SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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RSR
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SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

The following list of 40 kritis have been created by Thyagaraja Swami in Sanskrit. May I have confirmation? Also if any of them are from his operas?
http://translationsofsomesongsofcarntic ... araja.html
We have with us about 700 Krithis of Thyagaraja . Almost all of them are written in Telugu, which is the mother tougue of the saint . Only 40 of the available 675 Krithis have been written in Sanskrit . They are :-

1. Giriraja Sutha - Bangala
2. Janaki Ramana - Suddha Seemanthini
3. Sudha Madhurya - Sindhu Ramakriya
4. Naada Thanumanisam - Siddha Ranjani
5. Sri Raghuvara Suguna - Bhairavi
6. Samajavaragamana - Hindolam
7. Sri Narada Naadha - Kaanada
8. Mrudu Bhashana - Maruva Dhanyasi
9. Sujana Jeevana - Kamas
10.Sri Raghuvara - Kambhoji
11.Niravathi Sukadha - Ravichandrika
12.Sundaradara Deham - PanthuVarali
13.Devadhi Deva Sadasiva- Sindhu Ramakriya
14.Jagadhanandha - Naatai
15.Bale Balendhu - RithiGowla
16.Deva Sri Tapastirtha - Madhyamavathi
17.Mahitha Pravrutha - Kambhoji
18.Sambho Mahadeva - PanthuVarali
19.Ehi Trijagadeesa - Saranga
20.Sive Pahimam - Kalyani
21.Eesha Pahimam - Kalyani
22,Namo namo Raghavaya anisam - DEsiya Thodi
23,THva dasoham -Punnagavaralu
24.Manasa sanchara re –Punnaga varali
25.Dheena janavana sri Rama -Bhoopalam
26.Pahi pahi dheena bandho -SAurashtram
27.Bhaja Ramam sathatham -Huseni
28.Sundara Dasaratha Nandana -kapi
29.Rama yeva daivatham -Balahamsa
30.Paripalaya Dasarathe –Sankara bharanam
31.Sri Raghu vara Dasarathe -SAnkarabharana,
32.Pahi Ramachandra Palitha-Sankarabharanam
33.Gatha mohasritha - SAnkarabharanam
34.Vara leelaa , ghaana leela SAnkarabharanam
35.Sri Rama Rama jagathaa -Poorna chandrika
36.Palaya Sri Raghu veera –Deva gandhari
37.Pahi paramathma sathatham - varali
38.Pahi Rama dhootha Jagatprana-Vasantha Varali
39.Jaya Mangalam Nithya Shubha mangalam-Gantaa
40.Ksheera sagara vihara -Ananda BHairavi

P. S.
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by P. S. »

Some of these krithis, such as Bālē bālēndu bhūṣaṇi or Śivē pāhimāṁ have some sections that are in sanskrit but also have sections in Telugu.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

.
Check this for complete list of 57 Sanskrit kritis by Tyagaraja, along with detailed analysis -
https://shodhganga.inflibnet.ac.in/bits ... er%205.pdf


@RasikasModerator2
This thread may be merged with 'Tyagaraja (Kritis)' thread under 'Vaggeyakaras'.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@3
I have already read that pdf. It is not a research paper at all. I have gone through the Thyagaraja Swami centenary Music academy publication (1947). and could not find any focused article on this particular topic. Sangeethapriya site on Thyagaraja Swami kritis may give the required information. Thyagaraja Vaibavam of Sri.V.Govindan also does not mention the language of all the kritis. I am raising this here in General Discussion for better visibility and help from sanskrit scholars in this forum.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

This is the list given in the pdf cited by PB.
Five of them are mentioned as doubtful.
1-Bhajare Bhajaminasa
2-Bhaja ramam satatam
3-Brindavana lola ( ? )
4-Dasarathe -ok
5-Deva rama rama -ok
6-Deva sri thapasthTrtha
7-evSdi deva
8-ehi tava padabhaktim
9-Dinajanavana
10-hi trijagadlsa
11-Ganamurthe * ---doubtful
12-Gatamoha
13-girirajasuta -sanskrit-vg
14-Jagadanandakaraka
15-janaki ramana

16-jankajasameta
17-Jayamangaiam
18-Jo Jo Rama
19-Kalasa vardhijam *
20-Kshira sagara
21-Mahita pravrudha
22-Mamava satatam
23-Manasasancharare
24-Maravairi *
25-Nada tanumanisam
26-namo Namo Raghavaya
27-Niravadhi sukhada

28-Pahi pahi dinabandho
29-pahi paramadayalo
30-Pahi rSma duta
31-Pahi ramachandra
32-Palaya sri raghuvira
33-Paripalaya dasarathe
34-Paripalayamam
35-Phanipathisayi
36-Raghupathe
37-Rama eva daivatam
38-Ramam Bhajeham
39-Samaja varagamana
40-sambho Mahdeva
41-Sambho sivasankara guru
42-sarasanetra *
43-seetha kalyana
44-Sobhane sobhane
45-Sri gananatham *
46ri janakatanaye
47-Sri Narada
48-Sri Narasimha
49-Sri raghuvara
50-Sri raghuvara dasarathe
51-ri Rama Rama
52-Sujana jeevana
53-Sundaratara deham
54-Vara leela
55-Varada navanitasa
56-Varasikhi vahana
57-Vasudeva varaguna*
dinamaNi vamsa, (?)

HarishankarK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by HarishankarK »

What is the colour codes?

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

red/pink denotes well-known kritis -my favourite songs
green - beyond doubt.
--------------------
Why not clarify ? it is said that a few are spurious.

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

kalashavArtijAm is ratnAngi is genuine.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

SrinathK wrote: 16 Jan 2020, 08:21 kalashavArtijAm is ratnAngi is genuine.
Doubtful.
http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... -raga.html
----------------------------
कलश वार्धिजां सततं भजे
कमल लोचनां श्री रमां मां

अ. कळभ गामिनीं करिभि(रा)वृतां
कमल नाभ हृत्कमल स्थितां (क)

च. कमनीय जय धन धान्य रूपां
कन(का)दि धैर्य लक्ष्मी स्वरूपां
कमलां महा सन्तान रूपां
कम(ला)लयां त्यागराज मोक्ष प्रदां (क)
-------------------------
Sanskrit of course.
but
As per remarks available in the book ‘Compositions of Tyagaraja’ by Sri TK Govinda Rao, this kRti is listed in the category of ‘doubtful’, which means that it is doubtful whether SrI tyAgarAja has indeed composed this kRti.
( by Sri.Govindan)
-------------
It does not seem to be any kshetra kriti.
Further clarification/ cross reference requested.

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

Here it is, from. The Walajapet Notations : https://youtu.be/rky98nETboI

That is one clarification.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

SrinathK wrote: 18 Jan 2020, 10:10 Here it is, from. The Walajapet Notations : https://youtu.be/rky98nETboI

That is one clarification.
Walajapet manuscripts are not 100% reliable. I am afraid that quite a few of VRB and his son have been added there. TK Govindarao would not have casually raised doubts about the authenticity.
Better to have corroborating references from other schools of Thyagaraja Swami's desciples.
There is a detailed article about Walajapet manuscripts in Music Academy journal of 1947. The article is not too certain about things.
RaviSri may be requested for their view.

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

RSR wrote: 18 Jan 2020, 12:29
SrinathK wrote: 18 Jan 2020, 10:10 Here it is, from. The Walajapet Notations : https://youtu.be/rky98nETboI

That is one clarification.
Walajapet manuscripts are not 100% reliable. I am afraid that quite a few of VRB and his son have been added there. TK Govindarao would not have casually raised doubts about the authenticity.
Better to have corroborating references from other schools of Thyagaraja Swami's desciples.
There is a detailed article about Walajapet manuscripts in Music Academy journal of 1947. The article is not too certain about things.
RaviSri may be requested for their view.
Who will then do the research to determine the facts as far as possible? Last time you made some claims based on your own tastes or quoting a blog. That isn't a true research driven conclusion. On what basis can you claim the manuscripts are not fully reliable? Which part could be authentic and which is not? Who will search for the other schools and get any surviving collections from them? So far what I have been seeing, there is ample evidence that these renditions are very authentic and we actually see a distinct Thyagaraja style. The style of WjVB both lyrically and musically is also quite different from Thyagaraja's. In fact of all the schools of Thyagaraja's parampara we have the best preserved info only there. We are aware that many of those notations (an entire manuscript worth of in fact) were made when Thyagaraja was still alive. Because the signatures of both WVB and Thanjavur Rama Rao are on it (the latter passed away before Thyagaraja).

I asked Dr.Aravindhan for the exact source and he told me it comes from Thyagabrahmopanishad by WjVB. Unless I meet him in person I can't right now get more info. He has also brought out some other unpublished compositions mentioned by Sambamoorthy. It also appears there is another song in Ratnangi.

I read the MA article now penned by P Sambamoorthy on the Walajapet Library, most of which was originally belonging to Thyagaraja. You can find it in the 1947 journal page 130-145. Nowhere has any objection been raised on any of the contents in the collection. Both the dance dramas are also there. It is also quite clear both from the kritis and this collection that Thyagaraja was quite familiar with the Bhagavata, ashtapadi and the works of past composers and musicologists and was way more knowledgeable than what we realize. No wonder he was held in such high esteem. WVB also helped preserve some of the music of other composers as well. It looks like the Thyagaraja parampara were familiar with Dikshitar's nottuswaram and also the compositions of Syama Sastri for one.

It is known though that MVI got conned into presenting a set of 30 odd spurious kritis as Thyagaraja's, but an examination of ragas, style, lyrics and phrases would show you that kritis like Abhishta varada sree aren't his by a long shot.

So that is how these things come out and can be concluded, provided enough data is available.

Research needs tremendous amount of time and energy. Even for some of my raga essays which are mostly informal forum postings not meant to be phd level or even close, I have to dig through books, ask so many people, pore over recordings, notate phrases, and evaluate how good my sources are as well. Only then we can reliably conclude anything. And if we can't do all that hard research, we have to then accept it from those who do.

Right now for one kriti so much I had to go through just to reply to you and I did not have to go around doing the real hard work. The other 5 are doubtful, but you imagine how much trouble it takes to verify the authenticity or not.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@SrinathK
https://sites.google.com/site/4carnatic ... anuscripts
Here you are!
------------------------------
I read in this forum that the sanskrit original of the Boat stuff was written by VRB's son himself, when questions were raised regarding the Swami's part in the telugu version. just to show that there was a sanskrit original. ! And a post here, if I remember by Sri.Govindaswamy, that the Sourashtra Sabha people were claiming that many by creations of the father/son are attributed to the Bard.
That would be fine and nearer to the truth.
Unlike the VRB and his son, Thyagaraja was NOT an admirer of Jayadeva version of Bagavatham. and he hated the dance-oriented creations of Kshethragya.
Are there any authentic javalis/ thillannas, pada varnam etc by the Bard? Not to the best of my knowledge. And it is well to remember that there was a name-sake in the lineage . Amusing that almost all the disciples reveled in creating dance music!
Why not get the opinion of leading lights of the other schools of Thyagaraja Swami heritage?

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

I read in this forum that the sanskrit original of the Boat stuff
P Sambamoorthy has himself stated that the Samaskrita version was written later while the Telugu was Thyagaraja's. This is well known. Please do not suggest that the sanskrit was the original. In fact Thyagaraja has mentioned the name of his guru in his work. Though we should look into whether there was any particular reason to compose a sanskrit version.

Sambamoorthy's statement says that the Pothana Bhagavatam manuscript of Thyagaraja was written in Venkataramana Bhagavatar's handwriting because it matched with his handwriting elsewhere. He did not say that Venkataramana Bhagavatar was the actual author of the work. Bammera Potana (1450–1510) was the original author of the Pothana Bhagavatam. It is known as the "Andhra Bhagavatam" and TTD has released it also.

Further, P Sambamoorthy has also tried his best to authentically date each work by examining things as fine as the type of paper on which they were published.

Your claim that SSP didn't mention it can't be taken as a valid point. I have now gone through that part. It did not mention prahlada bhakta vijayam either. Half the songs in that aren't being sung either even now, so? Making nATakas has been a very prevalent pastime of Vaishnava Sampradayas. I am aware of old traditions of nATakas which were performed in Bhagavata festivals across the country in those days, by all men troupes.
Unlike the VRB and his son, Thyagaraja was NOT an admirer of Jayadeva version of Bagavatham. and he hated the dance-oriented creations of Kshethragya.
The Pothana Bhagavatam is an almost exact copy of the Srimad Bhagavatam with nothing excluded from it, not even the chapters of the rasa leela. Further Jayadeva was not the author of the Srimad Bhagavatam or any version of it. Please do not make spurious claims. This claim you make, what is the source and authenticity? Has it been claimed by him or anyone in his parampara? Is there any record? Has any musicologist suggested this till now? Thyagaraja did not want to do nara stuti or get into the materialistic matters of court musicians. But why did he allow his disciples to compose varnams and tillAnAs? Or quote the Bhagavatam in 2 of his pancharatnas even? Please let us not consider conspiracy theories.
Why not get the opinion of leading lights of the other schools of Thyagaraja Swami heritage?
Are you going to listen to the opinions of those who have and are still trying for any piece of valuable information from any source? Or will you yourself take the trouble to contact their descendants?

I'll share some info about my extended family. The descendants of Umayalpuram Swaminatha Iyer are related to my maternal great grandmother indirectly as her elder sister was married to Rajagopala Iyer. Unfortunately today none of their descendants went on to carry forward the musical heritage and all of them are very old and are now unable to even recognize us - however there may still be one or two who could help us out. I do remember that RaviSri's version of vAsudEvayani was similar to how my great grandmother would sing it (she had learnt a few songs from USI, but alas, all lost to dementia). My grandfather despite his talent unfortunately could not learn from him due to circumstances - but he has told me some incidents of how he did not approve of MVI's liberties. With my great grandmother's passing 2 decades ago all the direct disciples of USI in any capacity are gone. Like a curse on that whole family, their musical wealth has now dispersed amongst the wider music community and it is gone.

The Lalgudi parampara is all modern now. The thillaisthalam parampara was too generous with their manuscripts and therefore nearly all that they preserved was lost over time -- however their version of kana kana ruchira and a few other songs like rA rA seeta ramani manOhara have survived. Are you aware of how much we have lost and how difficult efforts are still being made to search and find out what is there?
And a post here, if I remember by Sri.Govindaswamy, that the Sourashtra Sabha people were claiming that many by creations of the father/son are attributed to the Bard.
Which ones may they be and who said this? Can you quote the post? If vgovindan is the one you are referring to, we can always ask him. In any case, his blog is familiar to all of us. I am still looking for this post and the author.

I have heard many compositions of WVB. His style is far too different to be mixed up with his guru.

All claims of this nature must be backed up with appropriate research and one must be ready to look at the subject in depth. Now if I had to choose between you and Dr. Aravindh, I would always pick him because he knows his stuff very deep. Plus there is enough for me to do a bit of amateur research of my own and see a few things for myself - now I am sure for one, that Thyagaraja also used gauLipantu with shuddha madhyamam.

Truth is established like this, bit by bit after tremendous effort to prove or disprove a hypothesis or find the facts and then infer or declare insufficient evidence to come to a conclusion. Opinions based on highly subjective tastes or claims with heavy confirmational bias only push a narrative, not the truth.

Now I am going to make a claim here that Thyagaraja was familiar with both sampUrna and asampUrna melas and followed the prevailing lakshanas for many ragas common to both schools, even though he was more on the sampUrna side of things and gave fresh life to harikAmbhOji and kharaharapriya. Apart from that he has of course created his own scalar ragas, but did not reveal the names himself. Some came from his disciples. Others were named based on the closest similar scales in the books, but doing this and mixing up raga names has caused enough confusion and distortion down the road.

I will look into this Thyagabrahma upanishad when I get the time.

Last time this discussion happened, I argued with some heat, but this time I am putting my points calmly.
Last edited by SrinathK on 18 Jan 2020, 22:10, edited 4 times in total.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

@SrinathK
Thank you ! You have said enough !

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@13
@SrinathK
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=824&start=350
(pl see 373) for the post by Sri.Govindasamy
--------------
Also @370 by me.
------------------
Glad to know about your CM pedigree.
--------------
Some of the Shodhganga papers are informative but not all. You may know about the ritual of PG level papers and projects. Rather than musicologists of the present era, the best reference will be vocalists of the 1930 to 1960 decades. I came across a good Shodhganga paper on the disciples of Thyagaraja Swami. Will share shortly.
-----------------------------------------
A nice blog post here.
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2008/11/1 ... ja-school/
Manambucchavadi Venkatasubbayyar: The prathama sishya of Tyagaraja, he was also a cousin of the composer. He was a violinist as well and also a Sanskrit and Telugu scholar. Among Tyagaraja’s disicples, he was probably the longest with him in time and after the composer’s death he set up his own school at Tiruvayyaru. Among the many star disciples he had, Mahavaidyanatha Sivan, Patnam Subrahmanya Iyer and the blind flautist Sarabha Sastrigal were famous artistes
--------------
The 'Sivan brothers' and the 'vaitthi' brothers of Sivaganga jamin were all very famous and there is the branch of Patnam-> Poochi Iengar-> ARI.
If ARI had sung the kriti on Lakshmi ( sanskrit) or any of the 20 from the Boat episode, it may be supporting evidence.

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

Rather than musicologists of the present era, the best reference will be vocalists of the 1930 to 1960 decades
Again, just opinion. In fact overall this generation and the 1-2 generations before them did the maximum number of changes. Only in some cases were songs properly preserved, mostly by the ladies. Even there I can pick some holes. This is because of the literacy level of those days, lack of facilities, and sometimes just plain tampering for stage presentation.

They may have sung several all time great numbers, and as a rasika my emotional side can be thrilled to no end by their music, but as a student looking deep into the traditions of music, my impersonal analytical side also has to point out all their deviations.

If anything, with the wealth of information available to us very easily now, it is my generation that is probably closer to old tradition now than before.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

Not so fast.
@SrinathK
It is true that except GNB , the other greats of Carnatic Summer were not having any college education. Does it really matter? If SSI were with us now, what would he say about your hearsay? We are discussing CM of Thyagaraja swami here and what matters is knowledge of Telugu and Sanskrit rather than English. and all of them had Prof.V.Ragavan to help them in Sanskrit and Telugu. as well.
The early stalwarts moved in great company of scholars . and learned by association. We are talking about ARI, MVI,MUSIRI,MMI,TIGER, MMD, DKP and MSS.
This article may be of interest .
https://sites.google.com/site/homage2ms ... miniscence
Musiri had eminent administrators like S.Y.Krishnaswamy, ICS in his close circle. He was entirely self-taught.
Smt.MS knew how to read and write Grantha Lipi, a skill very much needed in understanding the past.
-------------------------------
As for musicologists, we had people like Ambi Dikshitar, TLV Sastry, C.R.Stinivasa Iengar, Ranga Ramanuja Iengar, Subba Rao, T.K.Govinda Rao, and many more.

A nice blog post by SriramV.
C.R.Srinivasa Iengar
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2013/02/2 ... a-iyengar/[/b]
( the comments also are valuable)
------------------------------
And here is a nice blog post by Dr.Pasupathy
C.R.Srinivasa Iengar on Thyagaraja kritis
https://s-pasupathy.blogspot.com/2017/01/106.html

He translated Valmiki Ramayanam into Tamizh. and a few English translations of Upanishads. Collaborated with Dr.V.Ragavan in 'Spiritual heritage of Thyagaraja' and translated many kritis into English.

Theirs was a life entirely dedicated to scholarship .
Who ever thought of obtaining PG degree in music and musicology?
CM is best learned over decades of ' gurukula vaasam' and not through notations ONLY . and the musicians spent minimum of ten years in guru's household.
Kindly avoid rash comments. about the Greats of the early decades.
Our reference is 1900 to 1960.
Period.

SrinathK
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

YOUR reference is (limited to) 1900-1960. I do not subscribe to notions that there was no great music or musical discoveries after that period and I also do not accept statements like there was nothing of practical value dating before this period either. Music is thousands of years old and like all other fields, still evolving. That is just I may say the old gen attitude towards the new gen 'upstarts' and it has been around forever. Every legend on the pedestal today was once considered an upstart.

It is only because of recordings, notations and the rise of musicology today that CM has come to stability and can go deeper into exploring its past and avoid disruptive forms of innovation. All these musicologists you mentioned have themselves repeatedly requested and complained about the trends of musicians changing the music arbitrarily.

I say it again, as a rasika I am different. As a researcher I am different. When I am certain of what I am saying and I can back it up I will not hesitate to say it. As a rasika I do not know how many of my age have spent as much time listening to old masters in awe of their prowess. If that sounds like heresy or contradictory to the fans, that's their own interpretation. Clearly they haven't seen my music collections.

That music was extraordinarily great, and many rasikas are responsible for preserving this much of it, including you, and I am indebted to all of them for it. I hope they will continue their efforts as always. But to consider that as the be all and end all and dismiss everything else or the efforts taken by others in other aspects of music -- is narrow. And highly misleading.

With that I wish to move back to the topic at hand and more productive work.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@19
@SrinathK
So be it. No problem.
You are exploring the Ragam aspect while I am exploring the authenticity of Lyrics of the Trinity alone ( that too of Thyagaraja Swami) and the theme.
-----------------------
I came across a very fine blog post on VeeNai DhanammaaL today by SriramV and have placed it in musicians section ( sticky).
How to make it to be seen by all rasikas ( sticky.. and hence likely to be missed )
Please help.

RSR
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Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

Dr.Raghavan has written about the Boat song theme. Read chapter-9 of 'Spiritual Heritage of Thyagaraj'. He asserts that the Sanskrit 'original' of Nouka Charitham is alter addition and definitely not the inspiration for the Bard's ( ?) opera. SriramV has written a nice blog about the glaring inconsistencies.. ( in some of those 20 songs, Krishna is a very small boy and in some other, he is a grown up adult flirting with women).
THYAGARAJA AND BOAT CHRONICLE
https://sriramv.wordpress.com/2017/04/1 ... chronicle/
( I do not agree with his view about Thyagaraja changing his 'puritanical' view, in this opera, though)
The more I go through the lyrics of Thyagaraja, the firmer becomes my conviction that the Boat stuff is clearly the work of either WVRB or his son, more likely, the son.
In critical analysis of authenticity, we go by the theme of the lyrics and spirit also.
Have you heard 'AyarpAdi kaNNA Nee, AdavAraay ennodu, hey bagavaane hey nagavane' It was a film song of early 1950's justly parodying the gopika theme's vulgarity. explicitly mentioning 'kANakkidaikka angam paar'.
At least, it does not mention robbing of clothes and asking women to go without dress.
In Mahabaratham, the Lord is the giver of Vasthram , not a disrober.
(Draupathi's Vasthrabaranam.)


The CM composers were in effect Dwaitham followers.

I wonder if you have ever read anything of the Bible ( Dr.Raghavan himself has given some quotations from the Church literature).
Just substitue 'God', wherever you find your Rama in Thyagaraja Kritis, the message fits perfectly.
Especially 'The Gospel according to St.Mathew'.
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If you have not observed the GREAT similarities between the stories of Krishna and Christ, like Kamsa and Herod, the parting of the sea, etc, I would be really surprised.
Matthew 8:23-27 New International Version (NIV)
Jesus Calms the Storm

23 Then he got into the boat and his disciples followed him. 24 Suddenly a furious storm came up on the lake, so that the waves swept over the boat. But Jesus was sleeping. 25 The disciples went and woke him, saying, “Lord, save us! We’re going to drown!”

26 He replied, “You of little faith, why are you so afraid?” Then he got up and rebuked the winds and the waves, and it was completely calm.

27 The men were amazed and asked, “What kind of man is this? Even the winds and the waves obey him!”
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See the elegant way in which the Gospel says the same thing!
No vulgarity
.

SrinathK
Posts: 2477
Joined: 13 Jan 2013, 16:10

Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by SrinathK »

Yes I am very familiar with the texts of the major religions. But when it's obvious you didn't even bother to read or even consider what I had written whether on kalashavarthijam or Bhagavata or anything else, I don't have to spend any more time with this. Your intentions are not to listen or research the truth. You have come with pre decided conclusions and you selectively pick facts or slant observations into an argument. The way you trash and dismiss anything outside your comfort zone is just too holier than thou for any fruitful discussion.

Let bhaktim_dehi or vgovindan or some other rasika deal with you, if they wish. If Dr Aravindhan or Dr Ramanathan or any other musicologist does a thorough analysis of the music, lyrics, linguistic style, sources, ragas, plot, influence, style, textual dating, and comparison of Thyagaraja's style with his other disciples and then concludes, I can accept that. I prefer genuine research to pretentious activism. To me that is intellectual vulgarity.

I have not one more minute for this.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

some kritis mentioned by Dr.V.Raghavan ( page 44)
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Eg.
Nadatanumanisam,
Samajavaxagamana,
Jagadananda Karaka,
Varasikhivaliana,
Varahla ghanalola,
Dehi tava padabhaktim,
Ehi Trijagadisa,
MSmava Satatam,
Namo Namo RaghavSya,
Nif avadhi Sukhada,
PhanipatisSyi,
Sujanajivana,
Sri Narasimha,
Raghupate,
Bhajare bhaja xOSnasa,
Tulasibilva,
Devadeva,
MaMtapraYriddha,
Sambho Mahadeva,
Sri Janakatanaye,
Pahi RSmduta,
Rama eva Daivatam.

2. While a few are m a mixed style,-e.g. Tava.dSso'ham, Pam Paramatma,
many take off in Sanskrit, in the, Pallavi'and go into Telugu, m'the main body:-
Isa pahi mam,
Siye pahi mam,
MSmava RaghurSma,
Re manasa chintaya,
Rama pShi meghasySma,
Sri Ramachandra Raghava,
Bhaja re JRaghuviram,
Sii Raghuvara,
Pahi Kalyariasundktra;
Dasatathanandana,
and Divyanamas
starting' with Pahi. Ela nidayairSdu is, an epsampl^ of a piece with Telugn
opening and Sanskrit body.
-----------------------------------
I am puzzled why 'Janaki RamaNaa' is found missing in this list though Dr.VR refers to the kriti elsewhere.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@22
The song mentioned by you is not by Thyagaraja Swami
Do not give tube link. Recent uploads do not work in all browsers.
Give textual reference, if at all.
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It matters very little whether you accept my view point or I accept yours.
After all, even the Kriti list of the Trinity has not been agreed by all yet!
I stick to my view and you are perfectly at liberty to have uyours.
Let us leave it at that.

RSR
Posts: 3427
Joined: 11 Oct 2015, 23:31

Re: SANSKRIT KRITIS BY THYAGARAJA SWAMI

Post by RSR »

@24
Not so. Hoping for help from learned members. Moreover, the references are equally important.

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