
- if you get the drift :evil: - Oops! No metaphors - Never mind ! :lol:

-----

in local language I am tempted to say " adhu" .. but again , no confusing languages.
I am handicapped at these effective slangs in Tamil itself.. for quite sometimes I did not understand " adhu" always told with a thump and strong intonation... to me it was just "that " ... It took me a long time to understand .
HOpe you understand what I wrote . :lol:

SrinathK
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by SrinathK »

Could you please avoid a thread that is only excessive rambling? :lol:

I think this bani of rant is becoming popular. Other members can now follow the style.

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

It is not even rambling but much more than that .... ...it is the problem sometimes with excessive time in hand with no productive resources around. I went several excessive. I talked a good game. Srinath spotted it. :? I would rather close my eyes and say AUM. End of the topic, the message conveyed hopefully.

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

1)modern western classical music is totally instrumental and orchestra-based

2) Higher level HM is mostly raga elaboration.

3) CM differs from HM in that it is traditionally lyrics-based. Yet, even in CM, it is not the kruthis that are considered higher art but raga aalaapanai, swaram singing, RTP etc. That was the situation in the closing decades of 1800- 1900.
and even in the first few decades from 1900.
This is not to belittle the kruthi-based CM but to bring out the essence of classical music in general. All music, especially classical music is tune based and not lyrics based. Thus Instrumental music is the purest form of CM.

4) Is it possible that all the vocalists in CM, know Telugu, Sanskrit, Knnada and Tamil? Not at all likely. Why then give priority to the lyrics of even the Trinity?
It is not for Literary excellence that the kruthis of the Trinity are venerated. It is for the theme and the way in which these composers broghtforth the ragas through their compositions.

Pure Raga aalaap can be listened and enjoyed but it cannot be reproduced in the listeners' mind. but the same raga entwined with lyrics can dwell in our memory. whether we understand the meaning or not.
Bereft of the accompanying melody, the texts of the kruthis are mostly inferior to the literary excellence of pure poets and writers.

5) When one knows how to appreciate pure CM through Instrumental renditions, like those of T.N.R , Karukurichi, Mali, Lalgudi, AKC N, and such players, one gets to understand the primacy of melody in classical music.

We then are not getting our focus getting blurred by theme, word-play, grammar, meaning and history and philosophy.

6) And finally, when vocal music is used to expound the ragam, much depends on the singer. Ultimately, it is the vocalist that succeeds or fails in bringing out the uniqueness of the ragam.
What more is there to say on this topic? Not apologetic at all.

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

RSR wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 15:41 1)modern western classical music is totally instrumental and orchestra-based
Actually, it isn't. There is lots and lots of classical vocal music. Please don't ask me for examples, because I am not a good historian, and I don't like the Western "trained" voice, but I could mention one word: opera! And one of the earliest, if not the earliest, "classical" composers was a twelfth-century nun called Hildegard, who wrote... songs.

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

@Nick H
Western 'Classical' music , is defined as the musical compositions of Beethovan, and two others. The 'Romantic' period also mostly followed the same approach. The Western 'Classical' music is defined as the music , almost contemporaneous with the Trinity and East India Company rule in Tamil areas
https://www.britannica.com/list/10-clas ... rs-to-know
Thus defined, there does not seem to have been any lyrics and vocal rendition of the 'trinity' of Western 'Classical' music.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 21:26 @Nick H
Western 'Classical' music , is defined as the musical compositions of Beethovan, and two others. The 'Romantic' period also mostly followed the same approach. The Western 'Classical' music is defined as the music , almost contemporaneous with the Trinity and East India Company rule in Tamil areas
https://www.britannica.com/list/10-clas ... rs-to-know
Thus defined, there does not seem to have been any lyrics and vocal rendition of the 'trinity' of Western 'Classical' music.
This is absurd and common sense should tell us that Bach and Vivaldi (Baroque composers) are classical composers as much as Mozart and Beethoven, that you’ve probably referred to. First of all Mozart of the “classical” period is famous among for his lovely operas which involves beautiful vocal music.

You are mixing up a particular movement - a particular period - in western classical music with western classical music itself.

In fact the period of the 18th and early 19th century which is known as the classical era, is equally well-known as the neo-classical era, which was an artistic attitude that developed at that time and pervaded all forms of art: music, painting, architecture, literature: poetry and drama. The idea that was current at the time was that art had to follow the techniques and styles and constraints of the actual “classical” period: they wanted to emulate the artistic, architectural, dramatic and poetic styles of classical (ancient) Greece.

So, RSR, your understanding of the word “classical” and it’s definition is wrong. It is a mix-up with the classical era in western classical music, which is actually the neo-classical era. Western classical music is much broader. As I said the classical era itself did have vocal music.

It’s funny that you just said “two others“ and didn’t name Mozart. In fact, it is Mozart who is the greatest exponent of this period, not Beethoven. It is well-known that Mozart’s works included opera: The Marriage of Figaro, Don Giovanni, The Magic Flûte are among the most famous.. Also, Beethoven has composed an opera, Fidelio. In addition his 9th symphony does have a very famous vocal section, though as his much later work, it is well into the Romantic era of classical music, that Beethoven is better known for.. Fashions had changed, but it’s still “classical music” though not of the “classical period.”

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 21:26
https://www.britannica.com/list/10-clas ... rs-to-know
Thus defined, there does not seem to have been any lyrics and vocal rendition of the 'trinity' of Western 'Classical' music.
Just happened to look at that Britannica link. How does that support your view/your definition? That link takes us through hundreds of years - before Beethoven whom you voted as a classical composer, was born and way after him!

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

Hmmm... there's a general and a specific definition of Western "classical music."

I am no expert, and usually use the general definition. Many, many people, whether they listen to it or not, are also happy with the general definition. I don't want to fight a definition/wiki/dictionary battle over it, but, well, you know, serious music, right? I'm perfectly happy with Ranganayaki's definition

The more specific definition, I'd say, is not particularly useful outside of a discussion about Western music history. One thing I am very sure of: it has certainly never been limited to any two or three composers.

I'm sure that... Beethoven wrote at least some songs. Sure, I only know one off hand, but apart from that one, that everybody knows, I also know he wrote an opera.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

Nick H wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 01:29 Hmmm... there's a general and a specific definition of Western "classical music."
I don’t agree with this. There aren’t two different definitions of western classical music.

There is a specific period known as the classical period within western classical music. It could have been known by some other name, but it was a descriptive term for music influenced by classical (ancient) Greece. In fact the true and better term for this period is the “neo-classical” period. The term does exist and is used more commonly in literature, but also in music.

I’m not interested in a definition battle either, but RSR has clearly misunderstood. We were referring to Western classical music as a whole and RSR, probably with an incomplete understanding of what he read, came up with this “way of defining” it for us here, literally limiting western classical music to a single century. He also draws a parallel to the “trinity” in carnatic music in a contemporary period. But it is a misunderstanding and he cannot choose to define western classical music any way he wants.

The more specific definition, I'd say, is not particularly useful outside of a discussion about Western music history.
Again it’s not a more specific definition of western classical music. RSR was mistakenly using the definition of a specific PERIOD in western classical music for the whole music.

It is very useful for enthusiasts who have more than a basic interest. It situates composers within a movement, a framework and we may have an idea of what to expect in the music. It’s like saying Bach wrote baroque music. We can immediately expect a contrast with Mozart, and some similarity with Vivaldi.
One thing I am very sure of: it has certainly never been limited to any two or three composers.
Yes... It makes me wonder how it didn’t make RSR stop and consider how that could be true, since we all know of many more names.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

The word “classical” here is rather a homonym. It refers to two different things. One is a type of “serious” music (as Nick says). I would add “exceedingly beautiful 🙂.” The other is in the sense of resembling ancient (classical) times/styles, specifically of Greece.

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

I am following the definition as given in wiki.
for classical music albeit western.
Just as the Trinity is almost ( the creations of earlier composers like Purandaradasa have not survived much in their 'melody' but mostly in their lyrics. ) the starting point of CM, the classical' period/music is the celebrated and definitive period/ genre in Western classical music. 'True. We cannot understand the term as we wish . I am following the standard classification.
I do not have much exposure to Western Music and did not want to 'sprinkle' names.
As in study of English literature, there are various eras no doubt but each era has a specific meaning ( I am basing myself on Hudson)
My use of 'classical' is that of standard classification nd not the general disctionary meaning . I had difficulty in copying and pasting the URL of the wiki entry. Will try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 18 Nov 2020, 15:41 Yet, even in CM, it is not the kruthis that are considered higher art but raga aalaapanai, swaram singing, RTP etc. That was the situation in the closing decades of 1800- 1900.
and even in the first few decades from 1900.
You are employing a very historical critical method! Take a small fact of history and blow it up as representative of the whole thing. If vidvans sang in durbars of dwindling samasthanams, they had an agenda and had to do it for their livelihood. It is our bias that we tend to view this through the prism of "creativity" which we ourselves define as something higher.

To define this only as music is underserving the larger history. Even now recently we are back to discussing qualitative music , tone production, voice culture etc. And we in that context attacked vidvans showing their vidvat, instead of rendering true music! We are being inconsistent in our views.

The fact is even kRti singing is yet to be done with full justice! People have internalized the concept of language as separate from music and treat kRti/sAhitya as some form of poetry. Ignored the music in it.

Much of music of those times that reached the public are through instrumental music of nadasvarams - where, in compositions like mallari, rhythym had as much primary role as melody and kirtanams of informal music (bhajans, harikatha).

Even pallavi lines in RTP employ some structure, yati, anchoring using atItam, pause, syncopation etc. Else it becomes pedestrian. This all before any creativity is employed!

But you can see some subconscious expression of this in trivialities. In RTP rAgA malika, some musicians employ rAgA names ending with all ranjani, all varaLi or all gaULa etc. No melodic relation there. Just antyAkshara prAsA in even thinking the names - for rasikas to savor.

It is ShADava for 6 , auDava for 5 though - I guess people sense music in words.

Hey! Even as I enter the forum home page - I am presented with an "all Balaji" Lec dem video - antyakshara prAsa? Language as music?

I rest my case (trivially!) :lol:

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

RSR sir,

Wikipedia is not a golden standard for reference. It has millions of articles and several thousand articles added every month. It can be a reference for just a first level of basic information, but cannot be used as an informed reference. In some of my thesis work then, any reference to Wikipedia was scraped off. Most of the topics there lack credible citations and some do not even work. I am not belittling Wikipedia as right now they have 55 million articles curated by very few people, who work on modicum wages, and they change constantly.


In fact, I had uploaded a few articles a couple of years ago and they were accepted without much screening. I had to recall a few as I later found I was not confident with some of the facts.

Wikipedia can be edited by anyone at any time. This means that any information it contains at any particular time could be vandalism, a work in progress, or just plain wrong. Therefore, Wikipedia should not be considered a definitive source in and of itself. ...

Wikipedia:Wikipedia is not a reliable source - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia ... f%20itself.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 07:49 I am following the definition as given in wiki.
for classical music albeit western.
Just as the Trinity is almost ( the creations of earlier composers like Purandaradasa have not survived much in their 'melody' but mostly in their lyrics. ) the starting point of CM, the classical' period/music is the celebrated and definitive period/ genre in Western classical music. 'True. We cannot understand the term as we wish . I am following the standard classification.
I do not have much exposure to Western Music and did not want to 'sprinkle' names.
As in study of English literature, there are various eras no doubt but each era has a specific meaning ( I am basing myself on Hudson)
My use of 'classical' is that of standard classification nd not the general disctionary meaning . I had difficulty in copying and pasting the URL of the wiki entry. Will try.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_music
This is what your link says:

this article is about the broad span of time from before the 6th century AD to the present day, which includes the Classical period and various other periods.[1]


Yet you have chosen to define classical music as the music of the classical period. You cannot do that. There are many many composers from Earlier and later periods.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Ranganayaki »

Anyway, god alone knows where this thread is headed, or how this argument about classical music fits here. And the person who started this thread asking for no insinuations or hints, etc. Is posting with just those things and engaging others who have done just that in this very thread! What is this thread about, really?

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

p-92
@shankarank
Much of the above post seems to vindicate my views. especially the role of Nagaswaram music in temple processions. of yore. As for the time-period, I am talking about CM only. and though it is said to begin with Purandaradasa, ( around 1500 AD), and though the Trinity had illustrious predecessors like Ramadasar and Sadasiva Brammendram, ( again, it is only the lyrics which are available but the tuning was done by others), it is the kruthis of the Trinity alone that are available to us with authentic lyrics and tuning. ( there may be a few spurious ones but at least the major part is preserved as was). Hence, it is customary to identify the Trinity with CM traditions.

Am I wrong in wondering if the kruthis of the Trinity would be so well-known and respected sans the melody? No. It is the melody that has made those songs the standard. It is for the melody that the songs are remembered rather than their theme, lyrical excellence and such. ( without the cultural ambience, it is very difficult for a non-indian to get immersed in some great renditions of kruthis like 'inta sowkyamu' and Namakusuma' ) I would say that such wonderful creations sung by stalwarts make us swing between choosing between instrumental rendering and vocal rendering. There again, it is the theme and not so much the words that score.

As for your accusation of historical-critical approach to CM, how can it be avoided or faulted as CM itself came into its own only around 1650? This should not be confused with Indian classical music.
Thyagaraja Swmi emerges as the benchmark for CM by his formative influences, numerous songs and great many disciples. and he never sang for any durbar. Nor did his disciple and cousin Manambuchavadi. who taught Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan who gave many many free temple concerts and in mutts.

May be that great instrument players got their ideas for raga allapanai for hours together by assimilating the raga shades from many of the krutis of Thyagaraja Swami and added advantage being that an instrument can traverse a larger range than the human voice.

Is there anything like solo vocal raga alapanai in Western classical music? Do we consider the katha-kaalakshepams as authentic soul of CM though many may have nice songs interposed? How would we classify Gapalakrushna Baraty's Nandanar Charithram and its songs?

RSR
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by RSR »

Wiki is not the ultimate source of information but they are not all that mis-guiding in this particular context. of defining Western 'classical' music. @ganesh_mourthy ( and kindly drop the sir'- I am just plain RSR).
I had to reiterate my basic approach as I felt that shankarank was referring to me.
And I think your post as reply to Srinath at p-82 ,has to be edited by yourself. ('I went excessive etc)Glaring mistakes . Makes no sense Perhaps you were in a hurry.

shankarank
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by shankarank »

RSR wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 12:21 Am I wrong in wondering if the kruthis of the Trinity would be so well-known and respected sans the melody? No.
A good majority of his compositions are actually not being sung to be fair. Because people did not receive it in whole form and afraid to touch it themselves out of respect. And musicologists contend that the intent of the composers is to give the rAgA svarUpam to us. Now you are saying rAgams are preserving their lyrics. Which is preserving which?

I heard in a paTTimanRam (Subhashree Tanikacalam), that Carnatic music stage now has done a favor or service to nayanmArs by providing a forum for tEvArams to be sung. So Carnatic music is some processor/platform/technology/framework and lyrics is just data/content! Even as an argument to take a side on a debate that is mind numbing!

How deracinated have we become?

As regards whether non-indians are able to appreciate the music, an old timer recalled the solo singing of John Higgins @ KGS , ennEramum in dEvagAndhAri to a thunderous applause - he was just asked to sing in a non concert session. A seeker who even has an inkling of the spirit of the system would be able to get to it! Nothing prevents.

We are just caught up in anthropology ( these people are like that, those people are like this) kind of thinking!

ganesh_mourthy
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by ganesh_mourthy »

Ranganayaki wrote: 19 Nov 2020, 11:56 Anyway, god alone knows where this thread is headed, or how this argument about classical music fits here. And the person who started this thread asking for no insinuations or hints, etc. Is posting with just those things and engaging others who have done just that in this very thread! What is this thread about, really?
Ranganayaki ....

In fact, I retired with admission that I betrayed my own suggestion. But then the thread went off a VERY SUDDEN tangent to classical and people were responding including you. I first thought that it was an error and RSR posted here by mistake and you were all adding posts to it. You .. shankarank , Nick ....
Well , leave it .. it is no big mistake. I am the king of mistakes. .....

that Classical topic can be a separate thread and this thread has saturated. Since I opened this useless thread, do I have the right to close the business here. I wonder ?!!

Nick H
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Re: Could you please avoid EXCESSIVE .. preferably no metaphors,, insinuations , hints , abstractions, conjectures

Post by Nick H »

@RSR, Ranganayaki has quoted the relevant wiki words, which I suspect (as someone who is not a music scholar) are correct. As a westerner, who listened to "classical music" from my youth, I can say that the more general reference was all I knew for many years. I can assure you there are lots of songs!

Nageswaran has passed away; Coolji and VKV do not join us these days. Their musical horizons reached all around the globe. Nice to know that Ranganayaki is also able to discuss Western music with knowledge. I can't. I can't even name members of my favourite rock bands, let alone corral composers into their periods.

Are we done with this rabbit hole? Where next? Perhaps the "winner" should get to choose. But who gets to choose the "winner?" ;) :lol:

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