Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
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srikanthamshastry
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Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

It is quite interesting to see many of our musicologists and scholars' claim about the time or period in which Shri OVK lived.Some say Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi's period is somewhere in the 1600-1700s for which much evidence havent been explored yet. But a close look into the history and to his compositions draw our attention to a different inference all together.

1. 'sangeeta sampradaya pradarshini' of subbarama deexitar does not mention shri OVK's name in its first chapter of ' vaggeyakara charitam' which covers almost all eminent composers of pre and post trinity period starting from saranga deva to patnam subrahmanya Iyer. Does it mean to say that sri subbarama deexitar was unaware of the name OVK or was he not that popular at that time so that subbara deexitar had to exclude his name from his treatise .?

2.His compositions are filled with modern sancharas and especially parallels which actually is a modern approach in composing kritis which cannot be seen in trinity period.

3.Venkata Kavi has composed in complex taLas like Khanda Dhruvam, Sankeerna Matyam, Mishra Ata and so on which was not a prevailing trend or practice in trinity period and also changes in naDe or gati was not popular practice in trinity period.

4.scholars are of the opinion that shri OVK has composed NavAvaraNa kritis , but a close look into these kritis reveal certain mistakes such as wrong names of yoginis for different aavaraNas which creates suspicion about the authenticity of kritis and makes it hard to believe that OVK is the original composer of all these kritis .


Since the very purpose of any inquiry or questioning is to find truth ,I hope these queries lead to a meaningful discussion and if possible to a logical conclusion .


Regards
Shreekantham Nagendrashastry

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

Thanks for participating!

"It is quite interesting to see many of our musicologists and scholars' claim about the time or period in which Shri OVK lived.Some say Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi's period is somewhere in the 1600-1700s for which much evidence havent been explored yet. But a close look into the history and to his compositions draw our attention to a different inference all together."
What evidence are you looking for?

"1. 'sangeeta sampradaya pradarshini' of subbarama deexitar does not mention shri OVK's name in its first chapter of ' vaggeyakara charitam' which covers almost all eminent composers of pre and post trinity period starting from saranga deva to patnam subrahmanya Iyer. Does it mean to say that sri subbarama deexitar was unaware of the name OVK or was he not that popular at that time so that subbara deexitar had to exclude his name from his treatise .?"
Sri Subbarama Dikshitar has not included Sri OVK's name either as a pre-trinity or post-trinity composer. This fact is of no use to answer the question raised by you.

"2.His compositions are filled with modern sancharas and especially parallels which actually is a modern approach in composing kritis which cannot be seen in trinity period."
His compositions are not filled with modern sancharas -- they are filled with sancharas which were not attempted by many in the trinity period.

"3.Venkata Kavi has composed in complex taLas like Khanda Dhruvam, Sankeerna Matyam, Mishra Ata and so on which was not a prevailing trend or practice in trinity period and also changes in naDe or gati was not popular practice in trinity period."
These complex talas were best suited for Natyam. Those who composed only for singing, did not venture into using these.

"4.scholars are of the opinion that shri OVK has composed NavAvaraNa kritis , but a close look into these kritis reveal certain mistakes such as wrong names of yoginis for different aavaraNas which creates suspicion about the authenticity of kritis and makes it hard to believe that OVK is the original composer of all these kritis ."
IMHO this is irrelevant to the question under reference.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

This is an excellent topic for research. I hope Ravikiran or his students participate in this discussion. In fact the momentum on OVK compositions is lost or slowed down since Ravikiran rediscovered him. NKB was fighting a losing battle in popularizing OVK due to the secrecy as well as his family connections. Let us reiginite the discussions adding our knowledge and critical analysis of the available data on OVK. It is much needed for the progress and new directions in CM, especially to break out of the shackles of Trinity!

Lakshman
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Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Lakshman »

I contacted Chitravina Ravikiran and here is what he sent me:


For about 200 years, Venkata Kavi's works were practised by a small group of people which included some descendants of his brother. I have met several descandants recently and traced a reasonable portion of his family tree as well.

That apart, his 400-odd compositions that I have seen are the most strong and abundant evidence. These answer most of the questions. Anyone can study even 25% of these - either in Tamil or Sanskrit and they will see that certain misconceptions about him, which were there in the earlier part of this century, are easily eradicated. I have shown by more than 230 examples in my book, plus numerous concerts, workshops & lec-dems all over India, USA and other countries, not to mention collaborations with artistes like Vyjayantimala Bali the things below, which answers questions about his period (at least fairly approximately) as well as his calibre as one of India's best ever composers. As Semmangudi sir clearly said, Venkata Kavi is definitely 'in the same calibre as the Trinity' at least...

He was a minor composer: The evidence available proves that he was one of the most prolific, imaginative, original and versatile composers in Indian culture. His style - with dazzling contrasting passages, complex talas, scholarly lyrics but evocative melody - definitely forms one of five distinct composing styles in Carnatic (Trinity plus kshetragna padams, as rendered in the Dhanammal school being the others). All other composers works can be fitted into one of these styles. His choice of sophisticated talas like Khanda Dhruvam (17 units), Sankeerna Mathyam (20) and Mishra Atam (18) as also his handling of ragas of varied types from the weighty Todi, Shankarabharanam, Kalyani etc to the evocative Sahana, Dhanyasi, Anandabhairavi, Devagandhari leave one in no doubt about his musical acumen. Besides, he has also composed high quality pieces in ragas that are relatively rare now such as Balahamsa and Deshakshi. His explorations of Paras and Nadanamakriya are as instructive as enchanting. His compositions in Kharaharapriya are significant in the context of establishing that raga’s popularity in those times, while his works in ragas like Dwijayavanti and Sindhubhairavi prove that these ragas had made their way South much before than what has been documented by musicologists so far. His treatment of any subject matter - be it Rama, Krishna, Anjaneya, Muruga or Vinayaka is most original, scholarly and unique.

He composed just a few songs in colloquial Tamil: There are numerous examples of songs in highly scholarly Tamil and also Sanskrit. The reasons for the colloquial Tamil seen in some songs are simple – these were his operatic creations where he merely portrayed various characters and faithfully employed language to suit them.

He only wrote about Lord Krishna: Numerous compositions of his are addressed to Vinayaka, Shiva, Kartikeya, Devi (which included his Kamakshi Navavarana krtis), Rama, Anjaneya, Saraswati as also on other minor deities like Aghora Veerabhadra, Surya etc. Even more remarkably, he has composed eulogies on Valmiki, Vyasa, Shuka, Jayadeva, Andal and several others and saluted hundreds of other personalities, both mythical and historical. Besides, Venkata Kavi also travelled to various pilgrimage centres and composed on the deities there. These include Srirangam, Kanchi, Madurai, Udupi, Pandarapur, Chennai, Sikkil, Pazhani and Tiruvarur, to name a few.

He employed too many tongue-twisting and teeth-breaking madhyamakalas: That is only a small but colourful part of him. Venkata Kavi has composed several other types of krtis including chowka kala (slow speed) krtis as well.

He was of recent origin - (the ‘modern’ style seems to suggest it): This was a question that was raised by looking at a very small subset from his compositions in the earlier part of the 20th century. But looking at hundreds of songs of Venkata Kavi and also cross referencing them with other works of many composers of the pre-trinity era such as Chaturlaksham Krishnamachari (a forerunner to Annamacharya and Vishnu devotee), Arunagirinathar, Muttuttandavar and others gives one a better perspective on this subject. His style seems to resonate more with those of early 1700s. Venkata Kavi’s usage of madhyama-kala, jatis, complex talas, gati bhedams are more a vanished style rather than a modern one. I have made a specific point in my book clearly that one of the Trinity's significant contribution was to make music more accessible to everyone.

Finally about 'mistakes' or inconsistencies in some compositions, it is there in almost any work of almost any composer and the only way we approach is to study them more to see if there is some aspect or practice that was prevalent then that we don't know about. Much could be as simple as typos/grammatical errors by people transcribing/copying works over centuries/losing a word here and there or losing in transliteration from say Sanskrit to Tamil etc. We see 100s of such in almost every krti rendered by artistes who may not be aware of a given language/meaning etc. From the studies conducted by scholars of Srividya such as S Sankaranarayanan and others, Venkata Kavi's Navavaranams are of the highest calibre. In fact, he is reputed to have got initiation into Avarana pooja from none other than Bhaskara Raya, considered to be next to Adi Shankara in the subject of Devi.

Best regards,

Chitravina N Ravikiran

Welcome to my Website and Blog

Lakshman
Posts: 14019
Joined: 10 Feb 2010, 18:52

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Lakshman »

Chitravina Ravikiran has further expanded on the above:

In the last 5 years alone:

At least 2 significant books (both of which are doing excellently) have been published and released in a major way.
Numerous audios and videos have been released (again doing very well)
Scores of concerts have been given in major cities and orgs.
Articles in major dailies like Sunday Magazine of The Hindu...
Workshop videos are being put up for downloads in www.acharyanet.com
Annual OVK Aradhanas have been initiated by sabhas such as Krishna Gana Sabha, Narada and in other cities like Bangalore, Mysore, Dallas and Minneapolis (much of which have been posted in rasikas and other forums).
Legends like Dr Vyjayantimala Bali, Trichur Ramachandran and others have learnt and presented several new songs in special concerts as also scores of other talented artistes.
Dance production like Divine Equations of Venkata Kavi was specially produced and presented by Hema Rajagopalan of Chicago in the Tyagaraja Festival last May.
Jaya TV Margazhi Mahotsavam program last year featured a special event on OVK which is available on YouTube...
Several people have started writing thesis on OVK for MA or PhD courses, (a few of which I have given inputs for)

If anything, the momentum has increased exponentially as scores of rare compositions have been shared in numerous ways!!!!

Singer_USA
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

Disciples of Needamangalam Shri.Krishnamurthy Bhagavather have preserved authentic versions of many valuable compositions by Shri.OVK.

I am in touch with one of his disciples and had a chance to listen to master pieces like Pranava mantra upadesham and several compositions on Lord Rama and Lord Anjaneya.

Though most people think Shri.OVK has mainly composed on Krishna, the fact is that he has composed several on Lord Subramanya; he has also composed Navavarana krithis. Shri.OVK has composed exclusive pieces on Radha.

Regards,
Seetha Chandrashekhar

Singer_USA
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

I would like to share another piece of information that will help verify the time period of Shri.OVK. In the first Saptaratna krithi Bhanamrta, in Nattai, the composer salutes to all great composers he has witnessed (or those who lived prior to his time) and the last two he had mentioned are Purandara Dasa and Tulasi dasa.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
Seetha Chandrashekhar

saiganesh
Posts: 45
Joined: 04 Feb 2010, 13:28

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by saiganesh »

I am posting this on behalf of my Guru Shri Shrikantham Nagendra Shastry,as he gave me all these details and permission to post this on this forum..


First of all i would like to thank everyone who have shown their interest in discussing this topic ,bearing one or two comments all other points are in right direction in answering the above queries of mine. It was good to see the response from shri lakshman on behalf of shri chitra veena ravikiran , which highlighted OVK's contribution to the music and musician's efforts to bring OVk's compositions into limelight . my heartiest congratulations to him :). But all these informations do not help us to conclude that OVK was a pre trinity composer , his period still remains questionable because of the various other aspects.

1. singer_USA has mentioned about ovk's reference to shri purandara dasa and tulasi dasa in his composition, but this point may not be sufficient enough to prove that he was a pre trinity composer.. many a times it so happens that composers or poets do not mention their contemporaries or composers of their recent past.. we can give numerous examples for the same.. eg.Dandi and bAmaha .. though bAmaha discuss about dandi's work he never mentions his name in his discussions.same has happened in case of shadakshari in kannada literature where in he follows the style of kumaravyasa but he never mentions his name. Saint tyagaraja himself has mentioned purandara and Ramadasa's names in his composition but not OVK's ...but it wont be acceptable to many if we take this as an evidence to conclude that OVK did not belong to a pre trinity era! so, its better to go in search of intrinsic evidences which exist in his own kritis.

2. I had mentioned about mistakes in OVK's navavaraNa kritis(regarding yoginis and avaranas) for which shri ravikiran has said that such mistakes can be seen in all composers and also he makes an interesting point that shri ovk was initiated to shri vidya marga by none other than Bhaskara raya , torch bearer in the field of shri vidya.(no proof or evidence has been given to support the same though).

I too belong to the same lineage of shri bhaskara raya makhindra.. my guru mahamahopadhyaya Dr.Ra Satyanarayana belongs to 8th generation of that parampara. (In descending order- SatyanandAnatha,Pundareekakshananda nAtha,Brahmavidyananda nAtha,subrahmanyananda natha,poorna shaktyamba,Vrushabhananda nantha,satyananda natha,bhaskara raya makhindra)
Bhaskara raya makhindra was well known for his profound knowledge about Yoginis.. Many would be knowing about his real life experience in KAshi where in he was challenged by scholars to give the meaning of 'chatushyashtikoTiyogini gana sevitayai ' for which he recited all yoginis names continuously for three months.. If anyone who is really interested to know about yogini gaNas has no option but to look forward to what shri bhaskara raya makhi says. had OVK been initiated to srividya by Bhaskara raya he wouldnt have done such major mistakes ,that too in relation with Yoginis.

Mahamahopadhyaya Dr.Ra Satyanarayana (Renowned musicologist and shri vidya pravartaka) has made following observations in his Shri Vidya shodashika -part 1.

a. He is of the that Shri OVK was a younger contemporary to shri muddu swamy deexitar and was influenced by deexitar's style very much
b. 5th and 6th chakras are interchanged in their order and charecteristics, same with 7th and 8th chakras.
c.sarva rakshakara chakra's adhi devata tripura maalini is been replaced by tripuravaasini of 4th chakra.

Bearing all these in mind ,what I feel is that had shri OVK got initiation from shri Bhaskara raya makhi ,he wouldn't have done such mistakes..

3.coming on to his compositions ,we can see many prayogas like nade bedha which was not prevailing in olden days and also traditional musicians like mudduswamy devaru,venkatesha devaru in mysore court used to refuse to sing trishra in chaturashra as they felt all those mathematics were recent developments in the field of music. compositions like himadri sute was also originally composed in rupakam and it can also be noticed that no pre trinity composer has done compositions in complex talas or nade bedhas which actually is a modern development.

also in olden days 'sankeerna' was not a jaati but was a combination of many such jAtis like pakshini,divya sankeerna,deshya sankeerna,deshya shuddha sankeerna etc..
Sankeerna got the value of 9 in very recent times. the fact that shri OVk has composed a kriti in sankeerNa maThyam (sadananda mayi,Hindolam) itself makes us to rethink about this pre-trinity tag attached to him.

though shri OVK's compositions are of great musical value but i still feel that there is no strong evidence to prove that he belongs to a pre trinity period and many points made above suggest that he actually belonged to a period after trinity..

looking forward to your responses

Shrikantham nagendra shastry

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

This really is a mind blowing discussion happening here for many reasons.
Thanks to srikanthamshastry sir for initiating such a nice thread. thanks for
the nice inputs by singer_USA as well.

There was always this common misconception that the era between purandara dasa and trinities
was a dark age for carnatic music (it is obviously established by now that it was not so).
But it was taken for granted that OVK was one of the major vaggeyakara who bridged the gap
between puradara dasa and trinities. It is interesting to find that there are twists to this story.

There is no doubt about the greatness or caliber of OVK, and everything possible must be
done to unearth his compositions and spread them. Kudos to Ravikiran sir, for the effort he
has put in on discovering and spreading the real OVK is trully amazing.

Now, the question remaining is about his era of living. I humbly request Chitravina Ravikiran sir to
comment upon this (I happened to hear a few of his lec-dems about OVK, also the article in hindu was
also enlightening). Dear lakshman, hope you'll take this to Ravikiran Sir.
If it can lead to a conclusion, that will be a great answer for the carnatic
society to keep record of...

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Hi all,
I mailed the discussion to Chitravina Ravikiran. I'm posting here the mail he sent as reply to me.

Hi Anoop,

Thanks a lot for sharing. I am in the midst of some heavy travelling/concerts over the next 2 weeks but will try and reply in greater detail as soon as I can.

For now, I can make a few points, which you may feel free to share with music lovers in rasikas.org:

1. Dating composers: When secondary references are scanty, the only way to date composers would be through internal evidence. The available evidence seems to point to the time period that has been asserted by OVK's brother's descendants including Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar. It is significant here to note that OVK has referred to/cited/saluted more historic personalities than any other Carnatic composer - the numbers are close to 100 at least. The last of this chronologically is either Tulasidasa (or Bhadrachala Ramadasa - which I am still studying). This by itself is not conclusive but nor is it inconsistent with what his family says. Therefore, unless there is conclusive evidence to the contrary, everyone will tend to go with this. (That said, I have no particular personal passion for OVK's - or any other composer's period - I am more fascinated by their output and quality.)

2. Gati bheda and other features: It is totally incorrect to presume that gati/nadai bheda is recent or complex talas were not handled before trinity. As I mentioned, the Trinity have eschewed many of these features, which actually made music more accessible. According to a publication of Saraswati Mahal Library of Tanjore, composers such as Chaturlaksham Krishnamachari and others have employed such features before trinity. In fact, there are fewer examples of gati bhedam, post trinity (except an odd song like Idadupadam (Khamach), Muruganai bhaji maneme (Jonpuri), by Papanasam Sivan. Even Madhyamakalas have shrunk in size and frequency (except for Dikshitar and Mysore Sadashiva Rao, to an extent). Therefore, it is more probable that OVK's style is a vanished style than a modern one, in my opinion.

3. Math in music: Again, it is totally erronous to state that this is recent. If anything, there were complex 108 tala systems including Simhanandana (128 units per cycle), Sharabhanandana (69 units) etc and we know of artistes like Shatkala Govinda Marar and others who had a reputation of having mastered such talas.

4. Influence of Dikshitar: I don't see the yardstick by which this conclusion has been drawn by Prof Satyanarayana sir, who is definitely a very respectable scholar. It would be tempting but dangerous to draw such conclusions by looking at a handful of songs because when one studies close to 300-400 pieces, it is difficult to see this influence. OVK's works are highly distinctive, his style very original and he seems to have followed a course that he charted for himself. As I mentioned, his musical style is definitely one of the 5 distinct, major styles in Carnatic music.

5. Navavaranas: I must confess that my scholarship is very limited in this area. But I have had discussions with a few experts and they have not found much cause for complaint. That said, there could be discrepancies from each school of worship and I would rather let scholars better qualified than me to discuss. But from what I have seen for myself,

(a) OVK clearly states in the 4th Avarana Tripuravasini and he does not state this in the 6th one in Hindolam.
(b) 5th chakra - sarvartha sadhaka - is mentioned in the 5th avarana in Balahamsa and the 6th, sarva rakshakara is also mentioned in the 6th avarana.
(c) Same for 7th and 8th.

In fact, OVK's Navavaranams contain a few other interesting references and details from Lalitopakhyana and other works, not seen in other similar avarana sets. To know more about this, I recommend readers to the scholarly treatise on OVK's Navavaranams by Shri S Sankaranarayanan (with Forewords by Semmangudi sir, Prof T S Parthasarathy and others), which could be available in Karnatic Music Book House, Chenai. I have brought out a book with the notations and lyrics in English.

Best regards,


Chitravina N Ravikiran

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by rshankar »

Fascinating discussion. Anoop and Lji, thank you for looping Sri Ravikiran into these discussions.

krsp
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Apr 2011, 12:17

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by krsp »

:clap:
Great discussion going on.
Hope this ends by bringing clarity to the understanding of all.

Best regards

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Here are a few more points which Vid. Ravikiran added. I'm posting them here...

Hi Anoop,

As I was going over this I remembered that going by OVK's own compositions, we can definitely infer that he was at least inspired (even if not exactly influenced) by the following:

Jayadeva whom he has eulogised in Padmavati ramanam (Purvikalyani), Valmiki, Vyasa, Shuka, Andal, Arunagirinathar (whose style he has employed in a couple of tiruppugazh type songs (though addressed to Lord Krishna).

Another fairly significant point that can be pursued by linguists is OVK's Sanskrit. His language - while erudite, is so fluent that it is almost conversational and not the routine descriptive, documentary style/ adjective-filled versification with varying degrees of skill and scholarship. The conversational, direct, colourful type of Sanskrit is fairly rare in Carnatic literature - those who look at Jayadeva's and Narayana Teertha's language will see the distinction with what is employed by most Carnatic composers. OVK's style of Sanskrit - though original in content and expression - seems less modern than many other Sanskrit composers.

(If I do think of other points, I will share with you whenever time permits).


Chitravina N Ravikiran

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Let me begin by restating the question of interest here: Is OVK a pre-trinity composer? I'm repeating the topic because most of the discussions going on was regarding the quality and quantity of work by OVK except for some prompt replies. If it is about the contribution of OVK to the karnataka music fraternity, no doubt, it is great.

After the long threads, these are the questions that still remain unanswered and as we are all part of the karnataka music fraternity, we are bound to give satisfactory answer to these.

1. Mentioning names of composers: It is true that OVK has mentioned names of only pre-trinity composers but that can't be stated as an evidence to prove he was a pre-trinity composer, for that matter, even tyagaraja has mentioned valmiki, vyasa etc. but hasn't paid tributes many of his predecessors. I have cited few other examples of such cases in my previous posts. Hence, mentioning the name assures that he lived after that particular person to whom he has paid tribute to, but not vice-versa. So, we need to look for alternate methods.

2. Gati-Bhedam, not a vanished practice: It is a common practice nowadays to sing varnam in tisra, manodharma swaras in tisra, khanda etc. and pallavi's in all possible gatis to exhibit the artists' prowess in talam, which clearly proves that the gati-bhedam is a very much prevailing practice. Also, there are evidences which claim that people in olden were against gati-bhedams and other mathematics as they thought it was deteriorating the aesthetics of pure music i.e., karnataka. Again in my previous posts, I have mentioned about a few vidwans of mysore court who were against the gati-bhedam. A tangential note about Shatkala govinda marar, it was just six speeds of chaturasra. Starting with ati-vilamba, he goes on to reach six speeds. There was no tisra or other gati-bhedams in it.

It should also be noted that there are no treatises which talk about gati-bhedams. The 175 talas are derived according to the modern permutation, which is dealt in detail in sangita swaraprastara sagaramu by nathamuni pandithar in early 20th century.

The trinities and other vaggeyakaras has used only suladi talas for their compositions. How can OVK use a tradition which came into existence latter or if he has come up with this pattern in olden days itself, why is it not mentioned in any of the treatises?

3. Sankirna Jathi is not 9: The classification of any raga or tala according to shastr is generally as follows- Shuddha, Sadharita/Salaga(Chayalaga), Sankirna. Here, Sankirna refers to a mixture having too many varieties like divya, manusha, deshya-shudha, mishra sankirna etc. Varieties of sankirna are dealt in detail by taladasaprana pradeepika and narahari chakravarthi's work.

Attributing the number 9 to sankirna is a very new and popular choice rather a mistake. The question still remaining is: Was OVK unaware of the divya, manusha and deshya laghus? How did he fix a number 9 which is a very modern choice?

4. Regarding Srividya: The earlier post says, "Experts have not found much cause for complaint." Does that mean they have some complaint? Anyways taking for granted that he is a follower of Bhaskara Raya, he should be following 'kaadi' marga (hence he can't follow a different school).
Now, among sri vidya followers only haadi margis leak out the bijaksharas, not kaadi and saadi. But OVK has mentioned bijakshara(like hreem, kleem etc.) in his navavarna kritis which is contradicting an earlier post claiming him to be a follower of Bhaskara Raya Makhindra.

5. Mentioning Lalitopakhyana: Lalitopakhyana is a upakhyana, not a tantra. Srividya upasakas rely up on tantra shastras only. In lalitopakhyana, we have some stories and stotras like lalitasahasranama which are common for every devotee and can be recited without deeksha.
Also, a Srividya upasaka will make his marga of upasana clear through his compositions. For eg: Dikshitar in his composition in mayamalavagaula, 'Sri nathaadi guruguho', clearly says 'kaadi mathanushtano' in charanam. (Ref: http://sahityam.net/wiki/Sri_Nathadi_Guru_Guha). In fact, in his very first composition he makes it clear about his guru and marga.
In case of OVK, we can say that a bhakta has done this but not an upasaka.

6. Conversational style of compositions: It has to be noted that the conversational style is a very common pattern adopted by many composers of both pre-trinity and post-trinity era including Sadashiva Brahmedra. In fact, it is only Dikshitar who followed a fixed pattern for his kritis as his was marga style. But in case of other composers, they have all tried the conversational style occasionally. Hence, there is no uniqueness in this style which can be attributed to OVK.

On a lighter note, how can somebody hide such a great collection of compositions and a great personality from the whole music fraternity for such a long period? A jasmine flower, how much ever it is hidden, will spread its fragrance. Similarly, I feel it is almost impossible to hide a great musician of OVK's caliber from the whole of the world for a long period of 200 or more years as it is claimed.

I would end this article by mentioning that the greatness of a person can never be decided by his age or period of work or even the amount of work, his compositions/works make him great. Hence, even if OVK was a composer recent period we should give him the same, if not more, respect and status.
"Pracheenamityeva nasadhusarvam
evam naveenamityeva nasadhusarvam"


Regards
Shreekantham Nagendra Shastry

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

This needs detailed responses but to be honest, most of the points will be clearer by either studying at least a few dozen compositions of the composer and/or reading my book 'Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi - Life and Contributions' where I have addressed numerous issues with nearly 230 illustrations. To make it easier for all, we have now made a soft copies available at www.acharyanet.com.

For now, let me just spotlight on a few issues...

1. Period: As of today, 1700-65 is the accepted period of OVK. The majority of the music world - including The Music Academy (see Journal of 1955) - has gone by this at this point. As I have mentioned earlier (a) the vaggeyakara's compositions only seem to bolster this period this period - at least broadly. These include (a) his use of Marathi which was more prominent then than later (b) his highly original style and references (c) his use of features like jati, gati-bhedams (which I will talk about later), (d) the possible influence of Bhagavata Mela.

Each of the points I made above may by itself not be sufficient 'proof'. However, taken in tandem, they present a strong case that support his family's records, which is very vital here indeed. It has to be noted that records by family/disciples are the main sources in the case of numerous people and even sketchy and incomplete ones have been accepted at face value in the case of most composers/other personalities by us - until conclusive proof is found to alter our perception. So far no proof to the contrary has been found by anyone with regard to Venkata Kavi, despite speculations from a distance in select quarters. When such proof is presented beyond all doubts, I am sure that everyone will be willing to stand corrected. That said, I re-iterate that to me, the period (even plus minus a few decades) is absolutely only a statistic in the context of actual works of a person - be it OVK, Tyagaraja, Edison or Einstein.
2. Mentioning of composers: Again, as said earlier, this is a significant indicator of the fact that OVK lived sometime after Tulasidasa. It is a fairly scientific approach to fix an approximate period, as any student of history will testify to, given that OVK has saluted the maximum number of historic personalities before his time. No other composer has mentioned as many.

3. Gati bhedam: I am sorry, I probably did not make it clear that I was talking about composers' handling of gati-bhedam. Except for snatches of tishra gati seen in composers like Papanasam Sivan's pieces like Idadu padam etc, we see very little of gati-bhedam in compositions from Trinity onwards. So, it is definitely more a vanished style of composing than a current one. As to musicians singing varnams - it is a totally different subject that is not contextual here. Same for individual artistes' preference or lack of it. That has been always there and will continue to be there. Similarly, if someone thinks it is deteriorating music etc, it is again, an opinion of an individual or some sections of people. In the context of OVK, they added some dazzling sections to his creations.

4. Origin of practices: The argument used by Shri Shastry about period of composers based on citations can be valid in this instance. Mention in a treatise only proves that a given practice could not have originated after that period. It does not prove the converse - that a given practice did not exist before it was mentioned somewhere. I have not seen a treatise that has exactly dated Sankeernam or gati bhedam. It must be noted that Mr Shastri's observation about Sankeerna holds good for Mishra too - now are we to assume that all composers who have used Mishra also committed a mistake?

5. Sanskrit style: It is easier to understand what I mean by reading the lyrics of a few dozen compositions of OVK. I will be happy to share those available with me. By the way, Sadashiva Brahmendra is supposed to have been pre-trinity, if one were to go by those like Prof Sambamurthy. It is also incorrect to assume that Dikshitar did not use direct speech style approach and only focussed on the introverted style. There are numerous compositions of his that use the sambodhana vibhakti.

6. Srividya: I will only limit myself to what I have seen and discussed with scholars I have been acquainted with. The references the Kamakshi Navavaranams are and the intricate details mentioned and described with great felicity by the composer right from the opening invocation - Shri Ganeshwara - to the last piece in Punnagavarali prove that his knowledge in this area was very high indeed. It would be most edifying to read Shri Sankaranarayanan's work on this subject.

I will leave it to scholars more qualified than me to debate about the differences in approaches of various people since that is not my forte. I never suggested anywhere that OVK followed Lalitopakhyanam for his Navavaranams. Anyone who reads the lyrics will be able to see that he was highly erudite and wove in details from many sources in his works including rare instances from Lalitopakhyanam. It is also incorrect to suggest that Dikshitar has not used key syllables in his compositions, One only needs to go as far as the mantra-beejakshara krti in Madhyamavati that he has composed (which is not often rendered in concerts).

7. How was he hidden: By all accounts available to us, he never sought publicity - in fact, he shunned it and preferred to only maintain his equation with God. His family and disciple circles are very selective and shy even today to share many of his works, as other leading vidwans will testify to. But as Mr Shastry says, one cannot hide it forever. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have evidences from the families of people like Shri Krishna Shastrigal of Mannargudi, (he was a noted musician and disciple of Raja Bhagavatar) that he had learnt OVK's compositions. Here, I quote the letter I received from his great grand daughter.

"I am a great grand daughter of Brahmasri Paruthiyur Krishna Sastri a great Rama Bhakta who attained Kapala Moksha. He was a pioneer of Hindu Religious Discourses, one of the earliest Harikatha Kalakshepa Pundits and a Pravachana Pithamaha. He was a carnatic musician too. His concerts were held between the years 1872-1910. Krishna Sastri was accompanied many times by famous Tirukkodikaval Krishna Iyer and Azhaga Nambi Pillai and was famous for his rendering of Arunachala Kavirayar, Oothukadu Venkata Subbaier's Kritis & Rama Kavi's Rama Ashtapathies.


Paruthiyur is in Thanjavur district (now Thiruvarur) & very close to Thiruvaiyaru. Krishna Sastri, revered as Paruthiyur Periyaval had received Namasankirtanam lessons and Mantropadesam from Maruthanallur Sadguru Swamigal at a very young age. He was the disciple of two great gurus Bramasri Sengalipuram Vaidhyanatha Diskshitar, Muthannaval and Rajamannargudi Mahamahopadhyaya Raju Sastri. It was at Raju Sastri gurukulam he had learnt Carnatic music & Oothukadu songs. I knew that Sri Raju Sastri helped popularize Oothukadu songs during those days."

This is one more pointer to the fact that these compositions were being practiced before Needamangalam's times.

Finally, I think it is time we sat back and soaked in on the brilliance of the works rather than get caught up in one or two speculative aspects and end up missing the forest for the trees... OVK's works are most enriching, enlightening, elevating and also entertaining for any student of melody, rhythm, lyrics or culture. As Semmangudi sir asserted, 'he is definitely on par with the trinity'.

Sincerely,


Chitravina N Ravikiran

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Here, I'm posting Vid. Ravikiran's reply to the post.

This needs detailed responses but to be honest, most of the points will be clearer by either studying at least a few dozen compositions of the composer and/or reading my book 'Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi - Life and Contributions' where I have addressed numerous issues with nearly 230 illustrations. To make it easier for all, we have now made a soft copies available at http://www.acharyanet.com.

For now, let me just spotlight on a few issues...

1. Period: As of today, 1700-65 is the accepted period of OVK. The majority of the music world - including The Music Academy (see Journal of 1955) - has gone by this at this point. As I have mentioned earlier (a) the vaggeyakara's compositions only seem to bolster this period this period - at least broadly. These include (a) his use of Marathi which was more prominent then than later (b) his highly original style and references (c) his use of features like jati, gati-bhedams (which I will talk about later), (d) the possible influence of Bhagavata Mela.

Each of the points I made above may by itself not be sufficient 'proof'. However, taken in tandem, they present a strong case that support his family's records, which is very vital here indeed. It has to be noted that records by family/disciples are the main sources in the case of numerous people and even sketchy and incomplete ones have been accepted at face value in the case of most composers/other personalities by us - until conclusive proof is found to alter our perception. So far no proof to the contrary has been found by anyone with regard to Venkata Kavi, despite speculations from a distance in select quarters. When such proof is presented beyond all doubts, I am sure that everyone will be willing to stand corrected. That said, I re-iterate that to me, the period (even plus minus a few decades) is absolutely only a statistic in the context of actual works of a person - be it OVK, Tyagaraja, Edison or Einstein.
2. Mentioning of composers: Again, as said earlier, this is a significant indicator of the fact that OVK lived sometime after Tulasidasa. It is a fairly scientific approach to fix an approximate period, as any student of history will testify to, given that OVK has saluted the maximum number of historic personalities before his time. No other composer has mentioned as many.

3. Gati bhedam: I am sorry, I probably did not make it clear that I was talking about composers' handling of gati-bhedam. Except for snatches of tishra gati seen in composers like Papanasam Sivan's pieces like Idadu padam etc, we see very little of gati-bhedam in compositions from Trinity onwards. So, it is definitely more a vanished style of composing than a current one. As to musicians singing varnams - it is a totally different subject that is not contextual here. Same for individual artistes' preference or lack of it. That has been always there and will continue to be there. Similarly, if someone thinks it is deteriorating music etc, it is again, an opinion of an individual or some sections of people. In the context of OVK, they added some dazzling sections to his creations.

4. Origin of practices: The argument used by Shri Shastry about period of composers based on citations can be valid in this instance. Mention in a treatise only proves that a given practice could not have originated after that period. It does not prove the converse - that a given practice did not exist before it was mentioned somewhere. I have not seen a treatise that has exactly dated Sankeernam or gati bhedam. It must be noted that Mr Shastri's observation about Sankeerna holds good for Mishra too - now are we to assume that all composers who have used Mishra also committed a mistake?

5. Sanskrit style: It is easier to understand what I mean by reading the lyrics of a few dozen compositions of OVK. I will be happy to share those available with me. By the way, Sadashiva Brahmendra is supposed to have been pre-trinity, if one were to go by those like Prof Sambamurthy. It is also incorrect to assume that Dikshitar did not use direct speech style approach and only focussed on the introverted style. There are numerous compositions of his that use the sambodhana vibhakti.

6. Srividya: I will only limit myself to what I have seen and discussed with scholars I have been acquainted with. The references the Kamakshi Navavaranams are and the intricate details mentioned and described with great felicity by the composer right from the opening invocation - Shri Ganeshwara - to the last piece in Punnagavarali prove that his knowledge in this area was very high indeed. It would be most edifying to read Shri Sankaranarayanan's work on this subject.

I will leave it to scholars more qualified than me to debate about the differences in approaches of various people since that is not my forte. I never suggested anywhere that OVK followed Lalitopakhyanam for his Navavaranams. Anyone who reads the lyrics will be able to see that he was highly erudite and wove in details from many sources in his works including rare instances from Lalitopakhyanam. It is also incorrect to suggest that Dikshitar has not used key syllables in his compositions, One only needs to go as far as the mantra-beejakshara krti in Madhyamavati that he has composed (which is not often rendered in concerts).

7. How was he hidden: By all accounts available to us, he never sought publicity - in fact, he shunned it and preferred to only maintain his equation with God. His family and disciple circles are very selective and shy even today to share many of his works, as other leading vidwans will testify to. But as Mr Shastry says, one cannot hide it forever. As I mentioned elsewhere, I have evidences from the families of people like Shri Krishna Shastrigal of Mannargudi, (he was a noted musician and disciple of Raja Bhagavatar) that he had learnt OVK's compositions. Here, I quote the letter I received from his great grand daughter.

"I am a great grand daughter of Brahmasri Paruthiyur Krishna Sastri a great Rama Bhakta who attained Kapala Moksha. He was a pioneer of Hindu Religious Discourses, one of the earliest Harikatha Kalakshepa Pundits and a Pravachana Pithamaha. He was a carnatic musician too. His concerts were held between the years 1872-1910. Krishna Sastri was accompanied many times by famous Tirukkodikaval Krishna Iyer and Azhaga Nambi Pillai and was famous for his rendering of Arunachala Kavirayar, Oothukadu Venkata Subbaier's Kritis & Rama Kavi's Rama Ashtapathies.


Paruthiyur is in Thanjavur district (now Thiruvarur) & very close to Thiruvaiyaru. Krishna Sastri, revered as Paruthiyur Periyaval had received Namasankirtanam lessons and Mantropadesam from Maruthanallur Sadguru Swamigal at a very young age. He was the disciple of two great gurus Bramasri Sengalipuram Vaidhyanatha Diskshitar, Muthannaval and Rajamannargudi Mahamahopadhyaya Raju Sastri. It was at Raju Sastri gurukulam he had learnt Carnatic music & Oothukadu songs. I knew that Sri Raju Sastri helped popularize Oothukadu songs during those days."

This is one more pointer to the fact that these compositions were being practiced before Needamangalam's times.

Finally, I think it is time we sat back and soaked in on the brilliance of the works rather than get caught up in one or two speculative aspects and end up missing the forest for the trees... OVK's works are most enriching, enlightening, elevating and also entertaining for any student of melody, rhythm, lyrics or culture. As Semmangudi sir asserted, 'he is definitely on par with the trinity'.

Sincerely,


Chitravina N Ravikiran

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

It is good see shri.ravikiran’s response on my previous post and felt compelled to post a reply. He agrees to the fact that this topic needs to be discussed in length however he hasn’t done it(of coarse due to many reasons) . Many of his answers to the questions raised above are partial and do not conclusively establish the claim that Shri OVK was a Pre trinity composer.

1.He mentions that as of today , the period of OVK) is accepted as somewhere between 1700-1760 and also mentions about academy journal where in which the above period is given. But still when there are many questions to be answered regarding his period which raises doubts regarding the correctness of it ,It will not be right on our part to label OVK as pre trinity until and unless the queries are answered conclusively. It will wise and logical to treat his period as ‘disputed’ till we arrive at a logical conclusion

2.As far as Shrividya concerned,Shri RavikiraN wrote that OVK was a disciple of Bhaskaraya makhindra about which I have conclusively proved that he cannot be a disciple of Bhaskara rayamakhindra , shri ravikiran has neither agreed up on this nor does he contests with ample evidence but, he just refrains from giving any further explanations which is very unfortunate because it was he who said that OVK was a disciple of Bhaskara raya makhindra .since he has mentioned it, now its upon him to disprove what i said (may be by consulting other vidwans or oupasakas) as it is an important point in this discussion .

3.He quotes shri semmangudi srinivasa iyer and says OVK is on par with Trinity .But it will not be wise on our part consider that as a basis to compare him with trinity (with all due respect to shri semmangudi ). Some recent composers hold titles like ‘abhinava tyagaraja’ etc which doesn’t mean that they are on par with Shri Tyagaraja. Tyagaraja was the one who created new ragas, who developed a great shishya parampara which in itself has many great composers who can be compared to OVK.( Walajapet Venkataramana Bhagavatar,Pallavi sheshaih,Mysore sadashiva rao to name a few).Like OVK he too was the one who led his life like a saint and never expected anything from anyone but he got his popularity through his works which was preserved by his Shishya parampara. Shyama shastry had great disciples like Anna swamy shastry,Subbaraya shastry , Deexitar parampara is very well known… ! credit of developing a tradition goes to Trinity .Likes of OVK cannot be compared to Trinity in many ways .

4. It must be noted that Mr Shastri's observation about Sankeerna holds good for Mishra too - now are we to assume that all composers who have used Mishra also committed a mistake?

No it does not .Unlike sankeerna (which got the value of 9 much recently) , mishra’s value i.e 7 can be seen in 15th century itself not only in treatises but also in kavyas. For ex. A kannada Poet Singiraja has given the value of 7 to Mishra in his work Singiraja purANa . you can very well go through that work to evaluate authenticity of my words .

5.It is said that ragas like Jayantashri were discovered by Sadguru tyagaraja . It is believed that ‘swararNava’ grantha was given to tyagaraja by Naradamuni. Parts of swararNava has been published in kannada ‘ganakala manjari’ which mentions about the above said point..It is said that he took such ragas from the book svararNava.Even OVK has composed in raga jayanta shri(Neerada sama neela Krishna).Does it mean to say that Narada gave svararnava to OVK before giving it to Tyagaraja?

6.Even very recent scholars ,musicologists like Abraham pandit, nathamuni pandit,Muttaih Bhagavatar etc never mention OVK’s name when this is the case how can one conclusively say that OVK was pre trinity composer!


Having said all these things I would like to request shri RavikiraN to reply to all these queries in detail so that we can arrive at a logical conclusion, partial answers take us nowhere .Until and unless doubts over the period of Shri OVK are cleared convincingly it would be appropriate to consider his period as ‘desputed’ or ‘undecided’ rather than labeling him as a Pre trinity composer .

Regards

Shreekantham Nagendra Shastry

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

1. Sri Ravi Kiran mentions that the period of OVK is accepted as somewhere between 1700-1760 and also mentions about academy journal where in which the above period is given. Let this be accepted till proved otherwise.

2. As far as Shrividya is concerned, religious practices and beliefs vary from place to place and from individual to individual. OVK's interpretation may be different from the interpretations of many others.

3. Comparation of OVK with the trinity or anyone else is irrelevant.

4. The discussion on Sankeerna, Mishra etc. are irrelevant to the dating.

5. OVK had used rare ragas earlier, while others had to 'discover' and use these subsequently.

6. The fact that a few recent scholars have not mentioned OVK's name does not mean anything - there may be many reasons for this. This has nothing to do with the question under reference.

Irrelevant questions do not serve any purpose. Though a few may harbour doubts over the period of Shri OVK, let us accept the fact that OVK was a pre trinity composer.

To quote Sri Chiravina Ravikiran: "I think it is time we sat back and soaked in on the brilliance of the works rather than get caught up in one or two speculative aspects and end up missing the forest for the trees..."

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

one mr pratyaksham bala[p.b] is saying irrelevent to what he is unable to answer.How can we siply acceptOVK/or somebodies time without any perfect documentation? If sri ravikiran/semmangudi/p.b says;why we,the music comunity should blindly accept OVK as pre-trinity composer without proper answers for the questions wich are undoubtedly saying OVK is not a pre-trinity composer.If p.b says'Let this be accepted till proved otherwise'.This can be also said like this.LET HIS PERIOD BE COSIDER AS DISPUTED ONE,TILL THE PERFECT PROOF FROM OTHER WISE. :lol: For srividya; i can clearly say OVK con't be a shishya of bhaskara raya;If p.b says rituals varies; how can it be vary from a guru to shishya? without knowing about srividya/or musicology any responsible scholar shouldnot say such things. :?: we can clearly say that OVKs contribution is not comparable one to trinity. Trinity's the one who are having somany pupils of OVKs calibure.ONE WHO IS NOT HAVING authentic date-time, shishya parampara [who have not done much, compared to trnities parampara], how can a real scholar do these type of comparisions. :lol: How can OVK use the ragas which were not existed in his time.Ragas like jayanthasree were used by thyagarajaswamy for the first time using SWARARNAVAM as the ref.we are having authentic informations about this. If someone like p.b says irrlelevent. truth willnot change. :o Discussion of sankeerna/ misra willbe necessary to evaluate the tala system of OVK.,which is clearly showing OVK as modern composer. 8) If somebody want to concentrate upon OVKs works;we dont have any objection. but without proving the facts, if someone imposes OVK as a pre-trinity composer &that too we should accept without questioning means,it will be dictators attitude;which will spoil our true musical history, for that each & every rasika should oppose these type of impositions.---------shreekantham nagendra shastry.

Enna_Solven
Posts: 827
Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

Sri Shastry,

This thread started as if you wanted to discuss the period of OVK in earnest. However, in spite of many counter arguments by Sri CNR, you have not conceded a single point. It now appears the only thing you ever wanted was to convince everyone else that OVK did not live before the trinity.

My simple question: The period after trinity is fairly well documented in terms when was somebody born, when he died, etc. If some oor-pEr-theriyAdavan like me (nondescript person) lived at that time, he would have disappeared without a trace. But a composer of such a caliber could not have lived in such a complete anonymity. It is more likely that we lost track of somebody from earlier centuries.

Also, one's worth is not measured in the number/quality of sishyAs he leaves behind. It is innate. The beauty of his Tamil compositions is unsurpassed.

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

Sri Enna - Solven,
In spite of many counter arguments ;the questions what ever rised by me dint get the answers properly.
if some oor - per - theriyadavan may live /go;but , how can we say his time, oor,per,that too exactly without having internal or external evidences.without evidences if i say something ; if u believe, means it will be a ignorance.
Not only the period of Post Trinity , we do have enough documentation for Pre Trinity also{for example Magradarshi Sesha Iyangar, Adi Appayya, etc.} The Tali Kote war { 1565 }which vanished not only our history but even our cultural history also. In spite of that, we are having good documentation about our Pre Trinity composers . So , your arguement doesnot stands here.One`s worth can be measured by his Pupils contribution also. Tradition works here.That is the greatness of our culture. In this case Thyagaraja Swamy`s rich tradition cannot be compared to OVK`s Tradition { if it has }.Please help the music world to find the truth ----------,
Shreekantham Nagendra Shastry

ShrutiLaya
Posts: 225
Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by ShrutiLaya »

Enna_Solven wrote: If some oor-pEr-theriyAdavan like me (nondescript person) lived at that time, he would have disappeared without a trace. But a composer of such a caliber could not have lived in such a complete anonymity.
This point has been bothering me too. How is it possible that there is no primary evidence? Note that I am completely ignorant about OVK history, so these are not rhetorical questions: How did we get any of his compositions - were they written down (like Annamacharya's copper plates; if so, these could be dated?) or were they passed down by oral tradition? Are there any local legends/inscriptions etc., in the place that he was supposed to have lived? Does he feature in any contemporaneous account at all ?

- Sreenadh

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

dear sreenadh,this is bothering me also.We are not getting primary resource of OVKs period beyond doubt,how can we say he is early even to trinity :!: some myths have been created to glorify him(he is a desciple of nonother than bhaskara raya,a2nd incornation of adi shankara etc),but ,we should break it &write the real history where ovk actually stands. -----s.nagendra shastry.

keerthi
Posts: 1309
Joined: 12 Oct 2008, 14:10

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by keerthi »

It is certainly interesting that krtis of OVK have been found in rAgas like umAbharanam,hamsanAdam, sarasvati? and jayantashri, which we hitherto thought, were given lakshya forms by tyAgarAja.

The oral tradition versions of his songs in mangalakaisika,rasamanjari, mAnji and even gauLa seem to follow slightly different lakshya from what is prevalent.

Other rAgas used by OVK, like say dvijAvanti, mALavi and kannaDagaula, have a tradition going back to seshayyangar or annammayya or kshEtrayya, and don't pose a problem.

It is again unusual that there is a preponderance of shanmukhapriya and simhEndramadhyama in his songs. He seems to have used other mela rAgas like sarasangi, chakravAka etc.

It may be a worthwhile effort to examine separately the clues we get from the lyrical, musical and other historical sources available, to try and understand what has happened in the OVK phenomenon.

While the lyrical and musical content of several songs attributed to OVK is undeniable, we shouldn't discourage historical investigations, even if we don't find them interesting ourselves.

CRama
Posts: 2939
Joined: 18 Nov 2009, 16:58

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by CRama »

Rasikas may refer to Sri.Ravikiran's views in post No 10. He has referred to the work on Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis by Shri.Sankaranarayanan. He is my best friend and I had mentioned to him about the ongoing discussion in the forum. He has forwarded a note on the subject and I am giving it below. For any further clarification you may contact him in the email id provided.

Dear Ramakrishnan:
You mentioned to me some time ago about the ongoing discussions in Rasikas.org on Uttukkadu Venkata Kavi’s Kamakshi Navavarana kritis and asked me to participate in it. I expressed my inability to do so because of paucity of time. Nevertheless, I thought of sending you a note on the subject which would throw some light on the topics discussed there, as I understood them from you.

A Note on Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis of Utttukkadu Venkata kavi.
It took me more than two years to write the book dealing with the sahitya of the Kamakshi Navavarana Kritis (KNK). On the advice of learned commentators and scholars I studied standard works on Srichakra, Lalita Sahasranama and Lalitopakhyana before preparing the first draft.
I have no doubt that Venkata Kavi (VK) must have been a Srividya Upasaka. This is the conclusion I arrived at after studying the KNK. One cannot, in my opinion, compose such sterling kritis, in terms of sahitya and Sangeeta, merely by possession of scholarship and erudition alone.
Did he live before the music trinity or after them? Scholars like TS Parthasarathi, Sulochana Pattabhi Raman and others have opined that he lived before the time of the trinity. As we are aware, Carnatic music became art music only from the time of the trinity; the three being its creators. The songs of composers who lived prior to their time belong to applied-cum-art music. The style and structure of the music as well as the sahitya of VK, in my opinion, indicate that he lived before the trinity. Others may disagree; no problem.
Now about the sahitya of the KNK: I had the good fortune to study them in detail. I did not attempt to analyze the music part of them – I am not competent for the job as I am not a musician but only a connoisseur.
In my book I have given the diagram of each of the nine avaranas as also the particulars of each of them. They comprise of the names of the Avarana, Chakra, Group of Yoginis, Manovritti, Chakreswari, Group of Saktis/Siddhis and Mudra Devatas (seven in all). VK has included the names of many of those particulars in the corresponding Kritis. Of the seven items, we find names of five items in each of the 1st, 3rd, 4th and 6th avarana kritis, names of four items in each of the 5th, 8th and 9th avarana kritis, names of three items in the 7th avarana kriti, and names of two items in the 2nd avarana kriti.
(There is an alternative kriti each for the 6th and 9th avaranas. Even though in my book I have studied them in detail, I do not propose to say anything about them in this note. We do not know why VK composed alternative songs for those two chakras, assuming that those two are also his. This is not the proper place to discuss them.)
VK has referred to two manta forms of the Goddess in the 4th avarana kriti (Yoga Yogeswari).
Only in the 6th avarana kriti (Sadanandamanyi – Hindola, Sankeerna Mathyam) that we find the mention of one of the three devatas of the 8th avarana, as also two of the eight vagdevis of the 7th avarana. A vaggeyakara of the stature of VK, who has decorated the Navavarana Kritis with so many particulars and details, could not have mentioned in a kriti the names of devatas/vagdevis of other avaranas due to what one may call ‘ignorance’. I would believe that our limited intellect could not gauge their relevance or significance of their being placed there. Why should he err only here? In any case, as I have stated in the Note on Srichakra in my book, the Srichakra as a whole is the abode of the Mother; the yoginis and saktis and mudra devatas stationed in the avaranas are her own emanations and their functions and powers are Hers but limited or conditioned by the stage or descent (level) of consciousness at which they are located. Hence the names of the parivara devatas are Her own names.
VK’s deep knowledge of the Srichakra mysticism has expressed itself at many places in the nine avarana kritis. In the 7th avarana kriti (Sakalaloka Nayike), VK describes the Goddess as Vangmayi as she is presiding over Vagdevis (Deities of Speech) in that avarana chakra. She is also Sabda Brahman – she is in form of the 51 varnas (phonemes of Sanskrit language) – from A to Ksha. The composer has picturesquely stated this concept in the opening line of the anupallavi (A ka cha ta ….).
Similarly, the ayudha devatas – goddess in charge of Devi’s weapons – are position in the 8th chakra, and Lalita presides over those devatas. Quite appropriately, the composer describes the Mother (in the 8th avarana kriti (Sankari Sri Rajarajeswari) as holding in her four hands a noose, a goad, a bow and a stalk/stem (Ankusa dhanuh ….) (For more information, see my book).
Among the other concepts of Srichakra worship that are mentioned in the kritis include: ‘Dasa Mudra’ (1st avarana kriti – Santatam aham seve), and ‘Gurumandala’ and the hierarchy of gurus consisting of three ‘oghas’ (9th avarana kriti – Natajana Kalpavalli).
A reader should have familiarity with the story of Bhandasura and his annihilation by Lalita as described in the Lalitopakhyana. Only then can one grasp the significance and import of some of the expressions in the kritis.
The Navavarana Kritis is preceded by a kriti on Ganesa (Sree Ganesvarah). In it VK declares in the pallavi of the song that He is pleased by Sreevidya Upanasa, as he composed this song as a prelude to the Navavarana compositions proper. The composer also refers to an incident in Lalita’s battle with Bhandasura; he beautifully describes how Ganesa helped Her by destroying the Vighna Yanta placed by Bhandasura’s brothers – Vishanga and Vishukra. In the 6th avarana kriti (Sadanandamayi), the composer indicates Bhandrasura’s coming into being. These are described in Lalitopakhyana.
Those who are really interested to know about KNK may go through my book. Lest this suggestion should be mistaken as a device to increase the sale of my book, I may state that I have no monetary gain by increase in sale of the book as I have long ago transferred my copyright in the book and distribution right to the distributors, namely, Karnatic Music Book Centre.
It is not my claim that I have done a ‘perfect’ job of my book. I wish I were endowed with greater scholarship and insight so that I could have done it better. However, in the absence of any other similar work, I feel happy that I was able to do what I have done.
sankarsahana@gmail.com

Somashekar
Posts: 4
Joined: 30 Apr 2011, 22:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Somashekar »

After reading through all the threads below, to accept OVK as a pretrinity composer I feel, following questions must be answered.
1. Right from Subbaramadeekshitar till the latest musicologists no one has ever referenced OVK's name in their works. One thought expressed in one of the threads is that his compositions would have been secretly gaurded. However the immediate question that comes up is "What was the reason for such secrecy"?

2. To use Sankeerna Jaathi (as Nine aksharaas) and Gati Bheda is a very modern trend. This trend is well documented in the treatises. OVK has used Sankeerna Jaathi (as Nine aksharaas) and Gati Bheda in his compositions. To substantiate this, is there any evidence in the form of written documents or acceptable treatises?

3. History usually considers Epigraphical evidences, Contemporary works in the form of Kaavyas(poetry) Or any Archiological documents(Can include from the Contemporary Kings) etc, as evidences to decide upon the time frame. There are sufficient such proofs available in cases of Purandaradasaru, Annamacharyaru and Divine Trinity. Why are such proofs not being cited or produced in this case?

4. From the music point of View, it is a well known fact that ragas like Saraswathi, Jayanthasri etc are created by Thyagarajaru keeping SWARARNAVA as reference. If OVK's time frame is considered to be Pre-Trinity, how could he have created compositions in these ragas, in the time frame where there is no reference of these ragas in any of the contemporary texts and literature in the whole of South India.

5. One thread says OVK is disciple of Bhaskararaya in Srividya. But other post quotes that OVK is not a lineage of Bhaskararaya and further lists out all the disciples of Bhaskararaya.
The person who quotes OVK to be a disciple of Bhaskararaya has to provide an authentic proof for all of us to think over.

6. If OVK was a cult of Srividya, was he from Kaadi, Haadi or Saadi? What was his Deekshanama? All the composers till date have used their Deekshanama in one way or the other in their compositions. This is not seen in this case.

Until all the above questions are answered with sufficient proofs it would be better to keep OVK's time frame as disputed. However all said and done, lets concentrate more on his Musical contributions which we feel are much greater than his time frame.

Chintalapalli Somashekar

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Rasikas,

When Lakshman ji and later on, Anoop brought this discussion to my attention and enquired whether I would be able to post responses here to clarify things, I had promised that I would do so personally as soon as I could take some time off. In the interim period, both of them were kind enough to post short responses from my side. I thank them for this.

There are several issues to be addressed here – some need detailed studies of the composer by the questioners themselves to be understood, as I have pointed out earlier. Whatever little I have been able to glean from my studies, I have endeavoured to share with the music world through concerts/articles/books/lectures/classes and courses. My book, “Oottukkadu Venkata Kavi – Life and Contributions” has covered most of the questions raised here and whatever updates/fresh information I recd after it was published (Aug 2007), I have continued to share.

These include my discussions with one of the descendants of OVK's brother's family (and a nephew of Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar), Mr Murthy, who was kind enough to provide me with fundamental information about his family records for close to 10 generations. This revealed a few significant facts

a. OVK had 5 brothers including Ramaswami Iyer and Krishna Iyer and his parents were SUBBU KUTTI IYER & VENKAMMA.
b. One of the sons of Ramaswami Iyer was Kattu Krishna Iyer who, according to musicologist Shri B M Sundaram, was in the Royal Court of King Amara Simha of Tanjore.
c. The family diety of OVK was Devi, even though his personal favourite was Lord Krishna. It is significant that he composed Kamakshi Navavaranams.

I have created an Excel document of the family tree based on information given to me during this discussion.

The next is reference to Bhaskara Raya. This was based on my discussions (in San Antonio) with Mr Venkat Subramanian, a descendant of a Minister in the Royal Court of King Serfoji.

"Based on the accounts of my Grand father Late Needamangalam Pattabhirama Iyer, His Grannd father's Grand father Ramaswamy Iyer was the minister with Serfoji Maharaja and big patron of music in the Needamangalam area. Ramaswamy Iyer was very close to OVK and his extenses family. According to my grand father OVK got diksha from the Shaktha tantric swamiji. The only swamiji that lived during that period was Bhaskara Raya. I therefore strongly believe the link between Bhaskara Raya and OVK."

Nevertheless, in all my articles, I have given this information only after qualifying it as OVK 'is believed to have' got his deeksha from Bhaskara Raya. This clearly means that the subject can be pursued further before definite statements are made. What is perhaps more significant is that the above mail proves that there were people of fairly impeccable credentials who were close to OVK during his times.

I will respond about a few other points in subsequent posts.

With regards, Ravikiran

Pratyaksham Bala
Posts: 4164
Joined: 21 May 2010, 16:57

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

chitravina ravikiran:
Thanks a lot for the clear, balanced and convincing write-up.

rshankar
Posts: 13754
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by rshankar »

Sri Ravikiran, first off, welcome to these discussions! It is our honor and privilege!
Second, I highly recommend your book to everyone who is even remotely inetersted in the composer, his music, or in the history of music. It is a very beautifully written book, where the diligent scholraship is so well hidden in easy flowing prose (rather like you music, if I may say so).
Please do continue to contribute when you find the time.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Ravikiran:
A warm welcome to our Forum. We all appreciate your taking time to clarify historical issues about OVK. His place in CM is assured due to your untiring efforts. It will be great if you share your CM knowledge (Not just on OVK) through this forum for the benefit of our readership. I was overwhelmed at the depth of Music displayed in the Ramayana program at the recent Cleveland Festival. You deserve to be categorized as a Premier Vaggeyakaraka of the present generation. It will be nice for the CM community if you can share the lyrics as well as the audio for our listening and learning pleasure. Regards...

mannari
Posts: 33
Joined: 04 May 2011, 14:08

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

Dear Ravikiran sir, I am following all the developments on this topic with keen interest. I have no doubt about the quality and quantum of hard work done for the betterment of Karnataka music by OVK in the past and yourself at present regarding exposing the compositions of OVK. So you need not convince anyone on the work done by you or OVK. The question to be answered precisely for the examples citing Kavyas and shasthras or music treatises refuting sankeerna (9) system during the period of OVK . I was hoping to get a correct answer in this regard. Secondly , we all beleave that the debutant ragas , proved to have been created by Thyagaraja Swamy, be it Saaramathi, Jayanthashree, Saraswathi etc., is from Naradamunis Swaraarnavam. So if at all any vaggeyakaras use these ragas for their compositions, it will have logical ending that their period is either 'during (as in the case of Maharaja Swathi Thirunal ) or after the trinity. So i humbly feel that if this topic beams more light on OVk's period rather than all the good research you have done on quality, quantity and various other aspects of OVK , which no one is questioning.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Thank you all! I will definitely share any little thing that I am conversant with as often as possible.

In this post, let us focus on Svararnava, Narada and Saint Tyagaraja.

Most leading musicologists have 'disproved' this myth several decades back in Chennai. I was frankly surprised when this point was brought up with the prefix of 'well known fact by all'. But before I responded, I wanted to double check my information, which I did with Prof S R Janakiraman, who is among the most venerated scholar-musician-musicologist today. I summarise this discussion below:

1. There is absolutely no connection between the mythological sage Narada and any treatises ascribed to 'Narada' by anybody.

2. Narada could have just been pen name used by any author.

3. There are around 4 to 5 works ascribed to such 'Naradas' in Indian musical literature.

(a) Sangeeta Makarandam – 7 & 9th century, which is definitely a work good enough for Sarangadeva (1203-1247) to quote extensively.

(b) Desi nrtta samudram – no one has seen copies of this manuscript but it has been referred to by Dr Raghavan

(c) Raga nirnaya - Prof SRJ could not provide much info on this off the cuff.

(d) Swararnava – which Prof SRJ literally described as a 'hoax'.

4. The mention given by Saint Tyagaraja in Swara raga sudharasa of the word 'svararnava' is no more than a literal word, according to leading scholars. They opine that it should be interpreted literally (as a reference to the ocean of notes/music) and no more.

5. However, a few scholars initially got confused by this reference because Tyagaraja also composed eulogies on Sage Narada, even to the extent of considering him as his manaseeka guru. This resulted in the 'myth' about Tyagaraja-Narada.

6. Expert opinion is that Tyagaraja had probable access to another treatise, Sangraha Choodamani – authored by Govinda. Even this, in the words of Dr Raghavan, is an 'ill composed book'. Its main virtue is the new names/sequence for the 72 melas with scales (and reference to their original names) and a few ragas that Tyagaraja has also employed. Tyagaraja's relative and disciple, Manambuchavadi Venkata Subbaier possessed this book (or some parts of it). Copies were also supposed to have been in Saraswati Mahal Library.

7. The author doesn't specify the period in which he wrote this. But if Tyagaraja used it as a reference, the book could have been compiled a few decades before. There is a fair possibility that composers prior could have had access to it too, since it was in a great Library.

Notwithstanding all this, my take on this has been explained in my book under the title, "Ragas handled by OVK". My contentions are:

(a) Logically speaking, "a treatise only tells us that a raga/concept could not have originated after a given period, not exactly when it could have or did". For instance, if a book cites a raga, we know for sure that the raga could not have been discovered after that period, in case a latter day musician/composer claims it to be his/her creation. In an era when such things were not copyrighted nor information flow was as it is today, no scholar can say with certainty when a specific raga / concept was originated/who discovered it.

(b) Secondly, a treatise normally documents known and accepted practices (as known to the author at the time of writing). Therefore, mention of certain ragas as ragas known at a given time implies in most cases that these ragas were in vogue for a few decades, unless the author of the treatise claims credit for 'discovering' them.

(c) There is absolutely no documentary evidence to state that Tyagaraja 'invented' or 'created' ragas. In fact, a recent article even went to the extent of suggesting that many of his krtis have been 'modified' by the Tachur Brothers.

Finally, all good musicologists and scholars of the caliber of Prof SRJ / Dr Raghavan have cautioned everyone to not place too much only on books and treatises. They are not words of God but only those of human beings prone to natural errors. A treatise is ultimately only as good as the author and treatises cover a wide range of the good, bad and ugly.

More to come...!

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

vid ravikiran has accepted ovk- Bhaskararaya is his belief only. The then, bhaskararaya was not only there,even Lolla lakshmidhara's parampara was also there;but we cont add any one to whom, we know ; i have already given the list of bhasurananda/bhaskararaya's shishyas.There, ovk finds no place.Here i repeat,if some composer is a srividya deekshita means, at least he will tell his deekshanama &his guru.400 compositions of ovk never reveals this. :!: By this much discussion we can come to a conclusion about one thing,that, ovk is not a shishya of bhaskararaya;even we doubt his srividya deeksha.still some one is believing means, it is a emotional one,not a fact. I know narada-tyagaraja may be a myth;but swararnavam is not a myth.Dr.Raghavan himself has edited this ; it has been printed in kannada;It is for sri S.R.J'S kind perusal. If S.R.J is telling about Govinda's corrupted text, that was followed by tyagaraja means,we can really find some ragas for the first time in GOVINDA'S.we are using this 'ill composed book' & its raga's names even in ovk :!: IN this fact also we can easily say ovk is after Govinda.Actually Govindas work is a telugu version of muddu venkatamakhi.It refers SAMPOORNA MELAS than asampoorna melas., which is now a very popular one ( almost 99% musicians are using,including ravikiran,S.R.J etc.,) than venkatamakhi paddathi.

Singer_USA
Posts: 38
Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

Shri. Shastry,

As a student of music, I would like to know more about the krithis you have studied. You have mentioned the following in the first post.

2.His compositions are filled with modern sancharas and especially parallels which actually is a modern approach in composing kritis which cannot be seen in trinity period.

Could you please shed some light on what compositions use modern sancharas? Are there speicific sangathis in any composition that makes you think, they are modern.

How do you classify a sanchara or approach as modern or ancient?

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

usually i don't want to discuss with whom having pen name instead of their real names,because they may say something &disappears.It will be a spit & Run policy. They are with their respective names means some how we can catch them;In spite of that,I will say as a humble student of karnataka music as below. In gamakams so many verieties are there. my revered guru sri, Akella mallikarjuna sharmagaru,classifies these as1.shastreeya gamaka 2. lalitha gamaka;in some ovks compositions,for ex.swagatam krishna, it gives a filmy sangathis than classical.parallels like gaga sarigapa garisada;riri padasari sasadapa.....are exists in alaapa,not in usual kritis.we dont find such sangathis in others compositions.you may asume it,as ovks speciality,but not; here ear is the real judge.(hearing lot of classical music) confirms this factor.I can demonstrate these than writing;I want to say one thing here,i have done some research on ovks compositions,& its chandas, shabda prayoga,yathi, prasa, vadi etc..,&same will be shared here in future.thanking you all, Srikantham nagendra shastry.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

I will address a few more points raised by Mr Shastri from post #1.
Venkata Kavi has composed in complex taLas like Khanda Dhruvam, Sankeerna Matyam, Mishra Ata and so on which was not a prevailing trend or practice in trinity period and also changes in naDe or gati was not popular practice in trinity period.
It was very much a prevailing practice in earlier times. What we now consider complex was probably routine then.

(a) Saraswati Mahal Library publication 'Shabdam ennum Sorkattukkal' (1997) has established that composers were proficient in tala, much prior to 1750s. It talks about colourful features and sophisticated talas in compositions with examples from works of Chaturlaksham Krishnamachari (a forerunner of Annamacharya), Muttuttandavar, Arunagirinathar, Ottakkoottar and others before trinity.

(b) One of the compositions mentioned in this book is in Sankeerna triputa.

(c) There are scores of Tiruppugazh of Arunagirinathar that not only covers the five jatis widely used today but also in several other complex meters.

(d) Shyama Shastri's guru, Sangeeta Swami advised him to listen to Pachimiriam Adiappaiah acknowledged to have been the creator of the first varnam. And his choice was Khanda Ata, not Adi...

(e) Shyama Shastri himself handled talas such as Khanda Jhampa, Chaturashra Ata and Tishra Mathya.
'sangeeta sampradaya pradarshini' of subbarama deexitar does not mention shri OVK's name in its first chapter of ' vaggeyakara charitam' which covers almost all eminent composers of pre and post trinity period starting from saranga deva to patnam subrahmanya Iyer. Does it mean to say that sri subbarama deexitar was unaware of the name OVK
Yes, just as he was unaware of Annamacharya. The SSP is a magnum opus indeed but it is not exhaustive. It has not provided key details like periods of most composers. It has provided some incorrect details like Tyagaraja composed 'Narada gana lola' on Narada. (The song is entirely in praise of Lord Rama, though the opening word is Narada.)

Going further, if SSP were to be considered as gospel, what would be the status of the 250-odd compositions of Muttuswami Dikshitar's songs which are not in it? The same questions can be raised. Was Subbarama Dikshitar not aware of his own ancenstor's compositions? Did he think them unfit to include? I am not casting aspersions on SSP or Subbarama Dikshitar but only trying to show that questions cannot be settled by blindly accepting treatises, in a selective fashion.
But a close look into the history and to his compositions draw our attention to a different inference all together.
Can Mr Shastri tell rasikas how close a look he has had? And at how many compositions of OVK? This will help everyone understand his inference better.

I have maintained that unless a significant portion of a composer's works are not studied, one cannot get the right perspectives or arrive at the right conclusions. Here is an example: If a scholar were to look at Shree shukra bhagavantam of Dikshitar in isolation, he could jump to a conslusion that a composer who arbitrarily changed vibhaktis and shifted from indirect speech to direct speech cannot be considered even average. However, only after a study of at least 50/100 masterpieces of Dikshitar would (s)he even feel a sense of awe and humility when approaching even this piece and wonder at the possible reasons for a mega brain like Dikshitar's to have come up with a Shree shukra. The same holds good for OVK too. As he himself says in aDimuDi kANAda (husEni),

innAr innapaDi enRe terinda pin eDuttu sholvadE nIti
ennAle shonnadalla inda pazhamozhi ettanaiyO pEr shonna shEdi
His compositions are filled with modern sancharas and especially parallels which actually is a modern approach in composing kritis which cannot be seen in trinity period.
On the surface of it, this sounds like a scholarly, objective assertion, based on deep study. The word 'filled' suggests an image of each composition having a few such modern sancharas. Can Mr Shastri give an insight into what are 'modern sancharas' and provide at least one example per song for about 50% of OVK's works to establish his contention? This is nothing personal - but anyone airing conclusions or value assessments must do so with facts and examples.

I have given significant points which suggests that the family records (or those of descendants of Ramaswami Iyer etc) are not far off the mark about OVK's period - even after accounting for 15-20% of errors. Let us recap on some of the features:

1. Jatis: The usage of this almost vanished from the time of trinity (Among trinity, only MD used in Anandanatana prakasham and Shree Mahaganapati). OVK has used them in quite a few compositions which make his music instantly suitable for dance as well.

2. Gati bhedams: Never used by trinity and very sparingly by a few composers afterwards.

3. Sophisticated talas: Even though a few talas were employed by trinity and others such as Mysore Sadashiva Rao, the percentage came down heavily.

4. Madhyamakalas: This dazzling feature has become more of a punctuation mark used at the end of sections, if at all employed. OVK has used it skillfully and colourfully.

In short, four challenging features were eliminated / reduced in proportion by Trinity and most who followed - compositions became much simpler and therefore more accessible to more artistes, students and rasikas. I have contended that making music more accessible is probably the greatest contribution of the trinity.

Another feature seen in OVK but not in latter composers is the use of Marathi, which was prevalent in the Tanjore belt but gradually diminished in importance towards the latter stages of 18th century.

Against this backdrop, where is the 'modern' facet of OVK's compositions?
OVK has composed NavAvaraNa kritis , but a close look into these kritis reveal certain mistakes
This point has been admirably clarified by Shri Sankaranarayanan in post 25 and the example of Dikshitar's Shree shukra augments it.
b. 5th and 6th chakras are interchanged in their order and charecteristics, same with 7th and 8th chakras.
c.sarva rakshakara chakra's adhi devata tripura maalini is been replaced by tripuravaasini of 4th chakra.
Conclusively disproved in post # 10, point 5.
It is true that OVK has mentioned names of only pre-trinity composers but that can't be stated as an evidence ...
The accepted manner of assessing any internal evidence with respect to period is to study works and look for historical references and as Rangaramanuja Ayyangar notes 'OVK's references to composers such as Jayadeva is of historical significance'. When a composer mentions more than 100 personalities, it is very logical to see who was the last historically, to establish at least a ballpark figure/use as a cross reference.
vid ravikiran has accepted ovk- Bhaskararaya is his belief only.
Mr Shastri has understood the exact opposite of what is meant by the qualified usage - 'believed to have been'.

Post #17:
It is believed that ‘swararNava’ grantha was given to tyagaraja by Naradamuni. Does it mean to say that Narada gave svararnava to OVK before giving it to Tyagaraja?


Post #32: It was established conclusively that Narada muni-Tyagaraja connection was a myth. This had been one of the points repeatedly mentioned by Mr Shastri and a few others.

Post #33:
I know narada-tyagaraja may be a myth;
If Mr Shastri knew this, he has to explain why he deliberately used a myth to query a 'fact' about OVK and mislead a few new rasikas who echoed him almost verbatim (post #26/31)?

Before I sign off, let me clarify an incorrect point I made in post #32. Prof SRJ never said that Swararnava the treatise was a hoax. Only its tie up to a celestial Narada-Tyagaraja.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Just after my reply, I saw Mr Shastri's post about 'lalita' gamakas and one sangati as one of his pointers to OVK's modern-ness. His contention is subjective and incorrect - an artiste can make even a Mukhari filmy or a Kadanakutoohala classical. Similarly, even an 'Alaippayude' can be rendered with high degree of classicism. A composer cannot be judged on that as 'modern'. His point about parallel phrases not seen in other composers can be disproved with numerous examples such as Darini telusu konti (which revels in such usages). But whether Tyagaraja himself composed such sangatis or they were latter day insertions would be a matter of debate.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

The posting no 34 of Singetr USA has almost disarmed the initiator of this thread already and the matter appeared closed .But even after that you have spent so much of your time to make such detailed irrefutable clarifications on all aspects of this issue including the most elementary and this shows your systematic research mind and your commitment to the thesis. The total of all your postings would run in substance to almost four times more than those made out by the anti thesis. I am amazed by your patience and restraint.
I have carefully read your book on O V K . Somehow there are persons who want to believe that carnatic music came to Tamil Nadu only after Thyagaraja and through Telegu. In O V K we have a giant who is in no way inferior to any other composer and whose compositions are to a great extent in Tamil in a startling variety of ragas and thalas. Unfortunately Tamil nadu music world itself was not conscious of this treasure and did not give due recognition and exposure to this composer(until recently after your unearthing work ) probably because he might have belonged to the bhagavathar tradition ( Sampradaya bhajanai) which would account for the presence of jathis and until recently music in bhajanai and music in dance were considered as lesser music.
Your book is a cornerstone in revealing this PRE- Thyagaraja composer to the music world.

srikanthamshastry
Posts: 23
Joined: 10 Mar 2011, 13:33

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by srikanthamshastry »

now also i am saying,narada-tyagaraja may be a myth;but not swararnava;it has been printed by raghavan.please read that.Ithink pon bhairavi has not studied tyagarajaswamy,being a tamilian if she feels proud, we have no objection; but she is worried about tyagarajas telugu origion,she can do aradhana of ovk than tyagaraja.I criticise her prejudised thinking.I request mr. ravikiran to change the way of presenting swagatam krishna in filmy manner. now a days some of ovks compositions are in this line.regarding bhaskara raya;after proving also you are not accepting means it is a prejudistic one;nothing else; For sankeerna we may get ref. but sankeernas value was not fixed as 9. if this is done by ovk means ,he must be the first who destroyed the other verieties of sankeerna,namely, divyasankeerna, misra sankeerna,desya sankeerna etc..,even now i say 9 is not only the value of sankeerna.all should think ,my time is as precious as ravikiran's. In this orguement each & everybodies time is imp.I want to show the chandobhangam, yathibhangam, prasabhangam in ovks compositions one by one,It will start from his navaavarana krutis. I want the readers to glance that krutis, so in the days to come,I can explain easily.

ShrutiLaya
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Joined: 14 Sep 2008, 01:15

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by ShrutiLaya »

This is a fascinating thread, and I would hate to see it degenerate into OVK vs. Thyagaraja or Tamil vs. Telugu match - I enjoy all of these greatly. I also fail to see what light xxxxbhangams would shed on the original question, viz. the time period of OVK.

Sri. Ravikiran, can I ask a couple of basic questions - not as argument, but because I really would like to know the answers. Is there an authoritative source of OVK's compositions? Did he or any of his direct disciples write them down, or did some later treatise compile the then known compositions, or have they come to us purely by oral tradition? What is the earliest reference to OVK in any written work - textbook/ biography/ krithi whatever - that you have been able to discover?

Also, can you give the full citation for your book, and where it can be purchased?

- Sreenadh

ShrutiLaya
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by ShrutiLaya »

I don't know what the ultimate source is (perhaps even Sri.Ravi Kiran's book?) but there is an interesting 19 page writeup at http://www.rramakrishnan.com/Articles/M ... hukadu.pdf which appears to answer several of my basic questions ..

- Sreenadh

mannari
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mannari »

dear sirs, It is a well known fact that incidents relating to famous persons , particularly those who become idols for many in any field , let alone in the field of music, are highlighted or written in such a way that it is either unbelievable or scientifically possible ( for example Jayadeva getting his amputated limbs back or a Swine leading Narayana Thirtha to Varahapuri to cure his stomach ailment etc., ) But these legends do not discredit the fantastic work done by them. They are i think, done mainly by hardcore fans as emotional ambulations to that particular personality to boost up the image . While this is not necessary , legends and tales of miracles do not stop. Narada's swaraarnava is also one such case. As mr Shasthri rightly points out Swaraanava 's existence is true but Narada's propriety in Swaraarnava should only be clarified by Narada himself! ( may be by appearing in the dream of a third umpire ). Questioning the validity of any thing inherited from time to time as rich heritage should not be done. If one questions the authenticity of sage Valmikhi, who wrote our sacred epic, the legendary crow narrating the story to ... come along the line in the vicinity of that subject. Can anyone declare in the name of research or by a quote of a person refute this ? then whole epic stands null and void. There should not have been millions of temples all over the world. If OVK's compositions contains raagas mentioned in swaraarnava or sankeerna jaathi thaala or modern style of writing then his period is after the period of trinities as simple as that . Then why the argument and counter argument as if it is a personal feud to accept something logically ? But trust me , I am learning a lot of interesting things on how so many things are involved and the amazing knowledge of person arguing logically

Enna_Solven
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Joined: 18 Jan 2008, 02:45

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

mannari wrote: If OVK's compositions contains raagas mentioned in swaraarnava or sankeerna jaathi thaala or modern style of writing then his period is after the period of trinities as simple as that . Then why the argument and counter argument as if it is a personal feud to accept something logically ? But trust me , I am learning a lot of interesting things on how so many things are involved and the amazing knowledge of person arguing logically
A simple yes or no answer does not seem to be available for the question being discussed. I do not see Sri Ravikiran's detailed and non-emotional replies as the kind of "personal feud" you refer to. If you read the pdf file that ShrutiLaya refers to (this seems to be written by Sri Ravikiran), you will see a very reasonable analysis. I have pasted that part for your convenience here.
CluesToPeriod
Needamangalam Krishnamurthy Bhagavatar has mentioned in page 14 of his long notebook that certain references he saw in the Saraswati Mahal library, Tanjore help him place Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi's period somewhere in the 1600-1700s. In this one page summary, he mentions Tanjore Maratha kings and some other leading personalities connected to Venkata Kavi but he has not mentioned clearly the books he referred to before arriving at this conclusion. He talks of Kattau Krishna Iyer, brother of Venkata Kavi being a court musician of Pratapasimha, whose period as ruler of Tanjore is generally accepted as 1741-1764. But Krishnamoorthy Bhagavatar, mentions (in his notes, found in a long notebook, Page 14) that there was another Pratapasimha much before this, something that needs to be verified.
While there is little reason to doubt the honesty and integrity of Venkata Kavi's descendants as to their ancestor's life history, it is a fact that sufficient supporting evidence from other sources is scarce. In such a situation, the internal evidence available in his works gains considerable prominence. A quick look at some of these.
ReferenceToPersonalities
Definitely, Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi lived after Tulasidasa, who is the last of the greats mentioned in his compositions Maybe, he lived after Bhadrachala Ramadasa too, if the two compositions narrating the story of Ramadasa (seen in Krishnmurthy Bhagavatar's long notebook) can conclusively be proved to be his.The style of at least one of them surely seems to point to that.
Venkata Kavi has mentioned scores of great people in his works including many rare ones like Bhurishena, Pippilada and Utanga. He has also composed whole pieces devoted to some of them like Jayadeva, Shuka, Valmiki, the sixty three nayanmars etc. These reflect his deep knowledge about them and his profound humility. The fact that his references end with Tulasidasa (or Ramadasa at most) is a telling pointer to his period.He must have lived before the Trinity or been a contemporary at most.
Style
Oothukkadu Venkata Kavi's style is quite unique and does not bear much resemblance to the Trinity or latter day composers.Even the tunes are quite original which is a very strong clue in itself.Attempts are also being made to look for clues in the Sanskrit or Tamil compositions for linguistic usages that may help one place a finger on the period with reasonable accuracy
MarathiCompositions
Venkata Kavi has tried his hand on Marathi in a few of his compositions.The corrupted version of that language in his pieces points to a period when that language was reasonably popular in the Tanjore area in this form. This was during the rule of the Maratha kings like Ekoji, Shaji, Tulajaji etc. It is interesting to note
that there are few other Marathi compositions in the Carnatic music repertoire.
All said and done, there is little doubt that Venkata Kavi's works place him in a league of his own.

Enna_Solven
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

srikanthamshastry wrote:usually i don't want to discuss with whom having pen name instead of their real names,because they may say something &disappears.It will be a spit & Run policy. They are with their respective names means some how we can catch them;
Unfortunately, you should not have entered into any discussion in this internet forum that is rasikas.org. I see mostly pen names, including mine. The moderators on the forum too do not use their real names but they have not run away. People have posted several thousand times without running away. It is premature for you to write this on your 13th post. Anyway, even if I write here something bad using my real name, you can't catch me: First part is the Lord of the seven hills, second part is the Lord of one of the famous temples in Thanjavur district and my last name is the clan much maligned by the Dravida parties of Tamil Nadu. There must be thousands of people in TN with that name. :!:

Also, I have not seen any measured reply from you for Sri Ravikiran's responses. Please compare the style of your posts 33, 35 and 39 vs. your original post. Also you have started abusing OVK himself by saying he destroyed stuff (your post 39), whom you graciously referred to as Shri OVK in the first post.

What I take away from this thread so far:
- Sri Ravikiran does not categorically say that OVK lived before the trinity, but that the available data point that way.

- You say you want to find out the real period but do not pay heed to any argument which points the period to before trinity. I repeat what I said in an earlier post: There is no point in entering any inquiry with a foregone conclusion. That is equivalent to our tragicomical parliamentary commissions. You call Sri Ravikiran prejudiced. His 'prejudice' seems to be based on logical analysis but I don't see a coherent reply from you other than "so in the days to come,I can explain easily." and "&same will be shared here in future".

However, I must thank you. If you had not raised this I would not have had a chance to read this nice thread.

I do want to know more about the usage of the 'later period' ragas by OVK though.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

A well-disciplined system of any thing forms a tradition. In the course of evolution either to make it easier or more flexible to a common man or even to induct some new things into it to get easy fame or funds some modifications intrude later even though that is also called a ‘tradition’ but with some intruded indiscipline. Just, if we analyse the available material, for example:

(a) in respect of Saint Thyagaraja, all his compositions are said to have come out in a trance while performing Unchavritti and his disciples following him scribbled them and kept intact. All his compositions are addressed to the Almighty only and they all are very strictly in the very commonly used Adi (Chaturashra-gati or Trisra-gati), Rupakam, Khanda-chapu, Mishra-chapu, Deshadi, Madhyadi, Jhampa-talas but not in any other varieties of Talas.

(b) later, when it came to Muthuswamy Dikshitar, he himself composed them among which one composition, Venkateshwara Yettappa Mashrayeham-Megharanjani-Rupakam, is composed in praise of a human-being and his compositions are extended to other Talas also but not beyond Sapta-talas.

(c) later, again when it came to Shyama Shastry, he also composed his compositions addressing only the Almighty but in other Talas also but not beyond Sapta-talas even though he used only one rhythmical-form calling it Sharabhanandanam, which should not be rendered at all according to the well-established norms of Prastara of Tala. Both the contestants, either Shyama shastry or Bobbili Kesavayya, are not aware of the intricacies of Talaprastara but, accordingly and surprisingly, Shayama Shastry thought that he defeated Bobbili Kesavayya and the poor Bobbili Kesavayya also throught that he was defeated. However, either knowingly or un-knowlingly, Shyama Shastry used only one rhythmical-form which should not be rendered.

(d) later, again when it came to Arunagirinathar, he composed many of his compositions in various rhythmical-forms (or prosodical forms) but our musicians started using them to sing along with ‘Talas’
very conveniently forgetting the rules and restrictions of the ten elements of ‘Tala’. But, I think this is the intruded indipline of our musicians only but not of Arunagirinathar, the Great.

(e) later, again when it came to the present period, along with all the previous diluted deeds in decreasing order, now, people are also singing different gatis for each Kriya in a single cycle of Tala without minding even the norms of Mridanga where the duration of any Kriya of a Tala will never be elongated or shortened according to the Gati played and

now, thus, we have this kind of evolution and we are compelled to call it tradition in spite of all the intruded indiscipline. amsharma

Enna_Solven
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Enna_Solven »

(d) later, again when it came to Arunagirinathar,
akellaji, please don't start another period issue here. :) Arunagirinathar was much before the trinity, not after.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear Enna Solven, Chi. Shrikantham Nagendra Shastry is my disciple and as a responsible teacher (but not cheater) I always try to guide him properly. Long ago, having experienced some unhappy and unpleasant dialogues with an irrational and ill-cultured person in the sub-thread, AMS Easy Methods 2007-CD in the main thread, Music School, I have myself cautioned my disciple, Chi. Shastry to be careful with the persons using anonymous names just like all the people naturally using doors and locks to be safe from burglars. Everybody is not a burglar but everybody remains cautious with burglars. I think that is natural but not premature. amsharma

Singer_USA
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Joined: 21 Jul 2008, 09:26

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Singer_USA »

Dear Shastry,
It is good that you have started this discussion, we get to learn about various points of view. I have actually signed my name earlier in Post #6 and #7, so I thought I don't need to repeat it.

When I learn a composition, I usually don't worry about the time period in which the composer lived in. Each composers work stands out. I know that Shri.Ravikiran has compared the compositions of Dikshitar to Coconut and that of OVKs to Mangoes. Mangoes can be enjoyed with or without the skin, whereas it takes some amount of effort to break the coconut before one can enjoy it. But neither is inferior to other.

Pratyaksham Bala
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Pratyaksham Bala »

srikanthamshastry wrote:... Ithink pon bhairavi has not studied tyagarajaswamy ...
Your thinking is wrong.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... she is worried about tyagarajas telugu origion ...
Again you are wrong. Ponbhairavi is Shri Ponbhairavi. And he is not worried about Shri Tyagabrahmam's telugu origin. Why should anyone worry about the origin of Shri Tyagabrahmam who was born and brought up in Tamil Nadu?

Please check his post once again.

In fact many in Tamil Nadu are proud that a Maratha King could graciously gift a bit of Tamil land to Shri Tyagabrahmam's father, a Telugu Brahmin, and that Shri Tyagabrahmam could live in that place for a long time before he decided to sell it.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... I criticise her prejudised thinking.
mm... ... It is not difficult to follow forum ethics, and it is never too late.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... In this orguement each & everybodies time is imp...
Yes.
srikanthamshastry wrote:... I want to show the chandobhangam, yathibhangam, prasabhangam in ovks compositions one by one,It will start from his navaavarana krutis. I want the readers to glance that krutis, so in the days to come,I can explain easily.
You are welcome. This is a forum of Rasikas who anxiously look forward to meaningful discussions.

msakella
Posts: 2127
Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear Enna_Solven, To tell the fact, I am neither worried about their period nor to make it another issue but about the person who started diluting things in the absence of proper knowledge. Of course, I very well know that this kind of dilution started right from Sharngadeva himself and successfully followed by many others in one way or the other till date. amsharma

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