Thoughts on Thaats

Classical Music of North India
Vayoo Flute
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Joined: 15 Jan 2018, 00:53

Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 16:20 Went through this pdf last night and found it to be very good.

abstract
comaparative study of hindustani and carnatic ragas
https://www.google.co.in/url?sa=t&rct=j ... -2ypa9DFTE
Quite frankly, I did not find anything new in the abstract. There is also much to be desired in the English - some parts were quite confusing and disjointed. Perhaps the original was in Hindi or some other language and this abstract is only a translation.

The article describes the Hindustani system as based on 12 swaras and the Carnatic on 16 swaras. I think this is misleading. Carnatic classification is also based on 12 swaras but offers more permutations and combinations. It is not as if the octave is divided into 16 notes.

Regarding the Muslim influence, let us not try to be politically correct here. True, new instruments and new melodies were brought in and enriched Hindustani music. Let us also not forget the massive suppression of musical evolvement that took place as a result of the destruction of most of the temples, which served as centers of cultural meetings and exchanges of ideas. South India, which was largely spared of these atrocities, saw its classical music evolve by leaps and bounds during the same period.

Another major deficiency in this research is that it fails to mention the role of compositions. The elaborate and intricate work of the great Carnatic composers had a profound impact on the evolution of Carnatic music.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@51-> Respected VF Sir, Your comment does not refer to the PDF. Just now re-read again. Please do. It is a 300 page R&D paper with profuse references. I cannot say that I have assimilated everything in this abstract. It is huge but enlightening. I intend taking a print out and use it for comparative study of CM and HM. or rather study of CM from HM perspective.. The abstract does give good references to CM composers at later part of the work. As a devout follower of Smt MSS, not only in her music but in her values as well, I cannot share your views on HM. Excuse me.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Shree RSRji: I confess I only read the abstract and my comments are restricted to only that. When I have more time I will read the full paper. The abstract does not mention any of the things I critiqued as missing, such as the influence of the composers, which could very well be in the full document. I did not realize that you were the author of the abstract, and I do apologize for roughing up any feathers.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@53-> Sri.VF wrote
I did not realize that you were the author of the abstract, and I do apologize for roughing up any feathers.
--------------------------
Respected VF Sir,
How I wish that I had the scholarly equipment even to attempt such an abstract!. No, Sir. I am just quoting .
------------------------ The chapters are from the thesis as placed in web by ShodhGanga. in PDF form. ........When we google for some topics, we get these pdf docs . ( on classical music, history, socio-political events of the past,,,which I have downloaded and read occasionally.) Being in pdf format, it is not esay to share except by way of links. ...hence inevitably fragmentary. Hence, the wrong impressions....
I would very much like to quote a few lines about 'ShodhGanga' institution.
=======================================================================
"Shodhganga: a reservoir of Indian Theses

"Shodhganga" is the name coined to denote digital repository of Indian Electronic Theses and Dissertations set-up by the INFLIBNET Centre. The word "Shodh" originates from Sanskrit and stands for research and discovery. The "Ganga" is the holiest, largest and longest of all rivers in Indian subcontinent. The Ganga is the symbol of India's age-long culture and civilization, everchanging, ever-flowing, ever-loved and revered by its people, and has held India's heart captive and drawn uncounted millions to her banks since the dawn of history. Shodhganga stands for the reservoir of Indian intellectual output stored in a repository hosted and maintained by the INFLIBNET Centre.

The Shodhganga@INFLIBNET is set-up using an open source digital repository software called DSpace developed by MIT (Massachusetts Institute of Technology) in partnership between Hewlett- Packard (HP). The DSpace uses internationally recognized protocols and interoperability standards. Shodhganga provides a platform for research scholars to deposit their Ph.D. theses and make it available to the entire scholarly community in open access. The repository has the ability to capture, index, store, disseminate and preserve ETDs (Electronic Theses and Dissertations) submitted by the researchers.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/
===========================================================================================
It is a huge repository. I do not think, they give the author's names for the documents. May be I have to explore.
I am downloading in parts and reading them when time permits.
The book under discussion is very fair. and informative. Could surely be improved by more precise notation. About that in another post soon.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Shri RSR, thank you for introducing me to the shodhganga sites. I will surely look into them as time permits.

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 06:02 Ever wondered why mayamalagowlam is used for beginning lessons?

My thesis is as follows:

Sa and Pa are automatic. Our ears like to hear frequencies that are simple fractions when relating one note to another. To the base Sa, Pa is of course 3/2. Next simple fraction is 4/3. That is our suddha ma. Next is 5/4. This is antara Ga. Apart from Sa and Pa, the tambura/ shruti box coordinates very well with this Ga and Ma precisely because of this reason. For beginning students, it is easier to take notes that are only a half-note distant from the main resting notes, Sa and Pa. The Ri and Ni are stretches from the Sa, up and down respectively. These notes are invariably played as jaaru or kampitam starting from Sa. The Da is played in similar fashion from Pa. Chatusrati Ri or Da, being further away from the resting notes, are more likely to suffer from inaccuracies by the beginning student. Thus you have Mela 15.
S, G3, M1, P is right on.

But about Ri and Da, I am not really sure that the choice of MMG is because it is easier for the students.

I have two anecdotes. In my own case, when learning the flute, it is difficult as such to get a good tone consistently and opening the hole half way was an added burden. My Guru asked me to practice with HK swarasthanas first. Then we moved on to MMG. OK, that is with instruments but what about vocal? Smt. Vedavalli in her humorous way talks about how beginning students can't sing R1 properly when sung as part of a sequence of swaras, especially in Avarohanam. They will either sing it as S or some where close to R2 when corrected. The issue is, in Avarohanam, the gap between G3 to R1 is quite large and when jumping over such a gap, they overshoot or undershoot.

Thodi, MMG, KHP and SB all have the nice property that the lower and upper tetrachord are symmetric. ( the S-M, P-S symmetry ). So they all qualify on that ground as potential choices for beginners. Thodi may be too complicated for beginners. That leaves SB and KHP. SB is a natural scale universally and that is a much better choice IMHO. So for scale based practices, I think the order for beginners can be SB, KHP and then MMG and then one can move on to the wonderful gitams in Malahari.

But I do grant that, while the danger of going off the rails is high, a bunch of students singing together the Varisais in MMG correctly sound great to the ears.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

Yes, that is the standard way the flute is taught to beginners.

I have a different opinion on this. If a student practices all the initial exercises first in HK, his hands and fingers will be positioned to facilitate the complete opening and closing of the tone holes. He may then have difficulty in adjusting his set ways to accommodate partial closures. As we know, the position of the tone hole is only a guide to producing the right shruti. So many more factors are involved: strength of blowing, angle of attack, how hard you press the blow hole on the lips, etc. The student should learn to treat the flute as a continuous instrument, much like a violin. This will make the initial lessons more difficult but a more solid foundation will be laid. It will also make the student more shruti conscious and he will be less dependent on the accuracy of the tone hole placement. This is very important for an imperfect instrument like the flute (invariably, the adjustments that are needed for the higher octave notes will be different to the adjustments for the lower octave notes).

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

It is always easier to learn the basics of CM through a VeeNa. because of the arrangement of the frets.
---
http://www.carnaticdarbar.com/views_01.htm
Reverting back to HM Thaats, I found this blog interesting. though in a direction opposite to mine. I feel that excluding the vivadi scales (40 in number) , we are left with 32 only. as sampoorna ragams. The lines that I found particularly to my liking ..." It will also be evident that even out of the 40 Vivadi ragas only a dozen or so have popular kritis in them. ". So, why not limit the CM scales to say around 18, ( which 18?.. by examining the sweetness of the ragams already existing in them).. and adopt uniform method of notation? .

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

RSR wrote: 28 Feb 2018, 22:58 It is always easier to learn the basics of CM through a VeeNa. because of the arrangement of the frets.
---
http://www.carnaticdarbar.com/views_01.htm
Reverting back to HM Thaats, I found this blog interesting. though in a direction opposite to mine. I feel that excluding the vivadi scales (40 in number) , we are left with 32 only. as sampoorna ragams. The lines that I found particularly to my liking ..." It will also be evident that even out of the 40 Vivadi ragas only a dozen or so have popular kritis in them. ". So, why not limit the CM scales to say around 18, ( which 18?.. by examining the sweetness of the ragams already existing in them).. and adopt uniform method of notation? .
Shri RSR:

Let us remember our school chemistry and what happened in the classification of elements. Mendeleev, around the middle of the 19th century, came up with a classification scheme of elements based on the then known elements. The classification scheme had a lot of holes, that is, elements suspected of existing but not yet discovered but with predictable properties. Mendeleev's list accelerated the search for new elements which, as predicted, were found. I view the 17th century melakarta scheme in a similar way. The scheme encouraged composers to compose on ragas and scales not hitherto tried. There are still plenty of opportunities to further explore rarely sung scales. Your "sweetness" is relative to the times it is applied to. A scale may not sound sweet to you today, but if sufficient compositions are developed and made popular by creative musicians,it will start sounding sweet to you.

So why limit the 72 scales? Often, theory precedes practice (as in the case of the Periodic Table). In fact why not expand to a 108 melakarta scheme in which the last 36 omit the panchamam but has both madhayamams. This will enable better classification of certain ragas that take the two MAs.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 20 Feb 2018, 13:53
Vayoo Flute » 20 Feb 2018, 05:59
As long as notations are simple to understood and accepted by most, any notation set would do. If you want to use the HM notation, then ragas like kaNakAngi or rasikapriya can be problematic since you would have two "r"s and two "d"s or two "g"s and two "n"s.
Respected Sir, ..why any confusion? They will be written as R1,R2 , G1,G2 etc .though it 'violates' that a sampoorna rahgam should not have two R's etc in seccession.
The premise of the melakartas is not as complicated as what you describe. It is much simpler, and flawless, avoiding any confusion. The premise of the sampoorna raga is that all seven swaras are to be present, and given a ri, ga should be a higher tone and given a dha, ni should be higher. So in that air-tight logic, r1, r2 or g1,g2 would be impossible.

Using hm notation is not preferred not only because the katapayadi nomenclature and numbering system is easier in detailed discussions of CM, but also because having multiple ri and ga as you describe will make writing and reading notations impossibly hard, and not worth the trouble, slowing down the music in the learning stages (of a kriti) with absolutely no benefit. The logic does not make music better, but streamlines communication and learning, which IS a great benefit. To a certain extent, it does mKe the music better, as it offers the possibility of using or circumventing dissonance within a raga.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

I came to this thread to find an answer to a question about thaats that I asked in another thread here.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=30873&p=331641#p331625

I was reading this thread in its initial days, but it has grown so much!! I did not find the answer in any of the shodhganga links here, but more googling using new terms gleaned from one of these shodhganga PDFs gave me a link to a different shodhganga PDF that answered my question.

This is the answer I found (the emphasis by underlining is mine):
(...) a Thaat in Hindustani music cannot be sung, it only show the scale. The raag swarup and swar vistaar in a raag is explored through an Ashray raag (Ahsray raagas are born out of Thaatas, the janya raagas which are named after their Thaat are called Ashray ragas, Eg: S R G M P D N S indicates that it belongs to Bhairav Thaat. This BhairavThaat gives birth to raag Bhairav which has similar swara.)

Where as Carnatic Melakartas can be sung. There are many Kritis and Keertanas in Melakarta raagas.
So it seems Bilawal is a conceptual entity as a thaat and Bilawal raag belongs to this thaat and can be sung and explored. Going by what I found of Asavari thaat and the Asavari raag, the Ashray raag does not necessarily have the all the swaras of its thaat scale, but may also just have a subset of the thaat's swaras.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 13 Mar 2018, 12:06, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

PS: 😊Love the certainly intended pun in the topic of this thread! Does one have to be at least a Kannada lover to catch it?

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki
» 13 Mar 2018, 10:58
@60-> Ranganayaki-> I am not a total stranger to orthodox CM. My mother and all my aunts played VeeNa, not for stage concert but at home. All my eleven cousin sisters were trained in CM and were very good vocalists. Again, not for concert...Though I had no formal training, I had exposure to orthodox CM due to family environment. Later I learned to play an HM bow instrument with frets fairly well, just for personal experience and experimentation. Could not pursue it due to other pressing ,professional preoccupations . I have read the usual texts on music by Prof.Sambamurtyhy and SubbaRao. ----- I am a devout fan of Smt.MS, Smt.DKP and Smt.NCV. .. I have created websites for their immortal songs. . My stand is that
a) we can give the arohanam and avarohanam of all CM ragams in the same pattern as done by HM. ( S r R g G m M P d D n N S'). Nothing is lost and it makes understanding the notation easier. HM does not have gamakam, true, but , none the less captivating and mellifluous.
b) I hold that the songs rendered by the above mentioned vocalists are so wonderful, because most of them are in the 10 scales common to CM and HM.
I find that attaching a janya ragam to this or that janaka ragam is a bit arbitrary and not really necessary. ( I have a famous fusion instrumentalist who has the same view). Each ragam has its own soul and it cannot be really captured and passed on by giving the ascending and descending notes.
I am now preparing a list of nearly 200 songs rendered by Smt.MS and Smt.DKP and trying to findout if their ragams do not falll predominantly within the ten thats of HM.
Commonly known CM ragams cannot be more than 200. I think, it is enough if the rasikas know to more or less correctly identify these 200 ragams . and concentrate more on best kruthi rendering in those ragams.
c) kruthis , even if from the same composer, same ragam , are not uniformly good. Much depends on the lyrics, singer and rendering with bhaavam.
I am not a musicologist.
Can you give me the janaka ragam if I give the name of these 200 ragams? ( I will give the list). We can collaborate and create a website for this and give links to the best songs of the three above vocalists , in each ragam. That would help.
Thank you.
Last edited by RSR on 13 Mar 2018, 12:32, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 13 Mar 2018, 12:04
Ranganayaki
» 13 Mar 2018, 10:58
@60-> Ranganayaki-> I am not a total stranger to orthodox CM.

....
Can you give me the janaka ragam if I give the name of thsee 200 ragams? That would help.
Thank you.
I did not say or imply that you are a stranger to "orthodox CM!" You asked a question or said something and I gave you my thoughts, because I was not in agreement. I don't know anything about you, except that I surmise that you are an experienced listener.

Regarding your question in color, there are many online resources that you can look at with a simple search and find tool to find the janaka raga of a lot of named janyas. I'm not keen on spending time on that, if you don't mind.

Thank you for the Shodhganga lead which helped in clarifying the concept of "Thaat" a little for me.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 13 Mar 2018, 12:52, edited 1 time in total.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 20:09 [

The article describes the Hindustani system as based on 12 swaras and the Carnatic on 16 swaras. I think this is misleading. Carnatic classification is also based on 12 swaras but offers more permutations and combinations. It is not as if the octave is divided into 16 notes.
Yes, it is only 12 swaras, the same as in HM that lead to the 72 ragas. I think the distinction is made between swaras and swarasthanas. HM has 12 distinct swaras with their distinct swarasthanas, while CM has the same 12 distinct swaras with 16 occasionally overlapping swarasthanas.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 26 Feb 2018, 20:09
The elaborate and intricate work of the great Carnatic composers had a profound impact on the evolution of Carnatic music.
This is interesting when considered against the role of compositions in hm concerts. I could be wrong but compositions are incidental in hm, and are often used like pallavis in improvisation. But in CM, poetic compositions are Also musically notated and raga swaroopa develops organically, with singers' distinct styles and banis adding to the body of the ragas, along with the compositions and their own phraseology and no raga has a static, set form that cannot evolve. The scale details are a framework of reference, though.

With so much prescriptive description of ragas in HM, I wonder if HM ragas are static, or do they evolve? Have they evolved?

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@64-> Ranganayaki->
while CM has the same 12 distinct swaras with 16 occasionally overlapping swarasthanas.
How do we write down the 22 overlapping swarasthanams? By practice and hearing only. Not by notation.
------------------------------------------
simple search and find tool to find the janaka raga of a lot of named janyas.

I do spend a lot of time in googling.Not infrequently, many who mention about janaka ragam for a particular janya ragam , also mention that the janya ragam can be thought to be derived from some other scale as well.
I found this shodhganga thesis very informative. It is not a single downloadable pdf and is copy-right material.
What you found after so much search is very simply stated in this series of articles.
http://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/handle/10603/127475
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I had given the link to the abstract only. The actual chapters are very nice.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR, are we in an argument? Not as far as I know. I responded to a few posts that interested me. Regarding the 12 vs 16 swarasthanas, I was commenting on vayoo flute's post. I only wanted to add that there aren't 16 swaras but 16 swarasthanas. I was adding info and it had nothing to do with notation or how to write them, and I'm not sure why you are responding to me about notation. I mentioned notation in another context, and you are welcome to your views.

I was very grateful for the shodhganga link and i understood that it must be a whole lot of pdfs. I thanked you and didn't criticize it. I actually got an answer to my question which is not to be found anywhere else.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@68-> RN-> Not at all. Just trying to see if I have missed something. As I said, I am trying to present CM ragams to a HM fan , in an idiom that he is familiar with. Secondly, to buttress my perception that HM scales are inherently sweet, though I do not know why. ( I can hear murmurs, about 'sweet' etc being subjective..May be) If I am able to see that most of the songs by my Trinity ( MS,DKP,NCV) have sung in these 10 scales , common to HM and CM, my purpose will be served. How can I 'show' the swarasthanams ,in print? A genuine doubt. Not argument.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

I made a mistake.

HM: 7 swaras, 12 distinct swarasthanas. Apart from sa and pa which are fixed, all the other swaras have 2 swarasthanas each.

CM: 7 swaras, 16 sometimes overlapping swarasthanas. Ri, ga, dha and ni have three swarasthanas each that may overlap, and ma has two.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 13 Mar 2018, 22:12 @68-> RN-> How can I 'show' the swarasthanams ,in print? A genuine doubt. Not argument.
Since it is a genuine question, I will try to answer, but you may not like it.

The sapta swaras are set in stone. A sampoorna raga HAS to have 7 distinct swaras, no more, no less. The GA HAS TO BE HIGHER THAN THE RI. Without the 16 swarasthanas, you cannot have the melakartas system of classification. Without calling it r-1,2,3 or dha-1,2,3 (for example), you cannot have the chakras or the neat progression of the ragas within a chakra. The neat, elegant logic of the chakras will be lost if you had to name the swaras in the HM WAY.

Without this system, you cannot sing Vivadi swaras. There will be no possibility for a raga like Ganamurthi. This is exactly the situation in HM. If you name the swarasthanas in the HM way,Ganamurthi's arohana would br S R1 R2 M P D1 N2 S. Impossible. Ganamurthi's non-existence in HM will be carried over into CM! How do you think it will fit in the melakartas chart? Or if you push it, you will be notating all the ga of current Ganamurthi as r2, with its current Ri as R1. Now your students will have to slow down and figure out each ri, and you can only hope they won't get frustrated.

So your only option is to use the currently existing system. In this you only specify the arohana-avarohana (with swarasthanas) at the top of the page and proceed to notate the song normally. Otherwise you will destroy the whole logic of CM and then you will have intuitive music. But that will require everyone to be willing to follow you (your lead)

Sachi_R
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Sachi_R »

I feel the approach of the 22 shruti scale is the best. I wish someone maps/shares a map to play Carnatic scales on the online 22 Shruti player.
Image

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki » 14 Mar 2018, 07:04
HM: 7 swaras, 12 distinct swarasthanas. Apart from sa and pa which are fixed, all the other swaras have 2 swarasthanas each.CM: 7 swaras, 16 sometimes overlapping swarasthanas. Ri, ga, dha and ni have three swarasthanas each that may overlap, and ma has two.
-----------------------------------------
I know about that. I repeat, ..
Image
R3=G1; G3=G2; D3=N1, N3=N2
.I exclude all the 46 janaka ragams that need breaking the rule.
That leaves us with 26 janaka ragams only. which follow the rule strictly.
HM makes use of only 10 of them.
HM can perhaps add a few more from the left-out 16 janaja ragams .
* That will bring some nice ragams from CM to HM'
But, if we analyze the CM ragams usually composed and sung, we will find that quite a few of the janaka ragams and derivatives are lacking in musicality. Except some musicians who intentionally choose such ragams just to be different from the 'crowd'. I am prteparing a detailed chart with illustrative kruthis and mp3's.
( I read somewhere that brothers of Saint Thyagaraja, burnt quite a few experimental kruthis of the saint as they broke the rule. Good work! )
-----------------------
To put it simply, there are only 12 swarams and swarasthanams that can be written down.
They are S r R g G m M P d D n N S
S = Shadjama
R1 = Shudhdha Rishabha
R2 = Chathushruthi Rishabha
R3 = Sathshruthi Rishabha
G1 = Shudhdha Gandhara
G2 = Sadharana Gandhara
G3 = Anthara Gandhara
M1 = Shudhdha Madhyama
M2 = Prathi Madhyama
P = Panchama
D1 = Shudhdha Daivatha
D2 = Chathushruthi Daivatha
D3 = Sathshruthi Daivatha
N1 = Shudhdha Nishadha
N2 = Kaishika Nishadha
N3 = Kaakali Nishadha

===================================================================================
From this, your subsequent explanation, becomes unnecessary. No offense meant.
( in the hope that it would be taken in right spirit, I read all the preceding posts in a thread, before I post a comment either requesting clarification or offering a different view).

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 14 Mar 2018, 08:43 I feel the approach of the 22 shruti scale is the best. I wish someone maps/shares a map to play Carnatic scales on the online 22 Shruti player.
Image
What exactly do you mean, RSachi? The 22 Sruthis are merely described, in the practice of Carnatic music.. we fix a swarasthana and we observe that in reality the singing involves a range of frequencies for each sthana and this is brought about by gamaka which is at the heart of this music. So are you saying that we have to notate 22 swarasthanas? I don't agree. This is the practice of music, this is the level at which intuition and personal style work to create the effects. If you notate those, it becomes very systematic, of course, but the soul is lost and there is no scope for individuality. Plus the meaning of gamaka is lost. You can't have 22 swarasthanas AND gamaka, you will have a far more sensitive ear but nothing from the "heart." And the notes will be flat.

Or have I misunderstood what you meant, and I'm missing something?

Sachi_R
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Sachi_R »

For me the 22 shruti scale of Dr Oke brings a common ground to map the "scales" of HM and CM.
Gamakas define ragas, and we need to move beyond the scale. But the melakarta scheme is scale based, and that's the current discussion.
Mr Vinayakam has created a gamaka "box" notation that maps Carnatic gamakas. This was discussed some time ago.
I feel the 22 shruti scale implementable in CM combined with the gamaka box will meet many needs.

I am not a musician and cannot add much value to a detailed discussion here. Sorry.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

RSR wrote: 14 Mar 2018, 11:17
Ranganayaki » 14 Mar 2018, 07:04
HM: 7 swaras, 12 distinct swarasthanas. Apart from sa and pa which are fixed, all the other swaras have 2 swarasthanas each.CM: 7 swaras, 16 sometimes overlapping swarasthanas. Ri, ga, dha and ni have three swarasthanas each that may overlap, and ma has two.
-----------------------------------------
I know about that.
Ok, I was only speaking to the wider group and correcting what I had said wrong. It was not addressed to you.


I exclude all the 46 janaka ragams that need breaking the rule.
First I'm not sure which 46. I thought you meant to exclude only 40.

So are you saying there should be no Vivadi ragas? But they exist in songs. Are you saying that Ganamurthe should not be sung? Are you saying that you want to change the musical convention that has developed? I can understand if you say that some ragas are only scales and you don't like them. You can exclude them in yournlistenig and some musicians exclude them in their performances. But if you want to limit carnatic music to what hm has, you could just listen only to hm.. your stance seems absurd to me (without meaning any disrespect, honestly) and I feel confused. Am I missing something? Why do you want to negate the entire difference between cm and hm?
That will bring some nice ragams from CM to HM'
How? If these nice ragams haven't already been adopted, how will a new system which removes OTHER ragams make the north adopt your nice ragas?
But, if we analyze the CM ragams usually composed and sung, we will find that quite a few of the janaka ragams and derivatives are lacking in musicality.


So? Don't listen to them! It may even be that no one is singing them! I don't understand the need to change the entire convention or how you propose tonsingle-handedly achieve it.

If you are actually trying to explain cm to your hm friend, you seem to be insisting on making cm fit in your hm structure. How does that inform your friend? Then he already knows what you have to teach him anyway. Again this seems so absurd that I feel I must be wrong, I'm missing something!

-----------------------
To put it simply, there are only 12 swarams and swarasthanams that can be written down.
They are S r R g G m M P d D n N S
S = Shadjama
So nowyou are not making the distinction between swaras and swarasthanas. Why have two terms for the same thing?

Also, you say there are only 12 swarasthanas that can be "written down," whatever that means, yet you proceeded to list 16.
S = Shadjama
Just a friendly note that the word is Shadjam, and not Shadjama. If you are removing the last M, which I often do, it would be Shadja, and not Shadjama. The word does not resemble " Madhyama" or "Panchama."

So in a nutshell, I don't follow what you are trying or wishing to do. Are you arguing for a completely new musical system that negates much of the old and tries to fit it into the hm mold?


[/quote]From this, your subsequent explanation, becomes unnecessary. No offense meant. [/quote]

None taken. But the way I see it, your entire exercise makes no sense. And i keep feeling that I am not following you fully, you can't possibly be wanting to say something absurd. Which is why I am even writing back. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother to write back to your view! Also, you said "subsequent explanation." Your view is so completely different, I'm not sure which part of what I said is acceptable to you.
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 14 Mar 2018, 23:54, edited 1 time in total.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@76->RN-> I need to prepare a table for all the 72 MK using HM notation. Will do that tomorrow and share.
Sri.VK has answered the doubt raised by me nicely. I circumvent, by avoiding all the vivadi scales. as HM has done.
So, no need for things like r3,g3,d3 and n3. I would suggest to the HM friend that they can adopt a few more perfect sampoorna mk and their janya ragams. . I am now preparing a chart for 100 popular CM ragams using the HM notation only. This is purely for personal use.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Sachi_R wrote: 14 Mar 2018, 21:18 For me the 22 shruti scale of Dr Oke brings a common ground to map the "scales" of HM and CM.
What is the need to map the scales? We have successfully appropriated a lot from hm, and have been able to accommodate all of it without trouble. There is no restriction on doing this further. I think we should have proper research to actually understand the two systems in their current forms in a language that is accessible to most of us, like English. We need more lecdems to make correspondences and differences clear and common knowledge to all Rasikas. So that we can move freely between the two systems easily.

It's as though now that you have one Europe, you should somehow try to fit all its languages into one mold. But if a large number of people are multilingual in that context, ease can be managed without loss.
But the melakarta scheme is scale based, and that's the current discussion.
The melakarta scheme just classifies what exists in a certain logic and makes available the complete number of combinations. It does not dictate that you should practice what doesn't appeal, and most people know that. Not does it describe gamakas or any realities of the ragas. But it is not out of the question that some beauty is found in obscure melakarta ragas and some composer can tap it and release new beauty and create ragaswaroopa.
Mr Vinayakam has created a gamaka "box" notation that maps Carnatic gamakas. This was discussed some time ago.

I feel the 22 shruti scale implementable in CM combined with the gamaka box will meet many needs.
Could you please explain the needs that you feel will be met? A link might suffice if you have already discussed them.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

If no source described the concept of "thaat" fully and correctly and if I could find only one source hidden a bit deeper that clearly stated that a thaat cannot be sung, we suffer from a poverty of sources at such a fundamental level. Sources like Wikipedia freely confuse the concept of raga and thaat. This was true wherever I looked. How can such a fundamental piece of information not be known widely?

If we are struggling at this level to understand what exists, why speak of changing the systems before we clearly understand what's available?

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

I plan to read those pdfs over time, they seem to fulfill this need. I hope I am able to understand how to navigate through them from beginning to end.

Ranganayaki
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Ranganayaki »

Rsr, I asked you so many questions that you haven't answered. But if you don't want to that's fine. I think like most discussions here it leads nowhere, not even to understanding! This has just been two people talking in two different tracks. I hope I have the sense not to bother with such stuff in the future.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

@81->RN->(Madam/Sir)-> i managed to read the pdf from cover to cover and having some issues with the notations. though, it is useful. Did you read Sri.Vasanthakokilam's replies, in the earlier part of this thread? I have answered all your questions. Kindly have a look at
https://sites.google.com/site/cmhm4me/h ... a-keyboard
I am just 30% through the work. MK shown in red are excluded by me. Those in green are accepted among the ten scales in HM. Those in blue are the MK that could be included in HM. The criterion is that there should be no occurence of rR gG mM dD nN . in successive places in aro or avaro.
It takes time to rewrite the notes for all the 72 first and then the janyaragams based on perfect sampoorna ragams. So give me time. It is just for my personal use. I just wanted to know, if such a representation will break CM totally. Sri.VK has assured that except when singing swarams , it wont. ....
As for Sachi Sir's note on gamakam, my understanding is that there is no gamakam in HM.
Have a look at another of my sites, just begun and making little progress because of lack of time and perhaps energy. http://sites.google.com/site/carnaticgems
Do not take anything personally. What is the harm in approaching things from a different angle? I did not proceed from grammar to literature.The other way round. See my site http://sites.google.com/site/dkpattammalsongs. One can love these songs even without knowing anything about the ragam and grammar stuff. Very often , we miss the wood for the trees. Wrong approach.
I have never bothered to give aro-avaro of any of the saongs or the MK scale or chkara stuff. It is just unnecessary jargon. Sri.VK puts it simply as 'chinna ri, periya ri'. Simple. What grandiose and pompous names! For a few days, let us take a break. Not that thousands of people are following this thread after all!

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Ranganayaki
Rsr, I asked you so many questions that you haven't answered
Madam, Just now prepared the page given below.
Kindly see that . I think, it should clarify what I am trying to say.
https://sites.google.com/site/cmhm4me/h ... m-notation

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Very informative and plain -speaking posts on janya ragams and parent scale.
How some ( even many) in the 72 MK scheme are unfit for janya ragams.
viewtopic.php?t=2982
Thank you Sirs.

MadhavRayaprolu
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

RSR wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 16:10 In short, can we substitute g2, g3,n2, n3 with g1,g2,n1,n2 respectively as in HM?
Yes, except you get 32 non-vivadi melas instead of 72. I actually like the simplicity of 32 parent ragas as a replacement for the 10 thaats.

But at some level neither thaats nor 32 non vivadis nor 72 melas are overly impressive to me. First off, this classification has nothing to do with aesthetics and it is purely for organization based on notes as people pointed out. It also do a poor job of organizing ragas - given that ragas could have different notes in arohana and avarohana, vakra prayogas, child ragas can belong to multiple parents, etc etc.

Perhaps the main benefit we got out of the melakartha scheme is that it provided a clever way to notate and explore the possibilities of vivadis. It took an explicit stance that if you are going to have 2 Ri’s, you can’t also have a Ga etc. That is brilliant indeed and we have some wonderful vivadi ragas that perhaps may not have been discovered without this scheme. But even this is not comprehensive. Eg; it doesn’t provide a way to have 2 Ma’s and avoid G. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with a scale like: S R2 M1 M2 P D2 N3. Sing avarohanam of this scale and it even sounds beautiful, people sing it all the time in HM’s Shuddha Sarang. As for the 32 non vivadis, that is too simple of a combination problem to give any credit to the melakartha scheme.

My overall take is, while CM has done a much better job in classifying scales compared to HM or Western music, it is still unimpressive by modern standards. I’d love to see classification based on raga aesthetics and/or a mathematically more comprehensive organization of ragas. (Sorry about the negativity in my post).

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

MadhavRayaprolu wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 10:45
RSR wrote: 19 Feb 2018, 16:10 In short, can we substitute g2, g3,n2, n3 with g1,g2,n1,n2 respectively as in HM?
Yes, except you get 32 non-vivadi melas instead of 72. I actually like the simplicity of 32 parent ragas as a replacement for the 10 thaats.

But at some level neither thaats nor 32 non vivadis nor 72 melas are overly impressive to me. First off, this classification has nothing to do with aesthetics and it is purely for organization based on notes as people pointed out. It also do a poor job of organizing ragas - given that ragas could have different notes in arohana and avarohana, vakra prayogas, child ragas can belong to multiple parents, etc etc.

Perhaps the main benefit we got out of the melakartha scheme is that it provided a clever way to notate and explore the possibilities of vivadis. It took an explicit stance that if you are going to have 2 Ri’s, you can’t also have a Ga etc. That is brilliant indeed and we have some wonderful vivadi ragas that perhaps may not have been discovered without this scheme. But even this is not comprehensive. Eg; it doesn’t provide a way to have 2 Ma’s and avoid G. I don’t see anything fundamentally wrong with a scale like: S R2 M1 M2 P D2 N3. Sing avarohanam of this scale and it even sounds beautiful, people sing it all the time in HM’s Shuddha Sarang. As for the 32 non vivadis, that is too simple of a combination problem to give any credit to the melakartha scheme.

My overall take is, while CM has done a much better job in classifying scales compared to HM or Western music, it is still unimpressive by modern standards. I’d love to see classification based on raga aesthetics and/or a mathematically more comprehensive organization of ragas. (Sorry about the negativity in my post).
============================================
Absolutely Brilliant , Sir, Thank you.
(Sorry about the negativity in my post).
Not at all, Sir! Yours is the most aesthetic ( vis a vis mathematical/ conventional) understanding and positive post.
and paves the way for true development of both HM and CM.
---
just an observation. I find that only about 20 janaka ragams ( including the ten in HM) are parents of pleasing ragams. Though, as you rightly point out, it is not always easy to find the parent scale of a janya ragam ,unambiguously. However, I am basing myself on the book by Subba Rao, and am preparing a list of all the CM ragams and their parent as mentioned by him. May take a month's time. Thank you again for a thoughtful input to discussion.

Vayoo Flute
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by Vayoo Flute »

MadhavRayaprolu wrote: 28 Mar 2018, 10:45
My overall take is, while CM has done a much better job in classifying scales compared to HM or Western music, it is still unimpressive by modern standards. I’d love to see classification based on raga aesthetics and/or a mathematically more comprehensive organization of ragas. (Sorry about the negativity in my post).
When you say "unimpressive by modern standards", you must have some ideas in your mind and we would love it if you could share those with us.

Classification almost always implies some logical order. In that, I think there is very little to complain about the Melakartha scheme. I don't believe that an aesthetics-based classification makes much sense as aesthetics by its nature is too subjective. For example, unlike RSR, I find beauty in all of the 72 scales. Going back to my Periodic Table analogy, it makes little sense to classify chlorine and sulfer in the same family just because both have a bad smell. A kedaragowlam and natakuranji are so aesthetically differrent, yet both come from the same harikambodhi family.

Let us also not forget the tremendous impact the melakartha scheme has had in bringing new ragas to the forefront and making the musical ground so fertile that it generated a galaxy of great composers.

MadhavRayaprolu
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by MadhavRayaprolu »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 20:33 When you say "unimpressive by modern standards", you must have some ideas in your mind and we would love it if you could share those with us.
I think we should scrap the idea of janaka and janya ragams or trying to classify ragams using Melakartha scheme given all the issues we discussed earlier. We should leave Melakartha scheme to do what it does best, which is classification of 7-note scales.

We should have a clear definition for what scale makes it into Melakartha and why. Currently it defines a bunch of rules but the intent is not clear. Like the 2 Ma's scale that I pointed out needs clarity on why it is out. Similarly, a scale like the following is not part of Melakartha: S R2 G2 G3 P D2 N2. This is Mishra Shivaranjani with a N2, no less beautiful than other vivadis. If our intent is to pick 7 notes out of 12 possible notes, and given S is a constant, there are 11C6 combinations. Many of them sound awkward and they should be out. Eg; S R1 R2 G2 G3 M1 M2 S" is obviously awkward. This awkwardness needs to be clearly defined and codified. If the intent is to spread the 7 notes more or less evenly, then we can define a max distance between two notes of a scale and eliminate scales in the 11C6 combinations that exceed max limits. We can also debate and decide whether P is a must for a melakartha ragam. With all this, we'll have clear and meaningful objectives for the melakartha system and a mathematically robust system to generate the scales instead of arbitrary rules.
Classification almost always implies some logical order. In that, I think there is very little to complain about the Melakartha scheme. I don't believe that an aesthetics-based classification makes much sense as aesthetics by its nature is too subjective. For example, unlike RSR, I find beauty in all of the 72 scales. Going back to my Periodic Table analogy, it makes little sense to classify chlorine and sulfer in the same family just because both have a bad smell. A kedaragowlam and natakuranji are so aesthetically differrent, yet both come from the same harikambodhi family.
Unlike periodic table, ragas are all about aesthetics :) I agree it is a messy exercise. But I think it'll be pretty insightful to see the underlying melodic components that make up a ragam. We can start with key phrases or key gamakams and classify ragas that are based on these phrases and gamakams. Eg; a G2 M1 phrase with a kampitha gandharam is a very characteristic phrase. As a music student, I'd love to know all the ragas that have this phrase, and further narrow down by other characteristic phrases. That is so much more insightful to me than a purely notes based classification. Parrikar does a great job explaining the raganga system in HM: http://www.parrikar.org/hindustani/kalyan/

Having key phrases based classification doesn't preclude us from having other classification systems. In fact, the more the merrier. We can still have notes based classification. We can also classify ragas based on the "bigness" (total number of defining phrases). Or mood - lighter vs heavier etc.

RSR
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by RSR »

Vayoo Flute wrote: 29 Mar 2018, 20:33
.
A kedaragowlam and natakuranji are so aesthetically differrent, yet both come from the same harikambodhi family.
Respected Sri.V.F.Sir,
yes. The ragams kedaragaulam , nattakurinji and harikambodhi each have their own beauty. On what basis are they clubbed together? which came first?...the ragam or classification? My understanding is that the ragam came first. Who ever, 'invented' these ragams, did not start from the notes of the scale.

HarishankarK
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Re: Thoughts on Thaats

Post by HarishankarK »

Liked the title of this post :)

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