Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

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Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 16 Mar 2021, 14:38 p-87
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We are not discussing in this thread , the general theory of music / classical music even.
This is about ARI paddhathi of vocal concert music.
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This thread is dedicated to not just addressing the concert paddhati! We are here to firstly debate what constitutes tradition and what does not. We are also here to analyse upto what extent can we say that adhering to tradition precludes new creative musical thoughts. The ARI paddhati is just one of many such 'traditions' that we assiduously follow without a honest impartial analysis.

The points made by Dr. Aravindh Ranganathan assume great relevance to our discussion. The misinterpretation of the lyrical content of certain Padams and Javalis and other musical pieces as being erotic, lewd and unsuitable, the misinterpretation of Bhakti itself as being uni-dimensional, the manner in which historical facts too have been twisted just to make the Sangita trimuthis fit into our own narrow ideas and concepts of Bhakti, these are points we must note.

I was frankly very surprised, when the Sangita Sampradaya Pradarshini was being discarded as an important source of authentic information, just because it missed out on mentioning Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan!! The SSP was a treatise dedicated to the Dikshitar school of music, and thus Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan, while a towering musical stalwart, was very much irrelevant to the context of the SSP. Also, let's stop arguing that Roopamu Juchi is not a creation of Mudduswami Dikshitar. It certainly is, and this is a historical fact.

Carnatic music might be based on Bhakti, but you are neglecting some very important factors.

1. Bhakti is not unidimensional. There are many ways of expressing one's bhakti to the Lord. Some may seem to be incompatible with the society of today, but that does not mean we denounce those other forms of bhakti as being lewd and improper. Kshetrayya was as pious and "bhakti bhava poorna" as Tyagaraja was. Also, the same intensity of bhakti that inspired MD to compose Sri Nathadi Guruguho, moved him to compose Roopamu Joochi. Shyama Sastri, in his compositions clearly showed us that for him, Devi was not just a mother figure. She was his everything! He addresses her as his mother, as well as his sister. He sometimes loved her like a father, some other times as a friend, He has also addressed her as his lover, and has given us vivid portrayals of her beauty, both physical and divine. Sringaram is also a way of expressing one's bhakti, and by excluding the sringaram genre, we are doing a great disservice to Carnatic Music as well as Bhakti itself!

2. There is a difference between Carnatic music and Bhakti music. Carnatic music didn't base itself only on Bhakti. I evolved in courts also, under the patronage of rulers and zamindars. Just a few posts back, a passionate argument supporting why a varnam must be sung first in a kutcheri was made. Now, the varnam didn't evolve out of any Bhakti tradition. It was born in the courts, and was meant for Sadir dancers. Also, didn't Shyama Sastri learn from a court musician Pacchimiri Adi Appayya? Weren't his famed swarajathis inspired, at least in part by the swarajathis of Pacchimiri like E Mandayana ra?

3. Carnatic music has evolved and grown in many ways. Bhakti is integral, but that does not mean it is the sole driving force behind Carnatic Music. Respect for the ragam, the melody and the layam are equally important. Manodharmam is just as essential to CM. Same goes for Padams and Javalis also. I wish to quote Sangeetha Kalanidhi Dr. Sripada Pinakapanigaru-
"We bring the same musical treatment to each type of composition within the scope allowed by it. A composition in slow tempo permits embellishment with much more musical material than a fast moving one. A composition is like a vessel that can be filled with the rasa or quintessence of a raga to its capacity. The Padam is a big vessel, like a tanker. The Krithi is a relatively small ship or boat. The Javali is like a glass, or you may describe it as a pocket edition of the Padam. They all contain the same Ganga water or nectar."
He has emphasised how each krithi is a vessel for the elaboration and presentation of the ragam and the pure music. Bhakti and Ragabhavam go hand in hand, and to focus on Raga bhavam itself can also a means of expressing Bhakti!

In conclusion, while there's much left to be said, for now I'll say that narrow interpretations of Bhakti and the role of Music and its evolution cause much harm to the growth and development of the art form. An open, unbiased and accepting mind is very important if we are to analyse music and learn!!

SrinathK
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Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

Open, unbiased and accepting are adjectives singularly lacking amongst some. You should therefore choose your threads wisely. Believe me, we tried. :mrgreen:

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

P-101, P-102
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No use in discussing anything with people who lack social perspective. and insist on art-for-art sake.
Fortunately, there are translation of all the kruthis of the Trinity.
For me, the icons as composers of CM are PurandaraDasa, Kanakadasa, Bhadrachalam Ramadasu, Thyagaraja Swami , Shyamasastry and finally MD.
And the presidential address of Smt.MS in Music academy .
These are enough for me and great many rasikas of yester years.
You can read my related posts in Thyagaraja Aaradhana thread .
I stick to my approach.
People are conveniently ignoring many gaps in SSP.
To repeat, among the 500 and more of MD kruthis, only about 250 are listed and treated in SSP.
This is HUGE GAP.
For understanding my decided and firm approach to CM, just go through the opening page in my site
sites.google.com/site/4carnaticmusic
I have said enough.
Good Bye

Ananthakrishna
Posts: 130
Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:38

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 18 Mar 2021, 08:57 P-101, P-102
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People are conveniently ignoring many gaps in SSP.
To repeat, among the 500 and more of MD kruthis, only about 250 are listed and treated in SSP.
Of the 500 or more krithis attributed to MD today, most are almost certainly spurious and not composed by him, like Akhilandeshwari, Sandhya Devim, Rangapura Vihara. The SSP is a valuable source of authentic MD compositions.

Also we must respect and value a treatise according to its quality and authenticity, and not how many compositions it notates. As mentioned earlier, we should not judge it by what it doesn't contain. True, there are krithis not in the SSP that are authentic MD compositions (Mahaganapatim Vande in Thodi for instance), but that doesn't mean the SSP can be ignored and ditched. That will lead to an even bigger "gap", for we will have no authentic reference standard for studying whether a composition is actually MD's or not.

There are several blogs and websites out there, like Sreenivasa Rao's, Prasanna Kommajosyula's, and numerous others. However these have been set up by scholarly rasikas and students, who while very knowledgeable and passionate, cannot be considered authentic sources of information. Any information you find there needs to be verified against manuscripts and treatises before we take it to be true. Same goes for the many translations of krithis we find on the net today. The true repository of knowledge on what tradition was, and what it is now, is the set of manuscripts and treatises available to us, and it is to these texts we must turn, for authentic, verified information.

Regarding the social perspective, I respectfully submit that those propagating the "CM=Bhakthi Music+Little Manodharma" idea are perhaps lacking the same. I don't know what MSS amma has said in her presidential address, since I don't know Tamizh myself. I also don't know what art for bhakti's sake means. But I do know one thing. There's a reason why Tyagaraja composed Utsava Sampradayam and Divyanama Sankeertanams on one hand and Krithis on the other. The former were meant exclusively for the Bhakti genre, but the latter was not solely bhakti-based. The ragabhavam shown in his krithis is supreme, which indicates that he also respected the "art" side of CM, and composed those not merely out of love for Rama, but also love and passion for Carnatic Music. He was an excellent musician, for he knew the fine line between Bhakti music and Art music, and also knew how CM combines the best of both these worlds. It's sad that we have now excluded the artistic side of CM, and have even altered historical facts to support our narrow interpretations of CM, and then force these same distorted facts and ideas on the life of Tyagaraja.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-104
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Both Uthsava Sampradhaya and Naama Sankkerthanam groups of Thyagaraja Swami, are devotional. In fact, the Trinity never composed any non-devotional songs.
Palm leaf manuscripts and even copper-plates can be spurious.
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Rangapura vihara - there is a thread or two discussing which raga according to SSP.
Historical facts are twisted by the NEO-philes, not the academy
We can get the English translation of Smt.MS -Presidential ddress at Music Acdemy by searching for MA proceedings. Available as PDF
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https://issuu.com/themusicacademy/docs/1969/16

https://mssgems.blogspot.com/2019/08/sm ... ademy.html

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 12:20 p-104
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Both Uthsava Sampradhaya and Naama Sankkerthanam groups of Thyagaraja Swami, are devotional.
And that is precisely my point. These are purely devotional, while the normal krithis of Tyagaraja place equal emphasis on Bhakti as well as the Art and aesthetic aspect of CM.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-106
No. Wrong logic. I will repeat again.
Classification based on Theme and Lyrics
a) Devotional (b) non-devotional
Classification based on musicology
(a) emphasis ln raagam and layam with focus on theme.
(b) manodharmam music like aalaap, niraval, swara saahithyam,
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Thyagaraja kruthis are strictly devotional in theme. Secondly, very few have built in swara saahithyam\
There are no 'romantic' music items like Thillanaa, JaavaLi , whether in theme or genre.
This is true of all the three of the Trinity.
Shyama Saastry swara jathis are strictly meant to be sung , not for dance music. This criterion is applicable to Dasarsaahithyams and Badrachalam also.
The 'Spiritual Heritage of Thyagaraja' by Dr.V.Raghavan may be a useful read.
He was as you know, Professor in Sanskrit . and knew Telugu. and as he hailed from Thiruvaaroor had studied the works of Shyama Sastry and edited them.
==================
srinivasaraos is very erudite scholar in not only music but many other subjects like Sanskrit and even History.
In his articles on the Trinity, he cites great many modern research workers and writers.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

kaRnATaka sangItam oru (is a ) bhakti pUrvamAna ( filled) sangItam - 500% true. But there are flaws in the statement too, which implies there is some sangItam which is devoid of bhakti. This is because, we impose our own categories derived from some where else on this.

You used the term illiterate! I'd say 100% - I would rather first become 100% illiterate before trying to ponder over what our heritage is. Especially when I see the way @RSR goes about his analysis. Literacy doesn't mean just ability to read and write does it? It gave us a new lens and umpteen assumptions and biases. schoolla paDiccatellam kazhaTTi veccuTTutaan sangItam enginra oru pavitramAna viShayattai aNukavENDum! Scholarship of modern variety is a double edged sword! While it is a necessary evil as a tool required for conversation today, it can mislead us into it's own traps!

We say court music! Then comes the assumption that ipso facto it is devoid of bhakti. We use the term narastuti! SrI tyAgarAja had his own court of SrI RAmA. And for some reason he couldn't come to respect the Saraboji's court. His kriti kAsiccedE brings more description to this: http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html. But his ancestors had no qualms about serving the same court of Saraboji's ancestors.

We should remember, a worthy King was considered close to divine. Because he represents not him the person, but the rAjyA itself, which was worthy of that kind of respect - with people's sacrifices remembered. Just recently was hearing silppadikAram discourse by Prof. Vaidyalingam, where he explains the opening invocation as not a praise to "nature" (Sun and moon) - but by implication in the simile , it is a praise to the chOzha king, actually ultimately a felicitation to the kingdom itself.

So we should consider things in a larger context.

Then comes the court language! Even though court had it's influence, people were preserving tamizh on the side. Oduvars were continuing their tradition! And SrI ThyagarAja could continue his efforts ignoring the court. And when patronage dried up, people of conviction continued to preserve the SrNgArA sampradAya.

You make much about the theme of padams and jAvaLis without realizing that, they only got a very cursory treatment in modern concert stage, which you @RSR has not even graced much. Without even experiencing the concert stage, you are taking a stance on what it should be and what it should not be.

I agree that in this day and age, things can be misunderstood, twisted, received , perceived wrongly. Our children being brought up to face a different type of life challenges, with what is actually an "incomplete" or really a "silly" thing called education, without a compensating cultural stimulus, that is dwindling all around - compared to even my times!

But SrnGAra sampradAya still is being taught and cherished among sahRdayas , connoiseurs. It has a different appeal when done in an informal setting. I have personally experienced it myself , in music meets of like minded people when at the end of a long session, a lilting parulanna mATa is a fulfilling experience.

In a concert, the only thing that can stand out is a flawless mElkAlam ( top speed) of Mridangam that can embellish a a JavaLi, or some syncopated sollkATTus that can complement it.

And there is SrngAra in the predominantly devotional ( your words!) compositions of SrI PurandaradAsa et. al. and there is bhakti in predominantly "erotic" ( your words!) themes of SrngAra sampradAya! They are not mutually exclusive.

Bhakti in the devotional works also need sahRdayas to experience it. Mere knowledge of the text and it's reading cannot produce any effect!

TMK is taking this to the streets , with rabble rousing as to why this should remain with just 50 people! But his methods are fraught with other consequences. In an art gallery, it becomes available widely, but it can also become a mere artifact of display. anubhava poRULAka illAmal, kATchi poruLAka mAriviDum. That is my visceral disagreement to the word "art"!

Look at the etymology and see from where the concept "art-for-art's sake" comes from - French!! https://www.etymonline.com/word/art - When are we going to be devoid of this French stench?!

This type of analysis has also given us several wrong assumptions. That sangIta mUla vastu ( essence) is rAgam! Or it started when SrI PurandaradAsa and other dAsAs of KarnAtaka samrAjya made the kIrtana form! Both have been challenged and are patently wrong!

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

RSR wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 16:58
Thyagaraja kruthis are strictly devotional in theme. Secondly, very few have built in swara saahithyam\
Why should swara sahityam be the only indicator of emphasis on art? Krithis like Chakkani Rajamargamu, O Rangashayi, Kaddanuvaariki, e.t.c show great musical merit! The inherent musicality and emphasis on the art form is supreme! Krithis like Peridi Ninnu, Sundari Nee Divya Roopamunu. Deva Shree Tapastheerthapuranivasa have great musical merit. They exist to show the glory of the ragam, be it Kharaharapriya, Kalyani, Kambhoji, or any other ragam that he has employed. Let us give Tyagaraja his due credit for being a fantastic tunesmith and musician, and had a brilliant musical mind that was not limited to narrow interpretations of what "Bhakti" and "Devotion" is.
RSR wrote: 21 Mar 2021, 16:58 There are no 'romantic' music items like Thillanaa, JaavaLi , whether in theme or genre.
This is true of all the three of the Trinity.
Again, Endu Kaugalintura in Shudhadesi by Tyagaraja has many romantic overtones. Sringara bhakti is seen in many of his compositions. Many of the descriptions of the goddess in Shyama Sastri's compositions strongly indicate that he viewed Devi with Sringara bhakti as much as (for lack of a better word) "conventional" bhakti. Also there was an unfinished padavarnam by Ramaswami Dikshitar, Sami Ninne Kori in Sriranjani, that MD, Shyama Sastri and Tanjore Chinnaiah Pillai completed together. The sahityam did have romantic overtones. If the trinity were so averse to romantic lyrics, why would MD and Shyama Sastri, when they met, deliberately sit down and complete Ramaswami Dikshitar's work?

The main problem with the composition classification system mentioned in the previous post is that what constitutes devotional music, and what doesn't, is being misinterpreted. Also, it seems to preclude the possibillty that it is equally possible for a composition to emphasise both devotion and the art equally. It aslo doesn't factor in the possibility of a composition emphasizing devotion towards the art form! To say that Tyagaraja's compositions and the other many compositions we have in CM are merely "devotional" and dedicated to a particular deity and not having emphasis on the art form they are set in, to say that all the krithis we have are meant only for emphasising this narrow utilitarian idea of Bhakti and lack artistic merit or value, is a great disservice and an insult to the composers of the past!! Bhajare Re Chitta Balambikam exists not only to propitiate Balambika, but also explore Kalyani to its fullest! The compositions of CM are inherently artistic, and the bhaktibhavam complements the art, just as the art complements the bhakti! The two are inseparable from CM and from each other! I am not saying that Ragam and Layam are the sole aspects of CM, rather, I'm saying that ragabhavam, layabhavam, sahityabhavam, and (yes) bhaktibhavam must all be equally emphasised. I am also saying that there is more to Bhakti than Devastuti.


There are umpteen example showing us how the trinity, and other composers gave equal emphasis on all these aspects,
1. In many compositions MD has embedded the ragamudra. If the composition was wholly devotional, this was a completely unnecesary thing to do! But he has indicated the ragam name, because the composition exists to highlight the beauty of the ragam it is composed in!
2. Why did Shyama Sastri boldly experiment with layam, by flipping Mishra Chapu on its head? He did it as a musical experiment, for he was passionate about the music and art he used to express his devotion towards Devi, and wanted to see it develop also!
3. Why did MD, Tyagaraja and even Swathi Thirunal compose in western tunes (nottuswarams) and not stick to traditional weighty Shankarabharanams and Bhairavis? Because at the core, they were musicians and passionate about the art, and willing to perform musical experiments to try and broaden the horizons of CM!
4. In many of his compositions, Tyagaraja has exhibited Ninda stuti. He has used Telugu slang in many compositions. Why would he use such stuff in his sahityam, if everything was purely devotional? Its because he also agreed with many interpretations of Bhakti.

I could go on and on....

Thus, they were equally passionate about the art and did compose to nourish the art as it is, and they also explored all the Nava Vidhas of Bhakti through it! CM does channel Bhakti, but it channels all the kinds of Bhakti, even the romantic kind!

The CM tradition, until quite recently recognized this fact. It is only now that we have lost an objective perspective and are sticking to this confined idea of Sampradayam, Bhakti and what not, and forcing this idea upon great composers like those of the past, even twisting and distorting facts to conveniently suit our own narrow ideas. One hopes, that we recognize the trinity and other composers for what they were, and stop viewing them through the narrow lens of "Bhakti" that we seem to don.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

Facts don't matter. People can also pluck out facts according to their own convenience. It is the philosophy and a deep cultural knowledge that is material here. Secondly the the four facts you cited somehow assumes innovation is only the forte of the trinity. Completely wrong. If SrI Purandaradasa formulated the gItams and patterns of teaching , that is innovation. Granted this is only an orally passed on information that is attributed to him. But that is indeed innovation. When Jayadeva wrote his GIta govindam, he set a new standard of composition, that is innovation.

Human creativity is not something special and not confined to one era. For same reasons we don't credit our ancients. They were a technological society going by archaeological finds!

And now if you are saying trinity stand out because of their innovation, I'd say indeed it is their innovation that had made music a sustainable profession today. But you yourself declare ARI paddhati as an unmitigated disaster, when that very paddhati stands on their said innovation - which is viSrAnti!

And who said nAma sankItrana tradition is without innovation or the so called "art" component?? Abhang sampradaya shifts the beat of jAlra, completely counter intuitive to the ways of dakshiNa sampradaya - to add to your No (3).

And now to resolve "padagarbha" issues one must apply the insights gained from ARI paddhati only. It may not have been a priority for them, but the essential laya control needed to keep the musical flow while addressing "padagarbha" issues comes from the essence of that paddhati only. Some of that flair could have flown from earlier laya forte of pallavi musicians. But it is now part of it.

When we say ARI paddhati, we shouldn't put that as well, into some narrow box we imagine as well! if some people took the form of it, but did not try to absorb all the strengths of it, don't blame the paddhati.

It is also the lack patronage as well , i.e. the patronage did not grow by leaps and bounds commensurate to the spread of knowledgeable and informed rasikas and everybody else loosely connected to the sampradaya - across the world. The patronage is only patchy. Patronage includes the time commitment of rasikas to attend and listen as well.

That would have given confidence to musicians to innovate as well. Innovation hence did not evolve organically.

Instead you have revival attempts, You have a Mudhra that tries to revive the pallavi tradition -is that ARI paddhati?. And forced Lec Dems which try to present Padama/JavaLis in new light.

As early as 2004 or 2005, Chicago Thyagaraja utsavam (mind you Thyagaraja utsavam! ) organized a full lec Dem with full singing as well, of Smt Nirmala and Subhashini Parathasarathy on the topic of Padams and JavaLis inside the Sri Rama temple - (mind you inside Rama Temple!) How bold!!! The temple trustees were present as well!!

In my small town same musicians performed Azhwar pasurams at the temple! Depends on what is appropriate to which group.

It doesn't be have to your run of the mill 2 - 3 Hr concert. All these musicians tour the U.S , some of them trained in this Genre. They should perform to SahRdayas in the week intervening informally. In fact no accompaniment is needed. The genre will remain! It has to be kept alive in Sabda rUpam to sahRdayas!!

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 03:13 Facts don't matter. People can also pluck out facts according to their own convenience. It is the philosophy and a deep cultural knowledge that is material here. Secondly the the four facts you cited somehow assumes innovation is only the forte of the trinity. Completely wrong. If SrI Purandaradasa formulated the gItams and patterns of teaching , that is innovation. Granted this is only an orally passed on information that is attributed to him. But that is indeed innovation. When Jayadeva wrote his GIta govindam, he set a new standard of composition, that is innovation.

Human creativity is not something special and not confined to one era. For same reasons we don't credit our ancients. They were a technological society going by archaeological finds!
And I am in complete agreement! I am not saying that the trinity were the first to innovate! Since the previous posts were focused on the trinity my points too were based on them and their musical acheivements. I do believe that every composer and vakgeyakara of the past (and the present, to a certain extent) was innovative, and had the greatest passion for the growth and development of the art form. I have the deepest respects for Purandaradasa, Sripadaraya, Jayadeva, Govindasamayya, Sarangapani, Shargyadeva, Venkatamakhin, Govinda Dikshitar and all the other musicians, musicologists and composers of the past, and their innovative musical minds!
shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 03:13 And now if you are saying trinity stand out because of their innovation, I'd say indeed it is their innovation that had made music a sustainable profession today. But you yourself declare ARI paddhati as an unmitigated disaster, when that very paddhati stands on their said innovation - which is viSrAnti!
I have called the modern kutcheri paddhati an unmitigated disaster, because it does a grand disservice to the innovative musicality of the composers. According to me it doesn't stand on their innovation, but to a large extent undermines it.
shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 03:13
And who said nAma sankItrana tradition is without innovation or the so called "art" component?? Abhang sampradaya shifts the beat of jAlra, completely counter intuitive to the ways of dakshiNa sampradaya - to add to your No (3).
The nama sankeertana tradition does have many artistic aspects, but it isn't inherently concerned with the expansion and development of that artistic component, or so I have studied and experienced. I am not demeaning the Nama Sankeertanam tradition, but merely arguing that in those traditions, the artistic component is not focused upon, whereas the artistic aspect is given great emphasis and importance in CM.
shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 03:13 And now to resolve "padagarbha" issues one must apply the insights gained from ARI paddhati only. It may not have been a priority for them, but the essential laya control needed to keep the musical flow while addressing "padagarbha" issues comes from the essence of that paddhati only. Some of that flair could have flown from earlier laya forte of pallavi musicians. But it is now part of it.
I confess that I am unable to fully understand what you are driving at here. Could you please elaborate?
shankarank wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 03:13 When we say ARI paddhati, we shouldn't put that as well, into some narrow box we imagine as well! if some people took the form of it, but did not try to absorb all the strengths of it, don't blame the paddhati.
I accept your point. I however personally believe that, to the best of my ability, I have objectively analysed the concert paddhati of today, and I find it sorely lacking. Almost every single artiste I have listened to who employed this paddhati, seemed constrained by the format to me. The compositions felt constrained to me when presented through this format also. For me, this was not a one-off experience, but happened almost every single time. If I experienced the same problem with every artiste who has employed this format, I can't blame them all can I? I concede that it may not be the same for other people, and respect your opinions, as I respect the opinions of every other rasika who has contributed to this thread.

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

Sami Ninne Kori in Sriranjani, that MD, Shyama Sastri and Tanjore Chinnaiah Pillai completed together.
It was a rare celestial event wherein Chinnasvamy Diksitar (not Chinniah Pillai) joined with others :D.
or any other ragam that he has employed. Let us give Tyagaraja his due credit for being a fantastic tunesmith and musician, and had a brilliant musical mind that was not limited to narrow interpretations of what "Bhakti" and "Devotion" is.
There is a third dimension to this. The sahityas display their attitude, their feelings, and emotions. Our opinions, interpretations, and knowledge are immaterial. We need to understand them (through their sahitya) to enjoy their sahitya.
compose in western tunes (nottuswarams) and not stick to traditional weighty Shankarabharanams and Bhairavis?
Very true. They were much inclusive. They have incorporated almost every other genre extant during their times. One good example would be the kriti of Svamigal 'e ramuni' in the raga Vakulabharanam. The reconstructed version resembles Arabian music. Myself and @SrinathK has spent hours discussing the musical structure of this kriti. This Arabian touch is lost in the modern versions, mainly because of our mindset. We want every tune to be 'Carnatic'. And, we have made our own definitions for the term 'Carnatic'. I can cite several examples like this and all becomes possible only if we come out of the "carnatic" shell.
I have listened to who employed this paddhati, seemed constrained by the format to me.
Not only the format is to be blamed. We have restricted ourselves by giving an image to our music. We are unable to appreciate anything else outside the realm of the modern-day Carnatic music. This is the problem many could face while listening to the old versions. As I always say, our music is like a 'Parabrahmam'. It can take all possible forms and shapes. Appreciating or not appreciating it as a 'parabrahma' lies with the maturity of the listener.

The Lost Melodies
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by The Lost Melodies »

People who find difficulty in accepting srungara as a form of bhakthi can go through the works of Sri Ramasvamy Diksitar and his descendant Sri Subbarama Diksitar (SuRa). Many of their ragamalikas incorporate both these elements seamlessly. A good translation of the ragamalika 'samaja gamana' by @rshankar is available here.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=34908


Whenever they praise their patron, they also make a point to invoke a deity (usually the family deity of their patron) to bless the hero. In the mentioned ragamalika, Tyagesa of Tiruvarur was invoked. The same approach is also seen in the ragamalikas of SuRa.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

A few objections to the statements in the preceding posts.
----
1) Height of irreverent insolence to imply that SS has composed kruthis on Devi, viewing her as an object of 'srungara', just an euphemism for lust.

2) The purpose of CM compositions as created by Purandaradasa, Kanakadasa, Badrachalam, SS, Thyagaraja Swami as evinced by the lyrics, is to promote the concept of personal God and to spread and propagate the message of social equality and ethical life free from
The four evils of 'lust, hatred, avarice and infatuation '.
The devotional path is available to everyone. Wonderfully stated in Purandaradasa's ' kaliyugadali hari Naama' song.
His other song 'daasanamadiko enne' should be the prayer for good souls.

3) It is only the compositions of the Trinity that are available to us as 'music'
Perhaps, a few of the songs of Purandaradasa are available through the oral tradition but mostly, retuned and collected by MLV's mother.
4) The classification of Thyagaraja kruthis as DivyaNaama Sankeerthanam and 'kruthis' is artificial and arrogant. SSP itself says that kruthi and keerthanam are synonymous.

5) Fortunately, human mind has limited time in a day to think -
a life of 'karma yagam' does not allow it to focus on spiritual dhyanam and prayer. Music helps in propagating socially good values. It can also be misused by erotic entertainment songs.

Films and TV shows are already doing that 'service' abundantly.
If the composers whom I have mentioned had left their compositions as just notations without words, that would be 'pure' music. That was not their objective.
What were they praying to the Almighty? Personal fame and wealth? I tend to believe that SS and Swami were praying for the divine experience of trance. of seeing their chosen deity in human form in real life.
May be a respectful study of the life, experiences and teachings of Ramakrushna Pramahamsa will bring out the meaning of much misused word 'bakthi margam'.

knowledge and skill, without firm commitment to social welfare and values, are not merely worthless but dangerous evil too.

Just to 'prove' one's preference for dance music, let us not sink low to denigrate the Trinity.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

#P114 -> While all of the things you say have merit, the following is not.
RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 It <Music> can also be misused by erotic entertainment songs.
By singing padams and jAvaLis , no such entertainment is being sought. In that music session, the beauty of the composition, the flow of music of the language, the rAga bhAvA is being enjoyed. For those who do understand the sAhitya, some Telugu people who may encounter it first time may squirm - likely those who don't know the background. But I would say if singing these is going to cause dharmic harm , I would leave it to the Women overall to judge it. They rightly or wrongly will judge it without bias. Let them decide, in each community. Lets not make grand pronouncements.

RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 The classification of Thyagaraja kruthis as DivyaNaama Sankeerthanam and 'kruthis' is artificial and arrogant. SSP itself says that kruthi and keerthanam are synonymous.
The classification is actually based on the level of laya viSrAnti and consequently the level of rAga BhAva in the composition. For want of better terms, kIrtana was connoted with nAma sankIrtana tradition! May be it is to do with singing Hari's kIrthi. Kriti is to connote something that has been well set in structure. These are some conventional/informal connotations that have come in vogue. Not something that needs a "scriptural" supplant. In fact ARI paddhati is based on that only. Not about which song is fast and which is slow. More later in response to some of @Ananthakrishna's points.
RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 I tend to believe that SS and Swami were praying for the divine experience of trance. of seeing their chosen deity in human form in real life.
And the irony here is, all through the golden era we see no evidence that listeners were seeking clear enunciation of sAhitya or making an issue of it, a pre-requisite if one were to experience the trance that you are talking about, especially 150 years since the vaggEyakkAras. As well as post that , especially when people were supposed to be more informed/educated, nobody showed up for Dr. Lokanatha Sarma's expositions , what with a superb tonal voice, where one would experience the emphasis of sAhitya so well without any kutchery craft. And even as a kutcheri it was never below the demands of it in terms of verve. So what are we supposed to understand from this? That people were seeking an artistic experience? Or were they getting entertained? Or ARI paddhadati of svaram and neraval became a dogma? And we have people who have the gal to call the system "Brahminical" to top everything! Somebody says this is some "art" and we parrot it. But the guys who say "art" never cared about this thing. Only we do. Yeah there is one guy from Paris who invites all these musicians after a season visit and reconnaissance. He shouldn't set the narrative for me!!

After all this, we are told , we caged this in Bhakti and hence it could never reach them. If all those who now complain, really think like you and see this with an universal eye as regards what you call as "bhakti", we wouldn't be talking. You don't know the amount of hatred , the modern thought processes have taught people, when they look at heritage.

So what did our people do? They ritually came and were entranced by the music and sought it! And the word "art" has been imposed on them from outside!
RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 1) Height of irreverent insolence to imply that SS has composed kruthis on Devi, viewing her as an object of 'srungara', just an euphemism for lust.
I agree we don't need to attribute this as a particular. But SrngAra tatva is different and is not tied to human guNas.
RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 3) It is only the compositions of the Trinity that are available to us as 'music'
Perhaps, a few of the songs of Purandaradasa are available through the oral tradition but mostly, retuned and collected by MLV's mother.

..
If the composers whom I have mentioned had left their compositions as just notations without words, that would be 'pure' music. That was not their objective.
Again a mistake in my idiom of music. There is already music in the songs. They added melody part. You cannot keep holding that music is melody only. There is no pure music like that in DakshiNa sampradayam. Aksharas and mAtras are music! So instrumentalists also use them. And it is wrong to say they adopt a gayaki style. Many times they can execute a smooth gamaka that "sounds like voice" better than any voice can do. MVI's thoNDaiyA pADum? gnandAneyA pAdum is relevant here!

RSR wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:50 Just to 'prove' one's preference for dance music, let us not sink low to denigrate the Trinity.
Nope. Padams and JavaLis have their lilt and verve in the musical space by themselves. Not necessary to abhinayiccufy them. Inda kalashEtra seminar symposium vellaiyellam inga vENAM! And even dance is not denigration. You have sunk low here.

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

Rsr age not withstanding, I think you have no idea of the difference between shringara bhakti and ordinary lust. Now we are certain. Of course you are always going to deny anything that you are not comfortable with as bogus. You have on one occasion claimed even sAdinchanE to be spurious.

I may add that saundarya lahari is full of shringara and yet no one can fault Adi Shankara for composing it, can they?

Say what you will, but all the great devotees in history have not eschewed that dimension. Many great mahapurushas of far greater qualifications than you or I in history have praised it when it is directed towards the supreme Being. They have not however encouraged any of their followers to indulge in any sort of loose behaviours.

While it is true there is a vast difference between one's own personal spiritual practice to one's chosen deity vs public performance, and there must be appropriate discretion in public so as to not gather the wrong kind of attention, ultimately even dance is a sacred space and an expression of the feminine. To call it a sin is to admit the sin is really within oneself.

The original definition of the word "sin" is to miss the mark. What does that mean? Interestingly In history, all those who have tried hard to declare others as sinners are often guilty of committing many sins in the name of punishing sinners. Even terrorists routinely killing innocents believe they fight a holy war. Cult followers are brainwashed into doing anything in the name of God right? They justify it by calling others as sinners which gives them God sanctioned authority apparently.

There is a group of people who throughout history have claimed all idol worship is the greatest sin for e.g, but their 1000 year track record of violence and destruction in the name of fighting "sin" I suppose, is not a "sin"?

Auragazeb was one person in history who declared music and art and all that to be sinful. But one can see where his so called piety led him. All the destruction and finally dying as a nobody in an unmarked grave (which I've seen). So this whole idea of "sin", I'm not buying it. Aurganzeb totally missed the mark. Ultimately what will this man be remembered for?

All forms of love whether dasya, sakhya, vatsalya or shringara can be either divine or sinful. All have been created by Nature and ultimately even the great divine ecstasy and freedom from suffering sought by seekers is the same energy only taken to its absolute peak where it merges into consciousness.

The exalted parental love or friendship isn't free from sins either. One only needs to see the Mahabharata or so many examples in real life. Love is a crime but honor killing isn't? A male child will take you to heaven so does that justify female infanticide? So what is a sin or what isn't? Should I declare all parental love to be sin or stop kids from ever making friends?

There are people who have done human and animal sacrifices to Kali in the name of worshipping the Divine mother. One culture has declared that worshipping all feminine deities is a sin, but we know what they have done over a millenia. So what is sin? Well it's kind of clear from the results and seeing karma in action.

Any evolution of consciousness must happen naturally and backed by experience instead of dogma. Say what you want about dharma, but life is a guru of it's own and has its own ways of teaching you lessons in proper context. Many religions have failed to learn the difference between dogma and real spirituality. For the sake of attaining heaven tomorrow, people are making hell on earth today. Is that not a sin?

First let's be realistic. No amount of hearing padams or javalis on a concert stage has "corrupted" any person or culture that I am ever aware of. I know many more people who've died from imitating dangerous stunts and using touchscreens while driving. So is the phone a sin or driving while distracted the sin?

You come from the patriotic generation. Are you not aware what was the original reason for the Europeans coming to India? Yes, religion. The greatest genocide in history was the conquest of North and South America, where so many people died from disease mad wars it led to global cooling. Ironically religion was behind quite a bit of that, preaching eternal life but spreading instant death? In corona times, we get a taste how fragile our existence used to be. The irony -- that is the real meaning of the word sin.

So this whole sringara fear over a padam is so overrated compared to so many real problems and real sins in the world. Yes there are going to be sick people in the world who will cheat and abuse and rape and murder, but is it the same thing as bhakti or beautiful relationships? Can one not even see that obvious a difference? Are both in the same category?

You too have openly stated once on this very forum you wanted many kritis of Annamacharya burned and buried. For you even videos of instrumentalists or musicians performing are sinful and you keep declaring that at every opportunity, not even acknowledging the immense benefits to serious aspirants of music.

The line of sin is a thin one and more people cross it in the name of purity than anything else. Spiritual egos are real. Calling others sinners comes from fear, and fear leads to its own sins. Soon it's only a matter of time before the sinner pointer becomes the sinner oneself.

In research facts matter over opinions. You can choose always to avoid what is uncomfortable to you and we don't mind that. But this can't be used to insist that all others are wrong even when there are plenty of facts. You claiming SSP is fake, seriously? Yes, even we also feel that not all kritis of the Dikshitar school or even Thyagaraja are there and we ourselves have lamented about what all was lost due to SD's early demise. But this doesn't mean every kriti out there is also genuine. Everything must be studied case by case only.

Please don't make uninformed claims. In politics, rhetoric is more important in facts, in research it is the other way around.

Your well wisher. All of us have come here to contribute what little we can to the music. You have also been doing much good work. It is only my wish we all are known in the end for our contribution to music, the cause that brings us together, than all this.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

The Lost Melodies wrote: 22 Mar 2021, 20:28
Sami Ninne Kori in Sriranjani, that MD, Shyama Sastri and Tanjore Chinnaiah Pillai completed together.
It was a rare celestial event wherein Chinnasvamy Diksitar (not Chinniah Pillai) joined with others :D.
Thanks a lot for correcting me! I got confused.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

Smt.MS ' Yaamarintha Mozhikalile, Thamizh mozhi poal inithaavathengum '
- poem by Subramanya Barathy.
a Ragamalika

https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... ozhikallae

This is for @shankarank
There is no beat here.
A classic illustration ' music is essentially a matter of tune. ( imagine this to be played in some instrument). But, for people who know literary Thamizh, the lyrics add their own beauty by way of literary execellence and theme.
It is not the same as reading it as a mere poem in a book.
---
You are consistently and wrongly mistaking literary rhyming with music. So, blatantly absurd.

CRama
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by CRama »

Ananthakrishna. IN your post #111, you have said that the Ari padhathi is restricting the manodharmam of the artistes. I am just curious about your observation. This has been told by some other people also in the recent past. I just want to know how it comes in the way of manodharmam of the musician taking the example of some popular musicians- like Semmangudi, Madurai Mani Iyer or Sanjay Subramaniam or Ramakrishnan Murthy. Please explain this to me. Also how to facilitate free flow of manodharmam for the musician if he does not follow this paddhathi.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

Let me state my take on ARI paddhati:

1. A tyAgarAjAya namastE should not be sung at the end of a concert!
2. A rUpaka tALam medium tempo kriti or a khaNDa cApu, not the cauka roopakam, with a good viSranti should be sung before a very cauka Adi tAlam, miSra cApu tAlAm kriti. - this is somewhat of a musical common sense in a system that values a certain sense of beauty and appropriateness.

Rest of speed variations are just insecurity of the musician who thinks he/she may lose the interest of the audience. So even if ARI were to do it, I would not consider these as seminal to his paddhati.

Raga neraval, svara prastAram flowed from pallavi tradition itself into an abridged form considering time constraints.

Rest of the ways people try to project the paddhati are simply attempts to use "for example" method , instead of "abstract" , "general" statements. Even I have followed the former method!

Neraya pERukku oru example veccu sonnAtaan puriyum!

CRama
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by CRama »

I am waiting for Ananthakrishna's reply. Especially, restricting the manodharmam. Or to put it another way, if one does nor follow this paddhathi, how he can display his abundant manodharmam without restraint.

shreyas
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shreyas »

@CRama sir I would just like to chip in briefly. I agree with Ananthakrishna about restricting manodharma because more often than not the nature and length of manodharma in today's concerts is determined by the song's placement in a concert. For example, Vinayaka krithis have been given short shrift because they are presented earlier on in the concert. Padams are rarely sung, first of all, and when they are it is at the end of a concert. The length and quality of 'submain' and 'main' alapanas is also determined by the same, restricting the possibility for expansive manodharma earlier in the concert.

Taking both MDR and TMK as examples, MDR flouted the conventional paddhati by singing varnams elaborately, beginning with the Bhairavi swarajathi etc. and his manodharma flourished. There is barely anyone who can sing a Mohana like MDR because he didn't give two hoots about whether Nannu Palimpa was the first, third, fifth or fifteenth song in the concert. On the other hand, TMK categorically states that he does not like the concert format, and while his music today is admittedly banal and lacking in good manodharma, TMK at his prime rebel time was a musical phenom, because he was able to forget about where his songs were in the grand scheme of things of the 'kutcheri.' By singing a one-hour Devi Sri Tulasamma as the first piece in the concert, he was able to explore whatever he wanted from Mayamalavagowla that day as opposed to restraining himself because he was out of time.

The ARI paddathi encourages one to judge the value of a piece by virtue of its position in a concert. What Carnatic music needs today is a valuation of pieces based on their individual aesthetic spheres and not in context of a 2 hour performance.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

CRama wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 16:51 Ananthakrishna. IN your post #111, you have said that the Ari padhathi is restricting the manodharmam of the artistes. I am just curious about your observation. This has been told by some other people also in the recent past. I just want to know how it comes in the way of manodharmam of the musician taking the example of some popular musicians- like Semmangudi, Madurai Mani Iyer or Sanjay Subramaniam or Ramakrishnan Murthy. Please explain this to me. Also how to facilitate free flow of manodharmam for the musician if he does not follow this paddhathi.
Post #111 was actually meant to say that the modern kutcheri paddhati doesn't allow for the full display of the innovative musical ideas of the composers. However, I do also believe that the modern paddhati is restricting the free flow of the artistes' manodharmam. I'll try and illustrate this with examples.

Disclaimer: I sincerely respect and adore all the artistes of the past ans present, and I neither mean to compare, nor criticize the artistes, links to whose recordings I shall use as examples.

1. Manodharmam for the varnam-
Typical paddhati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEz0cqRtVQ
Atypical elaborated form: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evdE1SIFGy4

We can see that the time bound typical format firstly doesn't allow for the complete varnam to be presented, as TMK has done. Also the full extent of the manodharmam possibilities of this varnam can't be explored by the artiste, because the varnam is the first piece, and a "throatwarmer". Thus the artiste can't make use of the beautiful places for manodharmam offerred to him.

2. Manodharmam for the smaller pieces-

Any piece selected to be a small piece, like a filler, can not be sufficiently explored. And often such krithis are never taken as mains, or submains often. So the artistes' freedom to explore the melodic contours of the ragam is severely restricted. Example is the ragam Manji. Because of it sslow nature, singing it as a main or a decently long sub-main is not easy in the time bound kutcheri format.
Typical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eADZ1uoe6Hg
Atypical: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V2BKrCo2Yqw

3. Neraval-

Neraval rendition in this format is severly shortened. This is because the paddhati focuses on showing variety of compositions, not variety of musical expression. And so, neraval is not sufficiently explored. Also, there are many other illogical "unwritten rules" out there, dictating where in a krithi must neraval be performed. Such imposed restrictions on time. extent and even lines chosen for the exploration of neraval severely curtail free musical expression.

Compare the duration of the neraval to any other aspect of manodharmam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juxtdLbxTEo
Neraval is not sufficiently explored

4. Tanam-

In the modern kutcheri tradition (excluding veena recitals), tanam has became a piece exclusively a part of the RTP. It is neither dealt with in sufficient detail in the RTP, nor is it elaborated anywhere else. This is mainly again due to the slotted nature of the paddhati, "There is a tanam slot in the RTP subsection of the post main section, and it must be sung only there." Such unwriten rules about this paddhati restrict free musical expression, for tanam, an essential aspect of manodharam, is not explored.

Free flow elaboration absent in modern paddhati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sACI3vSdVjA

5. Ragam elaboration-

Here I don't just mean ragam alapanam, Tanam also falls under this category. Any exposition of a ragam is treated as just a prefix, or an introduction, to the composition. So no ragam is explored for itself, just to enjoy the melodic contours of the ragam. We as artistes are constantly thinking of the composition that shall follow the alapanam rather than the alapanam itself. So the alapanam is actually limited by the scope of the composition that we have planned.
Alse there is the unwritten rule that the violinist's alapanam should be around 1/2-3/4 the duration of the vocalist's, Does this not actually constrain the instrumentalist?

Bangalore Nagaratnam apparently sang ragams as isolated pieces in concerts. Alapanams in specific ragams were even requested by rasikas! That tradition has been forgotten, but ARI's and Poochi's has not!!!

6. Fillers-

The very concept of a filler bothers me deeply. That the melodic contours of a ragam and a composition will not be explored just because its position in a concert dictates that it shouldn't is an insult to the composition and the abilities of the artiste.

These are what are coming to my mind now. There are many other points I'd like to make about Padam elaboration, what I like to call "Subtle Manodharma" and finally artist and audience expectations. I'll elaborate on these in a later post!

Also I'd like to say that I completely agree with what @shreyas said. The current kutcheri paddhati accords more importance to the slot of the composition than the composition itself, and so manodharmam and creative expression is not valued as much as it needs to be. There is more emphasis on singing a set number of compositions than doing full justive to every composition presented. This is what curtails the expressive freedom of the artiste.

I guess I visualise an utopian CM society, where after we are done with objectively evaluating this format, we can take its good points, scrap the "slot system" and the krithi list pattern, and actually allow each artiste to have their own paddhati! That way, an artiste is truly free to explore the music, and we as rasikas will actually experience a greater variety of, and better music!
Last edited by Ananthakrishna on 23 Mar 2021, 22:57, edited 1 time in total.

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

I run away when I hear the word utopia. :lol: :lol: Why? Because that word is a sign of inexperience. I know, years back I was there too. Easy to say, always falls flat on its face when given a reality check.

There are a few factors to consider about the concert packaging vs the actual limit of a musician's capability. Remember that any musician is performing for an audience, a very limited audience, and among them they will differ widely in their musical aptitudes.

1) How much music the audience can handle and to what extent a musician can push their comfort zones. For this reason even musicians with vast repertoires often spent a few years popularizing only a handful of compositions at a time.

One reason why the need for a concert format came up was because of the gramophone that allowed very short musical pieces to sell en masse. Film music stole the plot and has stuck to the tradition of having a song no longer than approx. 5 min till this day. All of a sudden compositions were the rage and everyone wanted T-3 min songs and not 4 hour+ test matches. The difference is far more drastic than tests and T-20s. With the decline of Royal patronage, CM had to adapt or go the way of the dodo.

Also we must admit, some of us here are extremely serious rasikas because our real occupations are being music students and not really rasikas. :lol: We know that a lot that can happen in class in exploring the music hardly makes it to the stage. Even the best admit that. Where else will one explore pUrvikalyANi for 2 hours? So we aren't rasikas in that sense.

Most people will not care for all the high fi stuff we are capable of taking. We also forget that many of us are products of an information overload age, where things are too easily available. Go back 50-60 years, what would an audience know and how would a musician satisfy most of them?

2) Being aware of the energy level of the audience. It has its own ebb and flow. Miss it and you lose the connection. It is not necessary that only the standard concert pattern alone can do this job well, but it is a time tested formula. It knows where to keep the audience at the edge of their seats, where to keep them absorbed and where to let them relax. ARI was a master of this.

3) A musician will have many elements to face that are never the same on a given day. Usually the voice, imagination and fatigue and getting into the zone, are the biggest variables. Also many back to back concerts (often more than one a day for some) totally exhaust the mind and body, and it's necessary they fall back on something very reliable and not lose their way on stage. Musicians would admit it is much easier to prepare for a concert with a proper well established plan than to come up with a plan Totally from scratch.

The musician's energy level also varies througgout a concert. You never know, those few kritis sung as fillers or to keep the audience engaged (pure composition singing doesn't involve much to think about) may be just the break they themselves need to let their imaginations recharge for the main number. The tani might help their voices relax for a while. Again all great musicians are also aware of their own energy levels on any given day at any point during the concert and adjust so well and so subtly the audience never knows it.

For e.g. keeping shloka or viruttam after the tani gives the percussion team their only potential break after exhausting themselves. It also helps the vocalist and violinist warm up again if needed.

4) Being totally spontaneous in the name of "true art" actually doesn't work all the time and actually isn't what it seems in the long run of things. Musicians who do this after a while end up falling back on memory and repetitive patterns and numbers without realizing it. A bit of planning could actually help them notice this and consciously avoid it where it is holding them back.

5) Some audiences look forward to their musician's special numbers while others want variety. Structure helps find a balance of both.

6) You can sing a huge repertoire with it.

7) Specialist fare concerts find favour from time to time, but they have not been able to replace the standard concert on a routine basis. Because neither the audience nor the musicians themselves can prepare themselves for specialist operations for every single concert in a jam packed year round schedule with lots of travelling and fatigue.

8) It has great scaling capability. It can fit into any kind of time slot from 15 min to 5 hours and all in between and in fact does offer quite a bit of scope for customization and stylistic variations despite the format. Not everyone makes equal use of it.

9) It takes much more capability to find a different way to conclude a concert as well as the standard pattern does it. Other adhoc attempts have sometimes left the audience hanging mid air. And let's also admit it, varnams are always a great starting piece, even if a concert can be sung entirely of varnams.

So getting rid of structure or structured thinking altogether isn't going to work for too long. It is not a magic pill solution. Creating a solution that works and stands the test of time isn't as simple as it seems. That works only for a while. It takes a lot of time and growth and many ideas before one can find a truly original solution.

Now looking at some of the issues with the "standard" concert pattern.

1) What most people forget about tradition is this -- One great person's innovation becomes a lesser mortal's tradition. Ultimately all that is called tradition is really a very successful innovation that stood the test of time. A lot of people get so upset when a musician tries to do something out of the ordinary but not understanding this.

2) A lot of people uttering japa of the word "tradition" don't really know the tradition. Their ideas are at best no older than their grandparents.
The concert pattern was an innovation, today it is considered a tradition. Some people can be fanatic about it.

3) The standard concert pattern is partial to krithis over all other compositions -- it doesn't let you know the full scope of varnams or more manodharma possibilites for other items. This was intentional as it was developed in a time where kritis were becoming the bread and butter of Carnatic Music. But today other compositions are surely complaining. Even the RTP is a casuality as most concerts skip it.

Varnams for one are extraordinary versatile, far more than kritis. There are so many things that can be done with them. Even a tillana can be a sub main item when it is given the full "works". Such possibilites only require some tweaking to the format in terms of song selection, but often even that is frowned on by audiences who don't want to stretch their comfort zones.

4) Ultimately it is a general practioner -- best suited for a variety of kriti heavy fare and is a best fit to audiences of all capacities and tastes. But for more specialist work (one raga concerts, thematic concerts, RTP pallavi darbars, high manodharma test matches, focus on other types of compositions, playing for deity processions, or any sort of extreme stuff that aims for depth over breadth), the patterned concert would only be in the way.

But such specialist fare requires far more preparation and can't be done day in and day out with the same intensity or consistency.

5) A personal gripe after hearing many a standard pattern concert is that things can get far too cliche. I know exactly what to expect with the varnam, what comes next, what will be in the alapana, where the brighas will be, where the neraval will be, how many rounds it will be, what they will do in the swaras, which is the submain and main numbers, often what korvai will be sung, even what the percussion will play. And of course the mangalam. Only after covering all these bases do I see something that was really different or original.

6) There are other ways to start a concert that are equally popular outside CM. HM musicians start with a very slow opening of a raga Alaap, and for them that is as important to preserving their voices as it is to establishing a musical atmosphere. Western classic music programs start with the main numbers, the sonata or concerto and then spend the 2nd half in lighter numbers. Sometimes there is no 2nd half. Again it's all about getting it to work. But only a lot of experimentation can determine if these approaches are suitable for mainstream CM and not specialist concerts.

7) Any musician will always find a concert falling short of what is possible at home. But audiences will never know that music, nor can an artiste truly present it without limitations on stage. So let's not demand the impossible.0
Last edited by SrinathK on 23 Mar 2021, 23:59, edited 13 times in total.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-116
@SrinathK
--
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... va-janatho
----------------------
Your post p-110 is not worth replying at all. It is full of canards, lies, mirespresentation, and whatnot.
--
Who are those 'mahanubavas' who have condoned and appreciated cheap 'record-dance' stuff , as the essence of CM?
I suppose a diehard devotee of Smt.MS not merely for her music but for her values in life, ks an aurangazeeb! Strange logic!

I do not need your welwishes. If you persist in your slander, I will have to report.
Last edited by RSR on 24 Mar 2021, 08:55, edited 1 time in total.

Ananthakrishna
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

SrinathK wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 22:35 I run away when I hear the word utopia. :lol: :lol: Why? Because that word is a sign of inexperience. I know, years back I was there too.
I see what you mean. I concede that I am quite young, and still in my formative years as a student of music and a rasika! Apologies for some of my more "childish" ideas and views :D :D
There are a few actors to consider about the concert packaging vs the actual limit of a musician's capability. Remember that any musician is performing for an audience, a very limited audience, and among them they will differ widely in their musical aptitudes.

1) How much music the audience can handle and to what extent a musician can push their comfort zones. For this reason even musicians with vast repertoires often spent a few years popularizing only a handful of compositions at a time.

Also we must admit, some of us here are extremely serious rasikas because our real occupations are being music students and not really rasikas. :lol: We know that a lot that can happen in class in exploring the music hardly makes it to the stage. Even the best admit that. Where else will one explore pUrvikalyANi for 2 hours?

Most people will not care for all the high fi stuff we are capable of taking. We also forget that many of us are products of an information overload age, where things are too easily available. Go back 50-60 years, what would an audience know and how would a musician satisfy most of them?

2) Being aware of the energy level of the audience. It has its own ebb and flow. Miss it and you lose the connection. It is not necessary that only the standard concert pattern alone can do this job well, but it is a time tested formula. It knows where to keep the audience at the edge of their seats, where to keep them absorbed and where to let them relax. ARI was a master of this.

3) A musician will have many elements to face that are never the same on a given day. Usually the voice, imagination and fatigue and getting into the zone, are the biggest variables. Also many back to back concerts (often more than one a day for some) totally exhaust the mind and body, and it's necessary they fall back on something very reliable and not lose their way on stage. Musicians would admit it is much easier to prepare for a concert will a set paradigm than to come up with a plan Totally from scratch.

4) Being totally spontaneous in the name of "true art" actually doesn't work all the time and actually isn't what it seems in the long run of things. Musicians who do this after a while end up falling back on memory and repetitive patterns and numbers without realizing it. A bit of planning could actually help them notice this and consciously avoid it where it is holding them back.

5) Some audiences look forward to their musician's special numbers while others want variety. Structure helps find a balance of both.
Some very valid and sensible points made! I however still wonder, given that the structure is not allowing for innovations, if each artiste is allowed to tweak it according to their sensibilities, won't it help them express themselves better? Why only one structure? Why can't we accept different structures, and let each artiste develop their own structure, and not just develop their style to adjust to the concert structure as is being done today?

So getting rid of structure or structured thinking altogether isn't going to work for too long. It is not a magic pill solution. Creating a solution that works and stands the test of time isn't as simple as it seems. That works only for a while. It takes a lot of time and growth and many ideas before one can find a truly original solution.
I agree that a structured thinking is necessary. What I find a problem with is

1) The current paddhati and structure is forced on every artiste. I think that a "one size fits all" approach is not conducive to Carnatic music and its presentation. Every artiste has their own unique musical sensibilities, which this paddhati does not account for. Why should there be only one form of structure?

2) The structure put in place may have worked for ARI, (a point I actually disagree with based on my own listening experience), but it surely didn't work for all. There still are flaws in it as you have also pointed out. I have a problem when we aren't allowed to question and objectively analyse a paddhati just because musicians of the recent past followed it. If ARI and Poochi were allowed to experiment and evolve a format, why isn't the artiste of today allowed to do the same?
Now looking at some of the issues with the concert pattern.

1) What most people forget about tradition is this -- One great person's innovation becomes a lesser mortal's tradition. Ultimately all that is called tradition is really a very successful innovation that stood the test of time. A lot of people get so upset when a musician tries to do something out of the ordinary but not understanding this.

2) A lot of people uttering japa of the word "tradition" don't really know the tradition. Their ideas are at best no older than their grandparents.

3) The standard concert pattern doesn't let you know the full scope of varnams or more manodharma possibilites for other items. Tanam in particular takes a backseat, as does RTP itself, unless it's 3 hours plus. But note, these issues don't need a major change in the concert pattern.

4) A personal gripe after hearing many a standard pattern concert is that things can get far too cliche. I know exactly what to expect with the varnam, what comes next, what will be in the alapana, where the brighas will be, where the neraval will be, how many rounds it will be, what they will do in the swaras, often what korvai will be sung, even what the percussion will play. And of course the mangalam. Only after covering all these bases do I see something that was really different or original.
And I am in whole-hearted agreement with these points!!

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

Read my updated post. I added a few more points.

rshankar
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by rshankar »

If all forms of sRngAra have to eschewed, then most if not all tAna varNams (including the famous viribOni sung by many, including Smts. MSS, DKP, and MLV among others) have to be eliminated from CM fare. :x

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

#123
Ananthakrishna wrote: 23 Mar 2021, 21:05 1. Manodharmam for the varnam-
Typical paddhati: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZEz0cqRtVQ
Surely you must have heard the young prime MSS bellowing out viribhoni and it will have fit into any format like a charm! :lol: Sareera felicity at various points in life would influence the way they sing.

At some point people were trained for concerts. Then patterns followed before will influence the next gen. It all goes back to the way patronage is done and how much confident the musician community feels to build personal convictions. By the 70s, even the doyens would not venture much at all.

Lot of polished music still ensued. KVN, Ramnad, DKJ, S Kalyanaraman , Nedunuri et. al. Even today any concert posted does not bore me. That is not true of 90(s) generation! And I am a serious listener to anybody other than TNS only since 2000 or so and the older musicians only through tapes.

Smt T. Mukta sang only compositions in her concerts - was that any lack of manodharma? And would it fit into any paddhati?

None of the points you made convinces me that some paddhati held them back! Only some external factors! Blame can be only on rasikas and their approach to music.

And you also make the assumption that some dwelt, stretched note is some extra music/aesthetic! It is true in certain context where the music has been worked on like padams. Rest of places it is artificial and wasteful!

Easy to pick MDR as an example. His concert uptake is absolutely in essence an ARI concert paddhati. After that he could do sometimes what he needed to , because he didn't have much listeners to worry about. His type of jaaru and the way he had conviction from saadhakam is what made his music. Format did not hold him back - yet he did adopt it in essence. If others did not develop that, it is mostly rasikas to blame , for we did not create the eco-system. That is why you have one loner, who breaks out.

Look even TMK did not ask these questions until people were running out of parking lots in MA ( around 2011). Yeah you needed to know someone to get one there too apparently! And as he alleges, power brokers were placing some NRI news clippers into Sabha slots. That was a deluge after a shortage and celebrity culture and a wrong type of eco-system. No capacity had been built organically. No culture has been set! It is like everybody suddenly became aware of tirunelveli iruTTu kaDai halva.

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

God! What a fuss! As a person born in deep south of Tamilnadu, in 1942, I got exposed to the music of MS, DKP and NCV due to my family environment right from 1945.
Stay at Madras for higher studies was in 1957 to 1964 only. My place of residence was very near Kapaleeswarar temple and Maadhava perumal temples and all my uncles, aunts, cousins were musically trained not for performing in concerts. So, I had ample opportunity to listen and learn.
In those years, there was no internet nor TV. We were not all that particular about attending concerts in sabhas. Our only source of music was the Radio and gramophone .
This was true for thousands and thousands of rasikas of CM in places living outside Madras. That was very good because, we were spared the 'visual' venality.
Music is meant to be heard , What is there to be seen' ?
After completing my studies, I had to move out of the city. and as an industrial worker, my working hours were from 6 am to pm. This is true even today for the youngsters in professions in Engg. even in software field.
The only 'concert' that I attended sometime in 1964 was by Ali Akbar Khan in music academy. He played Keerwani which sounded much more moving than the CM counterpart.
In the late evenings, it was a family routine for my aunt and cousins to sing kruthis/keerthans of pristine CM
Concerts were through the Radio only.
and the duration hardly exceeded two hours.
Were not those decades of Greats like Chembai, ARI,,MVI, Musiri, chemmangudi, MMI and Aalathoor? It struck me that they did not assume to don the role of musicologist and composer. I am leaving out scores of other vocalists and instrumentalists in VeeNa, Violin and Nagaswaram. Temple concerts gave lot of time and scope for the individuality in presentation
So, what is so great about your pre-occupation with sabha concerts? which by their very nature rule out non-residents of Madras?
It was only in 1990, that TV was made avaiable and still later the web.
Now that high speed web has become available, who prevents the music-snob-sensation lists from getting their single-raga elaboration for hours together ( as Thyagaraja Swami is said to have performed in Kovoor) , getting it recorded in casettes and spreading their missionary work of saving the pure CM of their conception?
Even the present-day concert performers are doing that. with copy-right restrictions.
So much for their dedication for the 'art' of music. ..Money !
The only difference is that they want to cater to the neo-rich diaspora and join the privileged parvenu.
In what way , video-visuals of concert performance nhances the value of the concert? Stage presence? The doyens of olden time had Dignity. "Gouravam'. The entire idea of Kutchery stuff in sabhas is rubbish. It has nothing to do with Music as such.
Good thing that Internet technology will kill the CM sabha culture for ever in just 10 years from now. That would be great and save CM of the Trinity being swamped by Dance music gang

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

rshankar wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 02:03 If all forms of sRngAra have to eschewed, then most if not all tAna varNams (including the famous viribOni sung by many, including Smts. MSS, DKP, and MLV among others) have to be eliminated from CM fare. :x
I looked up some translations since you said it. I suppose "sAmi ninnE kOri" (Lord, I want you alone) is embarassing, lustful, scandalous and sinful and worthy of condemning to hell. Chiru navvu (bhairavi varnan) means "With a smiling face". THIS is the great, dreaded, controversial, shringara rasa of dance music? :o

There is more shringara in Tom and Jerry than some of these compositions. :mrgreen: :lol:

But on the one hand, this is a taboo that some people are paranoid about, and on the other hand, India will soon become the world's most populated nation in a very short time. If even "Lord, I want you alone" is too extreme, just HOW did we get here ? :lol:

The original sin -- is ignorance. :twisted:

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 09:38 In what way , video-visuals of concert performance nhances the value of the concert? Stage presence? The doyens of olden time had Dignity. "Gouravam'. The entire idea of Kutchery stuff in sabhas is rubbish. It has nothing to do with Music as such.
Good thing that Internet technology will kill the CM sabha culture for ever in just 10 years from now. That would be great and save CM of the Trinity being swamped by Dance music gang
This same tech has also made us know that there are plenty of devil's advocates out there speaking all kinds of blasphemies and even untruths exposing their crooked egos and narrow mindedness in the name of puritanism. Let's not blow that "holier than thou" trumpet at every opportunity. You are you and we are we, and nothing can change that.

Music makes friends and opinions make enemies. We are all United by love but totally divided by opinion. And sometimes there is no sensitivity even in expressing them.

So shall we please change the topic to some good music that makes us talk less and listen more? Or else at this rate you will make enemies with every person in the entire world. And I honestly wouldn't be surprised at all if you've indeed made very many.
Last edited by SrinathK on 25 Mar 2021, 10:10, edited 3 times in total.

sureshvv
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sureshvv »

RSR wrote: 24 Mar 2021, 09:38 Music is meant to be heard , What is there to be seen' ?
The "seeing" part is as much for the vidwan as it if for the rasika. Much synergy results from this interaction. You should try it sometime :D

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-131 and p-132
--------------
@SrinathK
'IGNORANCE IS SIN"
NO. IT IS NOT.
POMPOUS NONSENSE IS.
==================
There is a bairavi varnam in thamizh translated into English by
@rshankar Google for it and find out. . The famous bairavi varnam sung by Smt.MS has just two or three lines.
and the third line simply mentions Rajagopalaswami of Lalgudi.
To the best of my knowledge Thyagaraja Swami never gave us any composition in the 'varnam' genre.
Nor MD.
-----SS gave a few but they were thaana varnams only.
How is it that this craze begins with Patnam Subramanya Iyer? and his disciples?
Let us avoid 'discourses'. and focus more on sharing links of good songs in public domain
I am doing that already and I believe , the response is good.

Decorum is not 'inhibition'.. The very essence of civilization is suppression of Eros. be it as reflected in sartorial habits and everything in life. Good cultural values are more a habit than born out of 'free thinking'. and flouting of good traditions.

Medicos will know the meaning and effect of front-lobe dementia and its consequences in the behavior of such patients. Tragic. .

CRama
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by CRama »

Very long posts put forth by Ananthakrishna, Srinath and Shankarank. The reasons behind the adherence to the padhati put forth by Srinath is convincing. My few cents.

The lament about the restriction of the padhati on the manodharmam of the artiste has been spread by the TMK and supported by his ardent fans for the last 10 years. Before that, TMK also sang in this format only. No lament by any other vidwan till that time that they are restricted by the format of the concert. Nor spread by highly knowledgeable sangita rasikas of that period about the unsuitability of the format till TMK started his campaign.

Generally all the musicians follow this format and achieve high levels of popularity till now. Can you say all the musicians are not that intelligent to stick to a defective format.

My observation is all musicians had intelligence and musical acumen to infuse their own deviations within the overall format and that have been lauded by the rasikas. Nobody criticised them. I will give some examples.

A great criticism is here for the so called filler songs. You say they lack in the proper manodharmam element. Srinath has said why those songs have been included. But I can quote many instances where the filler songs have been dealt with suitable manodharam elements.

Kritis like Nijamarmulanu and Sarasamukhi were treated by many senior musicians like fillers. (I don’t know whether any previous gen musician sang those kritis). But Madurai Mani Iyer sang alapanas and swarams for many rare ragams like this and showed that much more can be done on this songs rather than just singing the kritis. GNB is famous for giving an exalted status for rare ragams like Chenjukambodi, Kiranavali and Malavi. He just did not sing the kritis alone.

Manavyalakinchara in Nalinakanthi- This also was sung as filler song in the last generation. But listen to TRS or KVN who have invested lot of manodharmam in the songs with alapanas or swaraprastarams and enhanced our listening pleasure.

I just heard a Ariyakudi concert where he had sung detailed keezh kala swarams for Varanarada. This song is generally considered a fast filler. Nedunuri has sung detailed alapana and swarams for Sogasujooda tarama, which is sung as a filler by many other musicians.

As I am writing this, I am hearing Thrissur Ramachandran singing elaborate swarams for Malavi- lifting it from a short filler status.

But their musical and aesthetic senses will tell them to present Annapurne Visalakshi in its purest form without adding alapana or swarams.
As Srinath told, many rasikas would die for pure Annapurne Visalakshi or pure Amba Neelayadakshi.

Ariyakudi padhati says to start the concert with a varnam. But Semmangudi and GNB- diehard admirers of Ariyakudi started many concerts with kritis and it got accepted by everybody. Madurai Mani Iyer skipped varnam in most of the concerts and also by his disciple TVS. Don’t blame the format for that.

Varnam by TNK for 20 minutes. As I told, within the format, musicians do give surprises. In a concert of RKM in Music Academy two years ago, he sang the Viriboni Varnam with the anubandham which took more than 25 minutes. That does not mean that he should sing Ninnukori vrnam for 20 minutes following MDR.

If Brovavamma has been sung by MDR for twenty minutes as against a heart whelming rendering by KVN for 7 minutes, MDR has specialised in the chauka kala exploration of the entire concert and you can not expect every one to sing like MDR. What shortcoming you have observed in KVN’s rendering of Varugalamo.

The musical sensitivities of the musicians prop up in between during a concert to produce something unexpected and extraordinary. There is one Chembai concert where he goes on to sing all heavy weight kritis like Sarojadalanetri and many such songs without kalpana swarams. Then after the thani, he takes up a tillana in Jonpuri and sings kalpanaswarams for it. He also followed Ariyakudi padhati only.

You can not expect all the songs to be having elaborate alapanas and neravals or kalpana swarams. You should consider the energy levels of the musicians and also the receptivity level of the audience.

Tanam. Primarily will be sung only in RTPs. But there are many concerts of Semmangudi and MS Subbalakshmi where they had sung tanam for the main kriti. I had read in many articles that tanam by MS had received much adulation from other musicians of the period. Semmangudi has started one concert with tanam in Nata followed by Mahaganapathim. There are two concerts of Omanakutty, where she had rendered elaborate tanam before the main kritis- one Anjaneya in Saveri and another Rama nee samanamevaru.

Neraval. This has been a casualty in today’s concerts mainly due to shortage of time. The present trend is to have a neraval for any song and skip the neraval for the main song. But there had been authentic neraval in the concerts of all the senior musicians- for two or three songs. The clip of Semmangudi you have shown is a short duration concert and hence short neraval. IN some MS concerts of 60s, neraval is there for 4 songs. KVN has earned a distinction for his inspiring neravals.
You would have heard the neraval of Alathur Brothers for the song Enduku nirdaya. Mind boggling. But don’t compare with the high voltage neraval of TMK. That pattern of neraval is a recent origin aimed at scoring thundering applause. And every musician do not have his breadth control or stamina.

Fixed line for neravals. Everybody followed the lineage of their gurus. Rasikas also have got some favourite lines. If somebody takes up any line other than Bhooloka vaikuntam, the rasikas will be disappointed. The musician is singing for the rasikas only. So they will follow suit. Now musicians take any line or combine meaningful phrases within a song for the neraval. Some people take up neraval in pallavi which is not always very pleasing or aesthetic.

Padam. It is sung only by some musicians. If some musicians do not sing padam you cannot discount their musical acumen. That has nothing to do with the format of Ariyakudi. TRS presented the Saveri padam Telisenura in one of his concert in the middle with elaborate neraval and swarams. Such surprises also occur once in a blue moon only. Sanjay used to sing the padam Parengum parthalum in Kalyani in the first half of the concert.

Thillana. I attended a lec dem by Prema Rengarajan where she presented very rare and long tillanas. I asked her why such tillanas are not sung in concerts. She said when we start the thillana, people stand up and get ready to leave. How can we present elaborate tillanas. Rasikas also should be responsive.

More than the format, the following are the deciding factors.
Duration of the concert
Venue
Voice Condition of the musician on that particular day
Pakkavadyams.
His assessment of the rasikas.
The appreciation of the rasikas.

CRama
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by CRama »

Shreyes has expressed his resent for insisting of Ganapathy kritis in the beginning of the concert. Every body knows that when we do some auspicious thing in our home, we start with a prayer to Ganapathy. Musicians like MLV, Ariyakudi, KVN, TNS etc have sung Sidhivinayakam as the third or fourth song in the concerts with detailed alapana, neraval and swarams. GNB has sung Karikalabhamukham and Ekadantham in the middle of the concert. MS has sung Mahaganapathim Vande as the main song. Most of the Alathur Bros concerts I have do not have any song on Ganapathy. TNS has composed a tillana in Basant on Ganapahy that he sings all Vinayaka Chaturthi concerts as the last song.

I reiterate that the format is very flexible that accommodates the manodharmam of the musician.

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

@CRama Now that you said that, that was one point I forgot to mention in point #6 in favour of concert planning, and it's that it is indeed far more flexible than it is made out to be.

You can, if you wish, sing the same vAtApi ganapatim in 3 min as a filler song or 1 hour with the full "works" if you have the stuff.

There is no need for any song to remain typecast on one particular role. For e.g. sri mangalambikAyam in ghaNTA (Dikshitar) can be sung as purely a kriti, or as a main number or even as a mangaLam (Dikshitar special) all dependent on the handling.

Tiruppugazh, tiruppavai, thiruvempavai have been openers, main items and closing numbers. TNS has started many concerts with meenAkshi mE mudam dehi, starting with alapana and shlokam.

It is then dependent on the audience to be able to swallow up all the music.

I attended a lec dem by Smt. Jayanti Kumaresh (I think you were also there) where she mentioned
about how her guru Veena Balachander has played a 3 hour concert with only, ONLY navaragamalika varnam. Varnams are always the main item of a dance performance.

One reason why a slow padam follows a varnam is to let a dancer relax and recover physically from the exertion that a varnam demands. So from that angle it is logical.

So while it is possible for a concert to get stuck in one particular pattern of presentation, we have always had the flexibility to plan in many other ways, so it's not a new thing. It's only when this issue became a major debate point as you said, that it gained notriety.

Also concerts have started with a geetam at times. Some geetams are almost like kritis themselves that they can be filler or even sub main items (like SS's geetam in paras). And one can in fact end with a geetam, that too on ganapati (Dikshitar nottuswaram).

It is also possible to end with a tani avartanam to come thundering down with a grand finale. Or even with a pancharatnam as the Annual Thyagaraja aradhana shows. Or one can simply end with a viruttam / shloka for a very tranquil ending to a concert. But we all need to go with the feeling that regardless of how it is done, the concert was satisfactorily concluded. That "feel" matters.

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

TNS has sung "lambOdara lagumikara" Pallavi as well in triSram with CSM accompanying.

The Dayton concert of TMK, I listened to in person where TMK 1.0 had sung in a different way the same. The recording is just out in public domain. Yet to hear it fully. But I know it is there. After the concert few young rasikas clarified the setting by trying to sing it to the artistes, Sri Bhaktavatsalam, included.

So Vinayakar is there until the end, almost, in various concerts :D

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

#130 @RSR. Your post exposes the economic equivalent of stockholm syndrome, present among your generation. A looted society is made to think, Money is bad. And they can't distinguish between responsible economics from greed and avarice!

AIR may have not had any other content to broadcast beyond the movie songs and this music during your times. Things changed very much and programs were short. Mostly we would be in school or asleep for the national programme of Carnatic music. Advertisement revenue has started influencing their choices.

Yeah, just turn them all to AIR and better still as MNREGA dole recipients lining up in front of the tahsil - as is being suggested by TMK! Thyagaraja's kasicedde will become ever more true!

It will be a Soviet Union of India , with the state assuming all things. We will get a Vadya Vrinda as innovation, the true Soviet nirvana product! Instead of interval aesthetics that I am after , or zoomed in gamaka that everybody is after here! See how Music is a full knowledge system. It unravels everything top down on every aspect of human life!

AIR has moved on! Only the sabha karyakartas , for all their flaws still provide the core. Music will reach everybody. But the core needs to emit the energy.

I will get a Jesudas Tarangini cassette , other than the lone MSS UN concert abridged recording only because concerts happen! And all of them prepared me to seek concerts later on.

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-139
@shankarank
As usual , you take the cake for fatuous b-school stuff.
You must have been born just when the best was leaving the stage.-1970. It had a flicker for 2 decades more as a pale dying ember and finally went out in 1990. The rest is darkness.
I bet , you have never read any book on History, ancient or modern. Atleast , read about American History, your ' new found mother- land.'
Read about FDR. Read the columns in NYTimes and Washington post.
State control in Nazi Germany and about Richard Wagner. and do not use this forum for filthy fascist fumes .

Nick H
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Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 02:03

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Nick H »

RSR wrote: 18 Mar 2021, 08:57 I have said enough.
Apparently not.

Notwithstanding some of the less reasonable points of view here and there, this has been one of the most interesting conversations I've read on rasikas.org for a long time. Thanks to all :)

Ananthakrishna
Posts: 130
Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:38

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

I have had the opportunity to read and go through the several points made by @SrinathK and @CRama. Extremely valid points have been put forward, some of which certainly had me reconsidering some of my stands on this issue, especially the points made regarding how rasikas ought to derive beauty even from unembellished, non-elaborate renditions.

I don't think I am fully convinced of the efficacy and necessity of the current kutcheri format yet, but I can say that I am re-evaluating some of my positions on this issue.

I've noticed that many points were however also from the standpoint of the audience, i.e. points which basically argued that the concert paddhati is tailored to the needs and sensibilites of the audiences. This raised a few questions in my mind.

1)What is a kutcheri meant for? Is a kutcheri just about an artiste regaling the audience with the music, or is it about the artiste and audience together exploring and appreciating the music?

2)Is the artiste there to entertain the audience, or just express himself/herself through the art?

3) Should a concert format be tailored to suit the expectations and musical tastes of the audience listening to it, or the artiste presenting it?

I confess I have found no answers to these questions myself. I hope I can perhaps learn more from your responses.


Slightly irrelevant personal note-

Over the course of this conversation, I could understand how my perception on things is not the same as that of many other rasikas. I do hope that I have not offended or hurt anybody when I was (rather vigorously) expressing my opinions. If I have inadvertently offended anyone, I sincerely and unconditionally apologize.
Also, I do sincerely request, that all of us, stick to a healthy musical discussion. A few recent posts were irrelevant, and also detracting from the essence of the discussion. Let us all discuss amicably, the music that binds us all. We may have differences in opinion, but we needn't express them in an antagonistic manner!

Ananthakrishna
Posts: 130
Joined: 01 Nov 2019, 17:38

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by Ananthakrishna »

@Nick H, I do agree! This has been a most stimulating and interesting thread!

SrinathK
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by SrinathK »

How can you learn to swim without getting in the pool? Thinking however will not answer a question this deep. The answers to questions like these comes from experience and it is never static or theoretical, but living and ever dynamic.

Unless you want to be Swami Haridas, for whom. Audiences never really existed.

If you want to know a noob's perspective on performing, let me tell you what was on my mind. With my extremely limited experience playing on stage (not proud of the results), I was basically battling nerves, just trying to stay afloat and not botch it. :lol: :lol:

shankarank
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 25 Mar 2021, 19:32 3) Should a concert format be tailored to suit the expectations and musical tastes of the audience listening to it, or the artiste presenting it?
Where do the tastes come from? When SSI was reviewed by Kalki, he made a point that everybody knows what is music only after he showed what it is by performing! So how do people develop tastes? How do critics develop opinions? There is nothing innate about it, or nothing apriori, in this case!!

They will show new ways , if overall they are well endowed and supported! We keep also asking for open minded rasikas. There is no such thing in general. The rasikas most informed , must make best decisions for best outcomes. They must seek information, spend the time, knowing about the music and musicians ( not the music and musicians themselves ;) - that happens a lot looks like)!

Whatever else happening elsewhere in other far flung places, the entire responsibility lies with rasikas close to where all the leading musicians live and perform. In the pockets of Chennai and Bangalore.

sankark
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by sankark »

Ananthakrishna wrote: 25 Mar 2021, 19:32 1)What is a kutcheri meant for? Is a kutcheri just about an artiste regaling the audience with the music, or is it about the artiste and audience together exploring and appreciating the music?

2)Is the artiste there to entertain the audience, or just express himself/herself through the art?

3) Should a concert format be tailored to suit the expectations and musical tastes of the audience listening to it, or the artiste presenting it?

I confess I have found no answers to these questions myself. I hope I can perhaps learn more from your responses.
Turn it around to ask it thus: If an artiste/musician wants to explore music to her extent possible & to ones heartfelt contendedness, why even an arranged concert - be it paid for by the audience or a free lunch for audience but someone else bears the cost. The artiste(s)/musician(s) could do it at their whim at any convenient place, without being a nuisance to others in the earshot. A la Karaikudi Sambasiva Iyer (refer to the MLV thread).

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

The sponsors of the concert should offer incentives and even a basic listening fee to connoisseurs. Carnatic listening is hard work and needs to be remunerated!

P:S - It is definitely more work than standing in the voting lines! Well jokes apart, seriously, that is required. This is a specialty occupation! We could device a rasika certification course and exam - to make it all objective! Finally a rasika license!

RSR
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Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-142
" what are kutcherys meant for?
=========
Concert hall kutcherys are meant for making money. either for the artiste or for the organizers.
The money thus earned was spent for great philanthropic projects. Barring very few, it is purely a profession now.
Temple concerts are exceptions but film music has gate-crashed there also. and the 'Rational-Permissive-pseudo-radical' 'theme-can-be-anything 'crowd, has encroached there also, be it in Thamizh Naadu or in USA. CM nowadays is just a status-symbol. and elitist. entertainment. , in no way different from other forms of entertainent industry. devoid of the devotional core . ' What is life without Dance- Record dance or its 'classical equivalent? Shall we not have at least some titillating amorous lines - ostensibly on the Deity? , Better be it in Telugu or Urdu even and Sanskrit ? so that the audience does not understand the meaning and enjoys the beats and tunes only. Are we not listening to Hindi film music? "
====
So runs the argument and 'mission' of the anti-puritan post-Cromwell army
.
But, if we carefully go through the meaning of compositions of the Trinity, - there are nearly 1200 of them, I can assert even without any research, ( I rely with respect, on the 'research' from palm-leaves already done by great-great scholars ) that unlike their predecessors and disciples. they never composed any 'srungara' padams.
Anubandhams were added by dancers., to taana varnams.
.
Once again, Rest assured that in exactly ten years, the Web will make sabha music totally obsolete . When someone reads this thread by 2031 , he would wonder what the guys were fighting about. and move away. ( if at all this forum survives till then and is archived)

shankarank
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Joined: 15 Jun 2009, 07:16

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by shankarank »

#P140 @RSR - Mine is not a B-school talking point material. As Indians we have all directly experienced bureaucracy and don't need some external fodder to think. Secondly , I am also privy to discussions with real life Jewish people who have ancestry that escaped from eastern Europe. And all your adjectives are really a violence to use against anybody of Indian origin. Those history and categories are not applicable to any colonized people or their descendants. Let the Euro-centrists reflect on their own history, I don't have any use knowing it. We have our own experience and we don't need any imported knowledge feed, as regards history or sociology. News media and thinkers in India should boycott all such terms fed from Euro-centrism.

And I used Soviet as a figurative, not literally. But since you brought it up, I will cite an instance (sthAli pulaka) or oru paanai sOTrukku oru sOru padam. Lev Landau (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lev_Landau) was arrested for just a possession of a leaflet. A fine physicist , he had a word of advice for scientists - not to work towards any prize, as nothing would come off of it! Sort of relevant to musicians too!

While America welcomed Einstein! I have come to appreciate the anti-intellectual streak in America. Not take intellectual sophistry at face value. But I like : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexis_de_Tocqueville

RSR
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Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: Unto what extent do the confines of 'tradition' reign?

Post by RSR »

p-149
-----
I read the book 'Democracy in America' long, long back Useless Gibberish..... And the reference to Stockholm Syndrome' is irrelevant
You lack an integral world-view. .
At least for the great language, I would strongly suggest the 4 classics by Harold Laski. ( ;Liberty in the Modern State', 'State in theory and practice', 'Dilemma of our times', and 'Reflections on the revolutions of our times').
It is never possible to get intellectual work in science and technology by compulsion and terror. So too with real classical music.
Democracy cannot make everyone an Einstein. or MD but it can definitely make every student capable of understanding great works.

Sometimes, we get great contributions from quite unexpected quarters. The supposed intellectual superiority of any particular group is a myth. There never was a level playing field.
This has much relevance to teaching the basics of CM to all the students from primary school itself. The result will be seen after some 15 years. This is a political question. and cannot be discussed in this forum for CM. .

Locked