Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Carnatic composers (other than performing vidwans)
punnagavrali1024
Posts: 3
Joined: 12 May 2011, 08:55

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by punnagavrali1024 »

"The post trinity period is very very close to ours and many people born in that period come tantalizingly close to our own generation. Patnam Subramania Iyer lived between 1845 and 1902 while Maha Vaidyanatha Sivan between 1844 and 1893.
Uday sir provides impeccable evidence supporting OVK's pretrinity standing, through pointing out a series of very logical chronological progressions and eras of various musicians. I find it quite humorous that Shastry sir and Co as well as Anoop ji have conveniently ignored the points made by Uday sir. In debate this is known as selective arguing; we discount the points that make us unhappy (because they prove us wrong and we cannot offer a LOGICAL counter argument) or that we are ignorant about and vehemently hold onto one or two points (however illogical) till the bitter end...even after the discussion is overwelmingly done and people are ready to move on!
Regarding Polur Govindakavi's work, he gives a mathematical possibility of number nine along with many other values for sankirna. But as OVK was not known to any of the vaggeyakaras or musicians of that period, it is safe to assume that he has not come across the work of Polur Govindakavi (coz any acquaintance with any vidwan of that period would've easily made a person like OVK popular). Then how did he fix upon the value of sankirna as nine?
This point is quite vague to me. WHY does OVK have to PERSONALLY meet Sri Govindakavi??? Why is it
safe to assume
anything??? AND how do we know OVK was not known to other musicians in THAT time?? Secondly it may be easier to show that two people did meet at a certain point in time but Anoop ji stresses that Govindakavi did NOT meet OVK (which is harder to prove) and even better, does not offer much evidence for the statement other than a fleeting and illogical statement. It is obvious that Sri Govindakavi wrote a BOOK and not a thesis. Thus he was not inventing/researching the concept of sankeerna. Thus, if sankeerna is being published in a book it can be said that it must have been a widely known concept even in that time and that Sri Govindakavi need not meet OVK to personally let him know that something called Sankeerna existed.

Regarding OVK's navavarnams, anyone who denounces such magnificent jewels as
any one of his other krithis
are seriously wounding their own ethos. There are times when I have teared up just looking at the beautiful words and passages in these navavarnam masterpieces, let alone listening to them being rendered. Learning atleast ONE of these navavarna krithis will surely change your perspective. They are by no means ordinary. For example look at Sakalaloka Nayike in the ragam Arabhi OVK states in the madhyama kalam passage in the charanam, "Bhuvana Prasiddha HreemkAra KAmeswara Bheeja Mantra Lole" No ordinary/"just another" krithi would have such stunning passages....

I find it hilarious that from the beginning of the discussion to almost 150 posts later, the same points have been clutched onto in desperation; Bhaskaraya's lineage and sankeerna. I encourage people who hold onto these points to let go and reassess their reasoning and logic and not post for the sake of posting :grin: .

anoopnm007
Posts: 13
Joined: 19 Jun 2010, 09:48

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by anoopnm007 »

Dear punnagavarali,

i never said about a meeting of ovk and govindakavi. Wat i said was tat the probability of ovk comin across gk's work is low as he is not documented to have known to ANY musicians of that time. Also considering the genius of ovk somebody would've documented had they knew him.
You should also note that the bhaskara raya's question is still left unanswered...

Dear hamsaa, with due respect to you and your knowledge, please don't shout out your ignorance or try to exploit it. Books like ssp are available online or hard copies are also available for purchase at karnatik music book centre or music academy. Please refer those yourself. Your questions are like challenging a person to write down all the words in an oxford dicrionary starting with 'a'. I'm really sorry i had to put it this way. But i can help u to get a copy of both swararnava and ssp if required.

Regards
Anoop Krishnan

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Respected Akella garu,

My namaskarams to you. I still remember a vocal concert of mine when I was around 6/7 (was it in Khammam?) where you encouraged me by accompanying me. If I also remember right, you mesmerised me even before the concert by moving your ears!

This post is merely intended to respond to some of the points you have made with respect to tala, dasha pranas, sankeerna etc and not intended to change your views on the subject, which I am sure you have arrived at after years of study and contemplation. As you definitely know, me and my guru and father, Shri Chitravina Narasimhan, hold you in high esteem. However, I thought that rasikas here need to be made aware of different perspectives of such deep subjects and then evolve their own opinions in the process. Sir, I am also sure that what I say may sound elementary to you, but let me start off with some fundamental facts, in order to facilitate other followers.
Tala is the name of a musical-metre which, in turn, has ten-kinds of disciplines
Tala is fundamentally nothing but (a) clapping of hands or against one's arm or (b) musical time or measure. (Monier Williams Dictionary lists numerous other meanings which are not contextual to music).
‘Tala-dasha-pranas’
1. These are just attributes of a tala that have been classified for purposes of study and understanding. This is because, the architects of Indian music realized that the concept of tala can never be fully explained - it must be realized. However dasha pranas are an attempt to describe the manifestation of talas.

2. They are clearly latter-day developments than the concept of tala. Dasha prana classification and codification was based on a study of various talas and an assessment of common properties. In other words, tala can include but need not be limited by dasha pranas.

3. Therefore, anga talas, chanda talas or chapu talas will all very much come under the 'legal' definition of talas.
Among the five basic Jaatis, Trisra (3), Chaturashra (4), Khanda (5), Mishra (7) and Sankeerna (9) the Chaturashra (4) is the only even
Strictly speaking, there are only two basic jatis - chaturashra (4) and tishra (3). This is true for many other systems of world music too. In India, we took it further.

Mishra (mixture of the two fundamentals) = 4+3.
Khanda (split) = 4+3+3 / 2
Sankeerna (integration) = 4+5
Even among these four odds while Sankeerna (9) is the only divisible one (by ‘3’) all others, Trisra (3), Khanda (5) and Mishra (7) are indivisible.
This is only a feature - not a deficiency or ineligibility, even after one takes prastara into consideration.
That is why this Sankeerna has been omitted even in the basic Alankaras
No one can say why sankeerna has been omitted in Alankaras. It could have simply been considered too challenging for students in their initial stages.
none in the Trinity did use it anywhere
This again, is no reflection on Sankeerna!! It is more a reflection of a general trend from late 1700s, as recent studies reveal. We all now know that the composed music definitely became much simpler in terms of rhythm, form and variety of sections, speeds, gatis etc within it. Several features (gati-bhedams, complex talas, jatis, faster sections etc) were taken out or used sparingly by composers starting from the trinity. Saint Tyagaraja almost never used them, MD used them moderately while SS employed them more than these two and soon earned a reputation for laya-wizardry.

To summarise, not using sankeernam is neither a credit to the composers, nor a discredit to the jati. It could be as simple as a personal choice.

In the bigger picture, one must always remember that books written in a particular period merely observed, documented or commented upon trends upto that period, to the best knowledge of the author. To elevate them to the stature of 'rule layers for perpetuity' would not merely negate progress made by brilliant minds over subsequent centuries but also dangerously distort perspectives about these prime movers of our great system.

For eg: If one were to argue that "Bharata never mentioned ragas in Natya Shastra. Therefore Matanga 'diluted' music by proposing the raga concept a few centuries later", where would our great system be? All developments are not necessarily desirable but that does not mean that every development is a dilution either...

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, Extremely glad to hear from you, dear. Very glad to know that you still remember our concert on 13-07-1975 in Kalaparishat Hall at Khammam along with me and Chi. Ella when Shri P.V.R.K.Prasad, a friend of your father and the District Collector arranged it there. Really I am surprised of your remembering capacity of moving even my ears, which is the quality of an animal (Janthulakshana), of course.

It is very true that your father and me are very affectionate to each other since many decades and, that is why I do not forget to speak to your father whenever I go over to Chennai. Moreover, being his very talented sons, I always wish you both Mahapaanditya in your respecative field and Sarvajanaadarana by the grace of the Almighty.

After having served for 35 long years as a teacher I, only after deep introspection after retirement, came to know that it is far easier to become a Top-grade Violinist but not an efficient teacher at all even though many are unable to believe me. Thus, at this old age, I have very strong convictions of my own which are very helpful to me amazingly but inconvenient to others naturally.

As you wrote, no doubt, the division of Tala-dasha-pranas, clearly, is a latter-day development than the concept of Tala. To tell the truth, even though the division of Talas-dasha-pranas has been made later all these ten-clements are funished in detail in many of our treatises. But, most unfortunately, the last 10th element, Prastara, which is the origin for all the rhythmical forms of the universe and which is 100 times more than all the remaining nine elements put together, has never been brought out by any author of any period or in any language within the reach of the aspirant mostly shutting many of the doors of this Tala-chapter. That is why, while there are around 400 Shlokas, in total, in the Taladhyaya of Sangita Ratnakara around 100 Shlokas are devoted for Prastara only. In this manner, I can bring out umpteen examples in bringing out the importance and greatness of Prastara. But, unfortunately, one cannot understand all these details unless he/she himself/herself goes deep into it. And many are also running away from learning this very highly complex topic which swallowed my precious life of four decades.

The person who goes deep into Prastara only can understand the limits of it like the ‘legal or illegal’ definitions but not others at all. At this old age, I cannot discuss such things at length in this thread.

I cannot totally agree with your opinion that books written in a particular period are merely observed, documented or commented upon trends up to that period, to the best knowledge of the author.

Creating or bringing out novel things should not always be taken as brilliance while many people, nowadays, are doing so for easy money and fame. There are so many facets even in respect of either development or dilution which could only be discussed at length in the presence of knowledgeable people. amsharma

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

anoopnm007 wrote: Then how did he fix upon the value of sankirna as nine?...
Wat i said was tat the probability of ovk comin across gk's work is low as he is not documented to have known to ANY musicians of that time.
This doesn't make sense. I repeat the point made by punnagavarali - it is not necessary to be aware of a documented source of an idea or term for somebody to have been aware of it. Even in the rigorous and jealously guarded world of scientific authorship often the first publication of an idea is not necessarily the origination of it. Example, the "Darwin-Wallace" theory of evolution and the "Maxwell-Hertz-Heaviside" Equations of Electromagnetism :). These things are infinitely more casual and fuzzy in the world of Carnatic "history" - Did Bharata specify musical intervals one fine day and then everybody started using them ??!! Did Maatanga originate the idea of a rAga one fine day and then everybody started using the idea ??!!

Again, we know of very few musicians of any era, so it is equally possible that OVK met some obscure musician of his era and got hold of the gk's work and both this fact and OVK's existence itself drowned in historical obscurity. In fact OVK needn't have know ANY musician to have found a source for the work ! This line of reasoning, i.e., "somebody would have known something or somebody and written about it somewhere" gets more difficult in orders of magnitude the further back in history you recede. This is why it is much easier to investigate, as I was trying to imply with my earlier post, the possibilty of a much more recent date for OVK - specifically the post-trinity era - and then decide if it is plausible or not. The trail of innumerable sources from that era hasn't yet grown cold in the present times - there are still people living today who have met and talked to people who lived in that era (i.e., early to late 19th century). For example, my father-in-law (1931-2010) has talked to his grandfather (1866-1943). Incidentally, I would think the very fact that OVK is NOT mentioned in SSP as indicative of the fact that he was NOT contemporaneous with either Subbarama Dikshitar (1839-1910) or the generation before him, i.e., the trinity generation.

mahavishnu
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Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 21:56

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by mahavishnu »

Uday, well said. Your analogy to the diffusion of scientific ideas/paradigms is very apt.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

A decade ago when the OVK controversy was raging in Sangeetham site there were claims that 'OVK' was an elaborate hoax perpetrated by NKB who was fobbing off his own compositions under a mythical legendary figure. The book of poems uncovered by RK was claimed to be a forgery by NKB. It goes to the credit of RK that he fought off these slurs and duly established and restored OVK to his place of honour in CM history. I am just mentioninng this just for historical completeness!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Anoop,

Thanks for your gratuitous advice! I appreciate it!!
Most of us following this thread know that Sri Ravikiran has answered all issues raised in this thread - some of them more than once. He has done so with indisputable examples, counter-examples, references as well as logic and sense. I am sure even you have found Uday's reasoning and logic beyond dispute about how OVK could never have been modern too, but quite conveniently ignored it.
BR has not been answered...
Check again the sequence of events. The answering has not been from Shastri/your end!!

(a) RK has always quoted the BR-OVK with a rider of ‘believed to have’ as against a definite statement.

(b) Sri RK shared his source of information - a descendant of a minister in Tanjore who was well known to OVK. (Whether it 'proves' BR-OVK or not, it shoots out of the park the 'modern and recent' theories proposed in the first post.)

(c) But Shastri brought other points of reference to question this.

(d) But these are not conclusive since anyone who is into Srividya knows that schools merge/change practices over years.

(e) Despite all that, if X says, I am the sole authority on BR’s disciple list, X must prove it.

(f) Can anyone prove that he has the entire disciples list for BR’s 100?

(g) BR or not, OVK's navavaranams are great, period

SSP issue:
SSP mentions Chinnayya in all the copies I have seen. So, I wondered if you had another special copy of it!! It does not refer to Arunagirinathar either. It also does not mention Swathi Tirunal – it only says Kulashekara Perumal. As Sri Ravikiran says, SSP is great but it is not bible.
Swararnava-Thyagaraja connection:
Why should I get copies? If X is caught selling a myth like that to support his anti-OVK theory, the onus is on X to accept that he was wrong or prove he was right. Or at least he knows what he is talking about.

uday_shankar
Posts: 1467
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:37

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

hamsaa wrote:reasoning and logic beyond dispute
That's not true Hamsaa. There is always room for dispute in any speculative reasoning. But that's not the point. I quote from Shri Ravikiran's earlier post:
Each of the points I made above may by itself not be sufficient 'proof'. However, taken in tandem, they present a strong case that support his family's records, which is very vital here indeed. It has to be noted that records by family/disciples are the main sources in the case of numerous people and even sketchy and incomplete ones have been accepted at face value in the case of most composers/other personalities by us - until conclusive proof is found to alter our perception. So far no proof to the contrary has been found by anyone with regard to Venkata Kavi, despite speculations from a distance in select quarters. When such proof is presented beyond all doubts, I am sure that everyone will be willing to stand corrected. That said, I re-iterate that to me, the period (even plus minus a few decades) is absolutely only a statistic in the context of actual works of a person - be it OVK, Tyagaraja, Edison or Einstein.
Most people posting here, me included, are just armchair theorists. Chitravina Ravikiran, in the midst of all his other activities, has actually done the practical fieldwork of meeting the descendants/family of OVK, poring over the manuscripts, etc.. Why is it so hard for people to believe the family's account? Particularly since it has been vetted by Shri Ravikiran. Nobody has any vested interest in perpetrating a hoax. Perhaps it is an unfortunate fact, that some people with a lot of time and a dark brooding mindset are susceptible to conspiracy theories. Remember, nothing is holier than the Truth, and the Truth can never hurt us. Get over the darkness and look at everything in the light of pure reason and logic. AND TRUST PEOPLE, FOR GOD'S SAKE. There is neither a character nor a competence problem.

Knowing Chitravina Ravikiran as I do, he of all people has the least vested interest in affixing any date to OVK. His sole concern in this matter is propagating this musical phenomenon called OVK to the general public. I remember very well having a conversation with him during his heady early days of the OVK discovery when he was poring over the manuscripts awestruck and stunned. I likened him to G H Hardy circa 1913 examining a manuscript that arrived in the mail from India, containing strange squiggles and formulas he had never seen in his life. I could imagine Ravikiran the musical genius remarking to himself about those OVK manuscripts as Hardy remarked about the Ramanujan manuscripts "they must be true, because, if they were not true, no one would have the imagination to invent them" ! Sometimes it takes a genius to recognize another.

Ponbhairavi
Posts: 1075
Joined: 13 Feb 2007, 08:05

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

An interesting observation:
Those who claim that OVK lived after the Trinity also proclaim that his compositions have no real merit(Full of mistakes befitting a "modern" composer) though they may not know enough tamil to understand even the meaning of OVK's compositions let alone Arunagirinathar's.Therefore it is clear that they have strong prejudiced opinion that good music is only telegu and it came to tamil nadu only with Thyagaraja. Prejudiced people can hardly be convinced: you can take a horse to water but not make it drink-- You can wake up a sleeping person but not one who does not want to get up-- The rabbit i caught has only 3 legs. But one good result is that the thousands of viewers who have been following these notes would have come to know where truth is thanks to RK's patient, unshakable logical authoritative arguments. I would quote 2 lines of an ovk's composition which appears in another thread about its value


innAr innapaDi enrE terinda pin eDuttu sholvadenrO nIti
ennAlE sholvadalla indap-pazhamozhi ettanaiyO pEr shonna shEdi

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

uday_shankar wrote: .....
I could imagine Ravikiran the musical genius remarking to himself about those OVK manuscripts as Hardy remarked about the Ramanujan manuscripts "they must be true, because, if they were not true, no one would have the imagination to invent them" ! Sometimes it takes a genius to recognize another.
Very picturesque Uday and aptly stated.
As Ponbhairavi states the 'proof of the pudding is in its taste'... OVK should be assessed on his own merits.

chitravina ravikiran
Posts: 216
Joined: 28 Apr 2011, 10:30

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Akella garu,
our concert on 13-07-1975 in Kalaparishat Hall at Khammam along with me and Chi. Ella
Your memory for details is phenomenal! I had no idea about the exact date and was also vague if it was Ella Venkateshwara Rao garu who was on the mrdangam then. I do remember that I was not in great form that day and it was surely not musically memorable for me!!
the last 10th element, Prastara, which is the origin for all the rhythmical forms of the universe
I agree with you completely, prastara (permutation) is a very important part of rhythm. As you rightly say, not many people know about this or use it extensively. Even seasoned vidwans tend to focus more on vistara. Luckily my father, being a consummate musician and guru, had given me an introduction to the fascinating subject of dasha pranas even before he had put me on the stage as a vocalist. So, at least I have a working knowledge of it, even though it may take decades to go very deep into it, like you have done. Prastara is definitely a very interesting aspect which must be showcased in concerts even in small measures by every artiste.
At this old age, I cannot discuss such things at length in this thread.
I will sure get a copy of your book upon my return to Chennai and go through it.
Creating or bringing out novel things should not always be taken as brilliance while many people, nowadays, are doing so for easy money and fame.
I agree wholeheartedly. I also feel that novelty must not be used as an avenue by escapists who wish to shy away from the rigours of traditional and the classical. We all see hundreds of sub-standard compositions by composers who are devoid of even basic rules of tense, verb and grammar, leave alone yati, prasa, chanda, alankara or raga-tala lakshana (which reminds one of Tyagaraja's Vararagalayagnulu in Chenchukambodhi). (I have sometimes felt that workshops/seminars could be conducted on the basic approaches to composing, like they do in the West.)

My only difference with you is: we must not club composers of divinely inspired genius like OVK, Tyagaraja, Shyama Shastri etc in the other league. The scholarship, intellect and skills of these people was exponentially higher than average musicians/composers and they would have had sound reasons for extending the boundaries of our music... As my guru Sangita Kalanidhi Brinda garu used to remark, "I know my grammar as well as anybody. But yet, I do not change certain things because I believe that the great composers/musicians would have had a valid reason for a particular usage" (periyavA anda prayOgam vechurinda, adukku edO kAraNam irukkaNum). In other words, I feel that classification under dilution or development is a based on the quality of a person, his reasons and context.

I have only two doubts and if possible, please help readers understand those better:

1. Isn't it true that when we talk of prastara, we talk of the prastara of the number and this has nothing to do with a laghu count? Am I right in stating that prastara is not on a jati/laghu but more in the rhythmic sub-divisions within the laghu (or on any given number of units?) We count the fingers only one way in Carnatic music whether the laghu is 4, 3, 7, 5 or 9.

2. Even though 9 is divisible by 3, aren't there numerous options to do prastara using 9, without bringing 3 into the picture at all? Therefore, prastara should be possible irrespective of a number being odd/even, prime or not?

Thank you and regards...

msakella
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Joined: 30 Sep 2006, 21:16

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi Ravikiran dear,

Extremely happy to go through your post. There is nothing great in just referring my ‘Diary of concerts’ and give the details of our concert (Rs.180/- inclusive of travel expenses - just forgot to mention in my last post).

You may not remember your concert in that younger age but you did it extremely well (if you take it jovially and don’t laugh at me - you did everything just like a monkey-kid trained by her master in doing acrobatics of his own).
(I have sometimes felt that workshops/seminars could be conducted on the basic approaches to composing, like they do in the West.)
If you feel only sometimes I always feel that periodical workshops and seminars only could minimise the indicipline of our musicians and music-teachers (if you don’t laugh at me - magic-teachers or music-cheaters).
My only difference with you is: we must not club composers of divinely inspired genius like OVK, Tyagaraja, Shyama Shastri etc in the other league. The scholarship, intellect and skills of these people was exponentially higher than average musicians/composers and they would have had sound reasons for extending the boundaries of our music
Up to some extent only I can agree with you but not fully. Unfortunately, my past experience of spending four decades of my precious life on the extensive research of Prastara, even sacrificing much of my artist career, will not at all allow me to agree with you in this particular aspect. Many of our elders were telling me not to abuse our ancestors for the hardship we are facing now. In one way, it may be true if it is applied to many other general problems. But mine is entirely different with all others and I can’t even speak of my toil leave alone writing it in lengthy sentences. Even though I can’t write it, now, in lengthy sentences I shall give you only one example. If I tell 3 X 3 = 9 and either OVK or Thyagaraja or Shyamashastry or even Lord Venkateshwara tells 3 X 3 = 8 what do you say? Please answer ( I shall explain my plight in person when we next meet).

Had you gone deep into Prastara you would not have asked me these two questions. However, I shall certainly answer these two questions.

1.You are absolutely in-correct. Prastara has everything to do with the laghu count. Prastara is absolutely mathematics being full of precision and the basic element of the system of the Tala. But, please make a very important note, one can understand this only after arriving at the opposite shore of the sea.

2.Yes, even though 9 is divisible by 3, we will get only one prastara using 9 and many more prastaras even without bringing 3 into picture. One must mind that Prastara is inclusive of all numbers and, at the same time, also devoid of all numbers while making the process of permutation.

But, in respect of Sankeernam, I have a point. You are telling that the scholarship, intellect and skills of the composers of divinely inspired genius were exponentially higher than average musicians/composers and they would have had sound reasons for extending the boundaries of our music. Yes, me too agree with you in this respect. But, in respect of Sankeernam, according to our Indian tradition, which are named after Sankaram or Sankeernam must be avoided in our religion. I guess, that is why, while ‘7’ was named after Mishram only ‘9’ was named after Sankeernam and was also avoided not only right from the primary Alankaras to be fed to our kids but also even by Muthuswamy Dikshitar who had composed in all the seven Soolaadi-talas. Thus, does utilising Sankeernam not come under going beyond the traditional boundaries established by the great Trinity of our music? Even if you treat OVK as a pre-trinity composer we all must thank the Trinity for having not followed OVK in this respect but wantonly avoided Sankeernam maintaining our tradition. amsharma
Last edited by msakella on 24 May 2011, 07:29, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
Posts: 11498
Joined: 02 Feb 2010, 22:36

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Quoting from
Sangita Darpanam of Catura Damodara..

brAhmaNashcaturasraH syAt tisraH kShatriya Eva ca
khaNDOvaishyastathAshUdraH mishrOgnEyO vicakShaNaiH |
sankIrNajAtissamkIrNaH kathitAstALavEdibhiH || (701)


'jAti', caste-wise catusram is brahmin, tisram is kShatriya, khaNDam is vaishya, mishram is shUdra and
sankIrNam is mixed-caste (?fifth caste or caNDALa).
Hence it is only natural for the caste-conscious Trinty to avoid sankIrNam whereas OVK, himself almost an outcaste had no hesitation using it freely..

musicfan_4201
Posts: 199
Joined: 03 Feb 2010, 08:34

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by musicfan_4201 »

cmlover wrote:Quoting from
Sangita Darpanam of Catura Damodara..

brAhmaNashcaturasraH syAt tisraH kShatriya Eva ca
khaNDOvaishyastathAshUdraH mishrOgnEyO vicakShaNaiH |
sankIrNajAtissamkIrNaH kathitAstALavEdibhiH || (701)


'jAti', caste-wise catusram is brahmin, tisram is kShatriya, khaNDam is vaishya, mishram is shUdra and
sankIrNam is mixed-caste (?fifth caste or caNDALa).
Hence it is only natural for the caste-conscious Trinty to avoid sankIrNam whereas OVK, himself almost an outcaste had no hesitation using it freely..
There goes CML with his anti-Trinity crusade !!!

hamsaa
Posts: 33
Joined: 06 May 2011, 21:32

Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

The person who goes deep into Prastara only can understand the limits of it like the ‘legal or illegal’ definitions
1. Prastara may appear like a big subject to many musicians but to de-mystify it for those with a math background, it is nothing but permutation.

2. Any number can be permuted as well as the others .

3. Therefore to say that sankeerna is a disadvantage/illegal in prastara does not seem consistent with logic.

uday_shankar
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

uday_shankar wrote:OVK manuscripts
It has been pointed out to me that the term "manuscript" has a specific meaning in the context of Indic/Indological research, typically writings (on palm leaf or other media) attributable to original sources or something close, etc... In this instance, I meant to say "notebooks and papers" in the possession of the descendants/family of OVK.

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Does OVK refer to AruNAcala Kavi?
He belonged to the same time period...but his songs were tuned much later.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

1. Prastara may appear like a big subject to many musicians but to de-mystify it for those with a math background, it is nothing but permutation.
To de-mystify Prastara for those with a math background if it is nothing but permutation why none had solved this element and brought out all the latent secrets of it within the reach of our aspirants since 12th century? Most of my extensive research on Prastara, started from 1963, was made even without the computer or even calculator which were not available in those days.. Even now, I can answer any questions pertaining to Nashta or Uddishta or Kalita with the help of the figures and tables of my book, Indian Genius in Talaprastara only but without utilising either the computer or even the calculator. Can you do the same in this manner now?
2. Any number can be permuted as well as the others .
Of course, yes. I didn’t say anything against about this in my post.
3. Therefore to say that sankeerna is a disadvantage/illegal in prastara does not seem consistent with logic.
Even in respect of Sankeerna also I didn’t say anything, dear. Would you be kind enough to verify them again, dear. amsharma

ShrutiLaya
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by ShrutiLaya »

cmlover wrote:A decade ago when the OVK controversy was raging in Sangeetham site there were claims that 'OVK' was an elaborate hoax perpetrated by NKB who was fobbing off his own compositions under a mythical legendary figure. The book of poems uncovered by RK was claimed to be a forgery by NKB. It goes to the credit of RK that he fought off these slurs and duly established and restored OVK to his place of honour in CM history. I am just mentioninng this just for historical completeness!
This is brilliant! I'm not saying I believe this is real, and the wealth of other evidence clearly suggests otherwise, but looked at narrowly as part of the armchair debate, this demolishes Sri.Uday's posts 137/138; In essence, Sri.Uday argues that if OVK was not pre-trinity, he must have lived in well documented times, and should have been known to a number of people. This novel claim says OVK was neither pre nor post trinity, he never existed!

- Sreenadh

uday_shankar
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by uday_shankar »

ShrutiLaya wrote:and the wealth of other evidence clearly suggests otherwise
Just curious, what exactly is this "wealth" of other evidence ? As far as I am concerned, I rely on two things a) the assessment of infinitely better minds than mine b) that such minds are acting with integrity and good faith. So my so-called "arguments" are nothing more than a little armchair side show. But once you question the integrity and good faith of the primary participants in this drama, all bets are off. For example, there's no further discussion with folks who suggest the 9/11 is an Israeli conspiracy to designed bring a bad name to Islam. Again, I would be curious to know what exactly is the "wealth of other evidence", even from an armchiar perspective. Or is it a sop after my so-called arguments have been "demolished", not unlike the twin towers by those damned Israeli bombers:) ?

ShrutiLaya
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by ShrutiLaya »

I'm referring to the wealth of evidence in the multiple posts of RK (which, I too rely on for much the same reasons as you) ..

- Sreenadh

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Akella garu,

I wanted to contemplate on the subject a bit and hence the delay in my reply.
But, in respect of Sankeernam, according to our Indian tradition, which are named after Sankaram or Sankeernam must be avoided in our religion.
1. I think we are confusing two distinct things here. (a) Traditional/cultural meaning and context of the word (b) Musical development over centuries where the word has been used to represent a specific concept (eventually to do with the number 9).

2. If we were to apply (a) as our yardstick, things will get dangerously misleading. For eg, in our culture it is also true that:

Mishra = adulterating
Khanda = deficient, defective, crippled etc...

3. In this case, all composers including PD and Trinity would be critiqued for using such 'polluted' jatis! I am not saying they did - am just pointing out the dangers of selective or narrow interpretations of any concept to judge great people.

4. A counter point could be brought about saying that 9 - being such a sacred and important number in our religion - nava rasa, nava vidha bhakti, nava graha, nava -avarana and so forth. And someone who used 9 can be extra-glorified! Again, I am not saying they should be...

5. In the context of OVK, it would be misleading to suggest or even speculate that some composers avoided sankeernam because of cultural or religious reasons. Sankeernam has indisputably enriched our great music and its beauty - as a laghu or a gati. Its aesthetic beauty is undeniable. It just needs skill, scholarship to handle larger talas.

6. In another thread on Tala prastara you have yourself hit the nail on the head on post # 17.

http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1879
In the good olden days the Talas are very lengthier and as they all are very difficult to remember all the Talangas of them and also to execute them properly. Smaller Talas are introduced to make the matters easier to a common man. Even in these Talas, all the composers preferred to compose their compositions in much smaller Talas only. That is why we will find all the compositions of Saint Thyagaraja are composed either in Adi or Rupaka or Triputa
7. This is the correct reason and I agree with you 100%. The complex talas of the 'good old days' were gradually avoided in the latter parts of 1700s to make music accessible.

8. One cannot turn around in this thread and say that complex things were avoided because they were negative! And thank people who avoided them as well!!

9. As I said, it could have been just a personal choice or a gradual collective feeling that things had to be made simpler. Definitely the earlier decades/centuries had a few artistes who had no problems executing tougher talas and even relished using them. Otherwise, why would we find brilliant compositions by people like Arunagirinathar or OVK or others in such talas? Only Shyama Shastri - being the oldest among the trinity - carried more warmth for at least some of the 'tougher' talas and handled them with elan.

10. A composition like OVK's Sadanandamayi in Sankeerna Mathya is absolutely stunning without compromising on rakti, bhakti or bhava. That is almost an impossible balance to achieve, as we all know. The composer has chosen Hindolam for this weighty masterpiece shows his melodic vision of that raga as well. I am positive that being a vidwan of high calibre yourself, you will declare that OVK must be celebrated if you heard such pieces of his.

With sincere regards...
Last edited by chitravina ravikiran on 25 May 2011, 05:32, edited 1 time in total.

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Simply beautiful powerful arguments RK!
I have no words to commend you!
I hope sarmaji has arguments to substantiate his stance other than based on religion or metaphysics!

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran,

Sankeernam-9: All are aware that even numbers are always divisible and odd numbers are, in general, indivisible. Irrespective of the greatness of the number ‘9’ like navarasas or navagrahas etc., etc., in particular, in our music, it is not that convenient and easy to bear with or relish with ‘9’ like other odds 3 or 5 or even 7 pertaining to single-digit-figures. That is why all most all the composers have preferred to leave it alone may be except one or two. Even in respect of performers of music or dance, just one or two may be able to perform in music only to prove their efficiency but not to make the audience relish and I have seen none using this Sankeernam in any dance performance.

Even Arunagirinathar (Dindimabhattu), as per the history, used the prosody of Sanskrit in Tamil and composed some lyrics even without mentioning either the Raga or the Tala and they are our musicians who gave the names of Ragas and Talas and used them in their concerts that too in the absence of the knowledge of Prastara. Even in respect of Shyama Shastry, he did use only one tougher-tala, Sharabhanandana that too in the absernce of the knowledge of Prastara, but not Sankeernam at all. Accordingly, I also feel, it is useless to discuss about this particular point at length when this has already been avoided even by our ancestors even right from the primary lessons to be fed to our kids. amsharma

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

I wish to draw atttention to an earlier discussion herein
http://rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=997- ... kirna.html
The suggestion by vasya10, I quote
Re: Etymology for "sankIrna"isnt it a coincidence that by katayapadi scheme, khaNDa is 5 (kha =2 + Da=3 implies 2+3=5)... ? So does miSra -- ma = 5 + ra = 2 (5+2) = 7 ?

but of course, it doesnt work for sankirNa (which would be 7+1+[0 or 9], depending on the scheme).
is interesting.
Accordingly I wonder whether the original terminology was sankhIrNa which got corrupted!

Again, since the sUladi talas refer to Purandara dasa I wonder whether there is a record of his composition in sankirna which our kannada friends can explore....

hamsaa
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

Shri Akella seems to be contradicting himself from thead to thead, post to post and his argument does not seem to be convincing for any student of science, logic or music.


1. It is completely wrong to unilaterally declare that 9 is not convenient to use just because some composers have not used it. This is known as retrospective justification. But even here, his posts in other threads contradict what he is saying here. How did he himself think that Sankeerna was good enough to give prastara in the other thread (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1879) - post no. 1

2. There has been no practical, scientific or mathematical reason given as to why 9 is inconvenient. If talas with 128 counts like Simhanandanam were handled by musicians (prastara or not), how can a puny number like 9 be difficult?

3. Arunagirinathar never needed to give tala! The meter of the song is so obvious even to primary school children who can add up syllables and count them.

4. It is highly presumptuous to state that all musicians do not have the knowledge of prastara.

5. Last but not the least, in what way are prastara of angas like laghu relevant to any compositions? It is just good as an exercise for students, esp those interested in math or theory. It has had nothing to do with concert music or compositions of even the Trinity!!!

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi. hamsa dear, In general, praising a person will not help in bringing out the hidden talents of a person but criticising helps a lot. In the same manner your critical post only makes me bring out more of my abilities to the readers. Thus, in one way I also feel thankful to you.
1. It is completely wrong to unilaterally declare that 9 is not convenient to use just because some composers have not used it. This is known as retrospective justification. But even here, his posts in other threads contradict what he is saying here. How did he himself think that Sankeerna was good enough to give prastara in the other thread (http://www.rasikas.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=1879) - post no. 1
As a senior student of music I very well know that, excepting just one or two, all other composers have very conveniently avoided Sankeernam-9 either as a Jaati or even Gati while composing their compositions. Of course, basing upon what justification they all did so I do not know. Even without taking any time to go through my posts like you did, I can, now and here, tell that I did nowhere tell in any of my posts in ‘rasikas.org’ that one particular figure is good for Prastara and that another figure is not good for Prastara. I shall be thankful if you prove it. As Prastara is of mathematics nobody can avoid a particular number in the process of General-permutaion. If it is required anybody can avoid any number in Devoid-permutation. Do you know the deference between the General-permutation and Devoid-permutation. Can you demonstrate it, dear?
2. There has been no practical, scientific or mathematical reason given as to why 9 is inconvenient. If talas with 128 counts like Simhanandanam were handled by musicians (prastara or not), how can a puny number like 9 be difficult?
I do not know the individual views of the listerners, but the maximum number of listeners cannot relish at all Sankeernam-9 either as Jaati or as Gati like they do in respect of Chaturashram-4 or Trisram-3. My dear hamsa, you are a kid and you better know that even the handful of musicians have demonstrated their Shimhanandanam applying Chaturashra-jaati only arriving at the total of 128 Kriyas but none of them demonstrated it applying the puny(not very impressive)-sankeerna-jaati arriving at the total 283 Kriyas.
3. Arunagirinathar never needed to give tala! The meter of the song is so obvious even to primary school children who can add up syllables and count them.
If Arunagirinathat never needed to give the names of the Talas how come Shri S.R. Janakiraman furnished the names of 11 Talas of him, 1.Kaitala-tiraikani 2.Parimalagalabha 3.Kaadi-modi 4.Iyalishai 5. Orupoyudu irucharanam 6.Nilayaadi-samudramaana 7.Shinattavar-mudikum 8.Tirunala-maruvi 9.Kaaranamadaaga 10.Shivanaar-manam and 11.Kandar-aandaadi along with his own created-tala, Shanmukha (unfortunately even without any serial number at all) carrying 56 Kriyas (of course, not Aksharas at all as mentioned by him) in pages 356 to 359 of his Sangita Shastra Saaramu-Part-1.
4. It is highly presumptuous to state that all musicians do not have the knowledge of prastara.
Yes, by the grace of the Almighty, I declare that I am the sole authority on Talaprastara of our music on the globe and if any other person properly and correctly answers my questions pertaining to this topic in a public meeting (time and place of such meeting will be fixed and notified if needed) I shall pay him ten lakhs of rupees on the condition that he/she must pay me five lakhs of rupees if he/she cannot do so.

Even in this post I reiterate to ask you why none of the stalwarts or the great authors of all the treatises, till now, had ever solved this element and brought out all the latent secrets of it within the reach of our aspirants since 12th century, if it is nothing but permutation as you already wrote?
5. Last but not the least, in what way are prastara of angas like laghu relevant to any compositions? It is just good as an exercise for students, esp those interested in math or theory. It has had nothing to do with concert music or compositions of even the Trinity!!!
In the absence of the knowledge of Talaprastara you are also talking just like other non-knowledgeable teachers, professors and other musicians which, of course, I do not and need not mind. You better study and learn Talaprastara and come to me to get the answers of your irrelevant and foolish questions.

If you want to support a particular person you can do so as you like. But, in that process, it is not netiquette to criticise others taking advantage of the anonymity and even without any base. amsharma

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Akella garu,

Since you are very senior, I don't want to belabour the same points or attempt to change your views! We have both made our points which should make our respective stances clear to all! I will just point out 3 things for the benefit of rasikas:

1. Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati. It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the dhrtam and the tala count is 20. So, I think the whole discussion about Sankeerna as a jati and gati, its religious/metaphysical or other qualifications is out of context here.

2. We have about 1300 plus of Arunagirinathar's tiruppugazh and most of them are in different meters. So, 11 talas will be nowhere sufficient to classify them. I have learnt several tuned by the great Kancheepuram Naina Pillai from my guru Brindamma. I have also learnt a few tuned by Shri Chittoor Subramaniam Pillai and others. Moreover, I have myself set to music a few of these including verses in Sankeerna based meters.

3. But the main issue is not so much about Sankeernam. It is the fact that high-quality artistes existed who relished complex talas and other rhythmic aspects then. If things got watered down later, it is no reflection on the earlier set of legends. One cannot say that people don't relish them and make it appear that it is the tala's or jati's fault.

Finally, the question of Sankeerna was brought in post #1 only to 'establish that 'OVK could not have been an earlier era composer because the jati was not there till recently. References prove that the jati existed even before 1700s.

So, probably we can all give this thread a well deserved rest?!

sr_iyer
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sr_iyer »

Shri Ravikiran,

Just a minor clarification.
1. Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati. It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the dhrtam and the tala count is 20.
The tALa you have described above, and referred to as Sankeerna Mathyam, _is_ sankIrNa jAti maThyam. The jAti qualifier is for the laghu count as per standard nomenclature. Apologies if I state the obvious.
Last edited by sr_iyer on 27 May 2011, 17:01, edited 1 time in total.

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Shri Iyer,

You are absolutely correct to say that it is Sankeerna jati mathyam. But my point was that except for Mishra Roopakam, Khanda Triputa and Sankeerna Ekam, the tala counts are not 9 (and only Mishra Atam has 18 units, a multiple of 9). Sankeerna Mathyam has 2 laghus of Sankeerna but the tala is khanda swaroopa (20 counts). I was making this point as a response to certain posts which seemed to suggest that 9 should be avoided. This was further supplemented by another point that people do not relish 9.

I don't subscribe to either of these views at all - I think each jati brings beauty to our great system and people will relish the more they hear good renditions of sankeernam. However, I merely pointed out that even by this line of argument, we are barking up the wrong tree since the discussion veered around Sankeerna mathyam!

sr_iyer
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by sr_iyer »

Shri Ravikiran,

Thanks for your response, and apologies if I stated the obvious :) Reading your post, I did guess that you might have intended the total kriyA count as the purport of your statement, and thought I would just clarify on the standard usage of the term jAti.
Last edited by sr_iyer on 27 May 2011, 17:02, edited 2 times in total.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

Funnily, you first wrote ‘Sankeerna Mathyam is not Sankeerna jati or gati’ and contradicting it you again wrote ‘It just has 2 laghus of Sankeernam but add the Drutam and the tala count is 20’. I am unable to follow you.

I know Tamil very little and also I cannot read it well. I have not learnt even a single composition of Arunagirinathar. Having gone through the details of 11 new Talas furnished by Shri S.R.Janakiraman in his Sangita Shastra Saaramu (Telugu) I have found them as the Talas which should not be rendered like the Sharabhanandana-tala, said to have been created by Shyama Shastry for the purpose of singing it in a competition to save the prestige of the kingdom, as per the history. As all these rhythmical forms do not fit in the terms and conditions of the Taladasha-pranas they come under the category ‘the rhythmical-forms which should not be rendered and called as Talas at all’. In the absence of the proper knowledge of Taladasha-pranas many artists, however great they may be, may have composed compositions and named the talas and also sung in their concerts. But, merely by doing so, these new rhythmical forms can never be treated on par with other Talas which very strictly fit in the terms and contions of the Taladasha-pranas and abundantly relish the listeners? If his compositions are so great why full-length concerts are not being arranged singing only his compositions right from the beginning to the end?

There is another important point at this juncture. While Shyama Shastry have created only one such rhythmical form, Sharabhanandanam which do not fit in the prevailing terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas Arunagirinathar introduced the prosody of Sanskrit into Tamil and composed some songs in that Chando-roopas which do not fit in the prevailing terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. More over, while Sharabhanandanam will not, in general, be utilised by anybody due to its emplexity, the musicians, who did not have the required awareness of the terms and conditions of the Taladasha-pranas, are the sole cause to set the names of ragas and talas for the Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar and sing them in their concerts.

In particular, these rhythmical forms are violating two terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas and they are (1) an Anga of any Tala should not differ in its value in terms of its Jaati irrespective of its usage in number of times in the same Tala. To make it more clear, for example, among the two Laghus of Ata-tala, both Laghus must be of the same Jaati but not of different Jaatis and (2) the combinations of one or more Angas like Laghu-virama or Laghu-druta or Laghu-druta-virama which are called Samyukthaangaas as per Prastara should not be rendered at all as they have to be rendered using more beats to a single Anga. But, either in Sharabhanandanam of Shyama Shastry or in any other chando-roopa of Arunagirinathar these two conditions have wantonly been violated even in the absence of the knowledge of Talaprastara. Instead of being ideal to all others in following the already laid terms and conditions of Tala it is a pity that even such stalwarts stooped down in violating the terms and conditions of Tala.

In our Karnatka music all the rhythmical aspects have been brought under the Taladasha-pranas and a number of great compositions of all times, very strictly adhering to the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas, came out of all the saint-composers like Jayadeva, Narayanateertha, Sadashivabhrahmendra, Purandaradasa, Annamacharya, Ramadasa and Thyagaraja on their own by the grace of the Almighty. None of them sat at a place and write all these compositions. But, later, the things started to water down by certain lateral composers who sat at a place and composed their compositions even violating the logical terms and conditions only to make a show. That is the pity of our great tradition and people. amsharma

davalangi
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by davalangi »

msakella wrote: Having gone through the details of 11 new Talas furnished by Shri S.R.Janakiraman in his Sangita Shastra Saaramu (Telugu)
amsharma
Just wanted to clarify that the "names furnished in the book" are not Tala names but compositions of Arunagirinathar. Shri.SRJ lists the compositions as examples to illustrate some of the chandas' employed by Arunagirinathar. However, he has used names like Surya, Shanmukha, Shubha etc. purely for the sake of nomenclature in accordance with the katapayadi scheme. He seems to clearly mention that in most of the examples cited, the chandas of the composition does not fit any “known” tala structure.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear Devalangi, Thank you very much for your kind clarification. All these names are in Tamil-language and in the absence of the proper knowledge in Tamil I took them for Tala-names. amsharma

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

In continuation may I also point out that the names of the talas khanda/misra/sankirna/ etc., were retrofitted and were not part of the vocabulary of AN. On the otherhand I presume the talas in OVK are original and not of later origin. May I also point out that AN has stuck to the hoary Tamil grammar ('yAppilakkaNam') for his compositions and not borrowed anything from sanskrit chandas. Of course he has used somewhat sanskritized Tamil, nor was he a sanskrit scholar to have composed any in sanskrit again unlike OVK who is a versatile scholar in both the languages. Since Sarmaji does not read Tamil and has no firsthand knowledge of AN compositions he should refrain from commenting on his works based on second hand information. AN's thiruppugazh is considered divinely inspired and is held in high regard by the Tamil community as much as the compositions of the Trinity. The attempt to tune them which were of the old bhajana style into classical CM ragas/talas is a commendable effort in progress and apparently if it leads to new develpments in laya we should all welcome those efforts as enriching our knowledge base in carnatic Music.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, cmlover, Being an Indian I also feel proud of all our great composers inrrespective of my knowledge in that respective language. Yes, my knowledge of Tamil language is very limited but I like it very much. That is why while I know just one or two words of Kannada I can very well manage with Tamil far better than Kannada. Here, I am not talking about any language but Tala. Please mind it. I need not have any objection if you call the meters of the compositions of Arunagirinathar or any other composer for that matter Chando-roopas or rhythmical-forms. But if you call them Talas they must fit in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. Being a knowledgeable person of Taladasha-pranas I feel it as my duty in maintaining certain disciplines and I shall certainly point out if any kind of violation of them is made by anybody. I do not think that violation of the established principles cannot be called enriching the knowledge.amsharma

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

Dear Akella garu,
But if you call them Talas they must fit in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas.
Please refer to our earlier discussion on the same subject. You also agreed with me that dasha pranas came much later than tala - as a fundamental concept. Dasha pranas are nothing more than a classification of some of the attributes of tala, for people to understand laya better. One cannot say that the attributes are more important than the concept. Tala is a fundamental entity and is definitely independant of dasha pranas. While many dasha prana concepts are brilliant in their own way, several of them are far removed from practice - for most composers, concert artistes, general students or rasikas.

Practice comes first - theory has to keep pace. If theory has not kept pace to fit in Arunagirinathar's rhythms, new books on theory have to be written, since he was no ordinary person but a divinely inspired composer, whose works are venerated even by non-Indians. Same goes for ragas and talas or jatis that we may not find in 2nd century or even 15th century works. These books were good for a given era in a particular context. If music developed much more later on with inputs from Shyama Shastri, OVK or Arunagirinathar level of geniuses, the responsibility is on the theoreticians to adapt, factor these developments in and write new books that give a better picture of our great system.

One cannot sit back and say 'These are dilution because so and so did not talk about it 1000 years back'. That will drag our music back a few centuries. Similarly, one cannot say 'these are not desirable because so and so did not compose in this style.' That would be a highly subjective and narrow view to adopt, which will force people into typesetting greatness and fitting it into a match box. Our system is far bigger than a few books. After all the books were written by human beings with varying degrees of capacities and understanding of music. It is not even known how many of these authors we quote today were acknowledged masters of practical music in their times. So, while one appreciates their efforts, one need not give the books biblical importance and try to see if every subsequent genius fitted into a particular square like tala dasha prana, which was drawn in an era when music was still developing.

I agree that we have to make sure that nothing cheap is being brought into our music. But Sankeernam, gati bhedams or what some may feel 'unrelishable' or 'complex' talas are not cheap/escapist practices. They demand a high degree of skill and masters have proved that rakti, bhakti and bhava can still be present, with practice. I am sure that everyone will agree that this is what matters at the end of the day. As Tyagaraja and OVK have themselves shown, we have to salute all true great masters who have made our music what it is today - a world renowned system known for its sophisticated melody and rhythmic content...

With regards...

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Chi. Ravikiran dear, I truly appreciate your views on many aspects, dear. But, in respect of some aspects, I sincerely feel that some rationale and discipline is essential in following the respective attributes to keep our art in tact, well-disciplined and ideal to all others to follow.

In my previous post I wrote that though Taladasha-pranas were a later development in making the respective displines into 10 divisions all these elements have already been funished in Sangita Ratnakara. The different kinds of elements are stipulated only to maintain some rationale and discipline in the usage of the things.

We all revere always all our great composers of all our Indian languages without any exception as they are great exponents in their own way composing everlasting compositions being great devotees of the Almighty. No Indian wants to belittle their sincere efforts and talents. For example, if we take the Great Arunagirinathar, he had composed many songs of his own talent and gave them to the posterity. He composed them in rare meters utilising different kinds of unit-groups in the process but did not give them names of Talas as they all are of different Chando-roopas. There is no fault of him. The fault lies only on our lateral musicians who used his songs in an indisciplined way utilising our Talangas carrying different varying units even in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form which will not fit in the discipline of our Tala. In which way it is indisciplined? I shall explain you. As per the discipline of our Anga any Anga, irrespective of its number of occurance in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form, must carry the same units wherever it occurs in the same cycle of the rhythmical-form. To make it more clear, for example, if there are three Laghus to be rendered in a single cycle of the rhythmical-form, each and every Laghu of them must carry the same unit-value of either 3 or 4 or 5 or 7 or 9 pertaining to Trisra or Chaturashra or Khanda or Mishra or Sankeerna-jaatis but not one Laghu of Trisra-jaati (3), another Laghu of Chaturashra-Jaati (4) and still another Laghu of Khanda-jaati (5). This happened in case of many rhythmical-forms used by our lateral musicians who, in turn, attribute this indiscipline to the poor Arunagirinathar. Would you like to support this indiscipline, dear?

Even in case of our Great Shyama Shastry, as per the history, when the Asthana-vidwans approached him and requested to save the prestige of the kingdom by defeating another Vidwan ‘Bobbili Kesavaiah’, he, in turn, brought out the Sharbhanandanam (Sharbham is higher even than Simham) against his Simhanandanam and defeated him and very well saved the presitige of the kingdom. Even though some tables of Prastara, said to have been written in his own hand-writing, are found in-correct, nobody (except myself) is aware of these in-corrections in those tables, which obviously reveal his lack of knowledge in Prastara (refer my book, Indian genius in Talaprastara-English). Only in the absence of the true knowledge of Prastara he ventured to exhibit it and to defeat the opponent only to save the prestige of others but not to make a show. Except this he did never do anything against our established disciplines. What is the indiscipline in redering this Sharabhanandanam? Let me explain you. In this rhythmical-form, apart from other general Talangas, Samyukthaangaas, which are written one above the other, Laghu-virama, Laghu-druta and Laghu-druta-virama occur thrice, twice and once respectively. In our music, according to the discipline of Anga, each and every Anga (except the Kakapada which is a soundless-anga) must start with a single sounded-beat followed by un-sounded gestures, if needed, for the remaining units of value. But, here, while one has to render Laghu-virama with two beats, Laghu-Druta also should be rendered with two beats and Laghu-druta-virama with three beats which is against the discipline of Anga. Thus, any rhythmical-form consisting of such Samyuktangaas should not be rendered at all.

Thus, I want to point out the deeds of indiscipline which hinder our disciplined development. amsharma

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

Fascinating stuff as usual. I think if we avoid value judgement words like 'Indicipline', 'for show', 'dilution', 'undesirables' etc. we can avoid distractions and focus on the scholarly matter which is what this discussion is.

Constraints define architectures. In that sense, I see where Akellaji comes from. The tala prasthara system is a rhythmic architecture. Even if one wants to step outside of something for aesthetic reasons, one need that 'something' to step outside of.

This brings up a couple of questions.

1) What are the musical significances of angas?

2) If someone wants to map Arunagirinatha's chanda-roopas to thalas, what are the options for the tune-setter?

I see the following possibilities.

Try to find a tala that maps to the chanda structure (along with that serial number Sri. Akellaji talks about)

What do we do for the ones that do not map to a tala serial number?

2 a) Take some artistic license and decide that it is OK to add a kArvai here, shorten a kArvai there to the chandas and map it to a tala serial number. Here the tune-setter's creativity and aesthetic sense is paramount. Not sure if Thiruppugazh community will go for this but may be they will if it satisfies the overall thiruppugazh aesthetics.

2 b) Do not call them talas or even chanda talas ( which is akellaji's major complaint ) but chanda-something. Akellaji seems to prefer chandra-roopas. Or, if there is a tamil word that stands for 'rhythmic structure', use it.

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Sarmaji
Why is it so sacred to maintain the same jAti in all the laghus in a given tala?
Is there any rationale other than convention?
..and who made that convention? Sarngadeva?
Thiruppugazh talas do violate those conventions which is why they are called 'anga' talas.

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

vasanthakokilam:

1.Just in which way the limbs (angas) of our body act as per the direction of the brain to keep our body running in a way it requires the Angas of the Tala also act as per the prescribed discipline of that particular rhythmical form to keep the music running in a way it requires.

2.Chando-roopas or prosodic-forms are innumerable rhythmical forms in which the total value of all
the different constituent Angas forms the cycle of that particular rhythmical form. Each and every rhythmical-form in the universe has its own authentic and specific-serial-number. The Talaprastara, which has very recently been brought out since many centuries, only gives this critical knowledge. Some well-disciplined terms and conditions which are furnished in Taladasha-pranas must be fulfilled to make a rhythmical-form a Tala. Even though every person is highly interested in becoming a musician selected person only can become a musician but not all others.

cmlover:

In which way some kind of uniformity is maintained in the limbs of our body either in respect of hands or legs or eyes or ears some kind of uniformity or discipline must certainly be maintained in respect of Tala (not chando-roopa please) to make the music run softly. I hope you can very easily imagine the chaos if we have to work with one hand longer and another shorter, one leg longer and another shorter and so on and so forth. amsharma

cmlover
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by cmlover »

Sarmaji
so your argument is based on aesthetics or symmetry in particular. I wonder who created those rules in the first instance. The same argument was employed for excluding the vivadi melas and their janyas in the raga context but the Trinity did compose a few in those melas/ragas which are quite appealing. What is intellectually appealing need not be simple or symmetrical. Our math does not exclude prime numbers for their indivisibility. The leaning tower of Pisa is one of the greatest architectural attractions in the world. Nor do we shun handicapped individuals for their asymmetry or lack of limbs. Aren't we doing injustice to CM by creating and sticking to outmoded rules which hamper the development of our art form?

chitravina ravikiran
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by chitravina ravikiran »

VK ji,
Do not call them talas or even chanda talas ( which is akellaji's major complaint
1. But that is the point. The basic term 'tala' includes all these talas. It is not limited to or by dasha pranas. Dasha pranas is a no more than tool that attempts to study talas, a much larger phenomenon.

2. How can a tool restrict the subject? Even among the dasha pranas, prastara is more a theoretical tool. If not, would not every gurukulam from PD to OVK/Trinity, their gurus till today's pitamahas like Semmangudi/GNB have been teaching dasha pranas like Sarali varishais or 72 melakartas and so forth?

3. Prastara is a highly specialised subect and Akella garu has mastered it. We all should respect that. He is doing everything to share his knowledge - we all admire that.

4. However, it is still one of 10 components in a study tool. In other words, AN, OVK or SS level people should not be viewed through that small prism like prastara and judged one way or the other. That will dangerously distort our perspectives, as CML has also pointed out.

Ponbhairavi
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by Ponbhairavi »

I understand that the word talam in its original usage denotes the tool i e the instrument , the cymbals (the jalras) bhagavathas keep in their hands to mark the rhythm.In such a context the thevaram singers the tirupugazh singers keep it in their hands. subsequently it should have come to denote the various forms of rhythm and its angas.
rajagopalanI

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Ravikiran:

Rules and regulations will always be framed to do things in an easy and disciplined manner to cater the needs of either efficients or inefficients and, later, in due course, they will be made flexible either to make the process easier or to accommodate developments or even to accommodate inefficiencies and inconveniences.

Thus, Taladasha-pranas are to have a well-disciplined tala-structure but not only to ‘study’ Talas. Our body is controlled by Pancha-pranas which means every thing of our body will be limited to these Pancha-pranas only but not beyond.

Prastara is not a small prism at all and every thing which is sung comes under Prastara in which way every thing which is eaten have a taste. People may not mind it but there is a taste in each and every eatable. But, if the person’s tongue bears with it will be sent in or, if not, thrown out. Even in Sarali-varisai and 72-Melas always there is Prastara even if the person is not aware of it. Irrespective of the level of the persons, everybody must abide by all the rules and regulations. If not, such persons, in the absence of the proper knowledge, name these Chando-roopas as Chando-talas or Anga-talas or some other name of their own fancy.
Now, at this juncture, I must tell that even Sharngadeva, irrespective of his un-paralleled knowledge in all other aspects of music, is the sole cause for this kind of chaos for not having taken a rational and well-disciplined action in respect of this ‘Prastara’ but mislead the readers furnishing contadictory versions of it in his ‘Sangita Ratnakara’ written in 13th century. See, what happened now to his monumental work? A small mosquito named ‘msakella’ brought out all his contradictions of Prastara into light which tarnished the image of him. Always, in every respect, it is preferable to have a rational and disciplined outlook of our deeds or if not, our image will certainly be tarnished at one time or other like the Great Sharngadeva.

cmlover:

Once Dr.R.Sathyanarayana of Mysore quoted that vivadis are meant only to enhance the beauty of the raga. But, due to their inefficiency in handling them, our musicians very conveniently excluded them. Our system of music is not filled with outmoded rules and regulations. But, as our people do not want to be controlled by strict dilscipline, they always want to amend rules in their favour. amsharma

vasanthakokilam
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by vasanthakokilam »

If not, such persons, in the absence of the proper knowledge, name these Chando-roopas as Chando-talas or Anga-talas or some other name of their own fancy.
So, what is your suggestion for naming the musical rhythmical form of those chando-roopas that do not map to a thala prasthara serial number?

VK RAMAN
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by VK RAMAN »

"to amend rules in their favour" - creativity at play

msakella
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by msakella »

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, In the universe, each and every rhythmical-form has its own specific-serial-number which could very easily be obtained through Prastara. But, there are two kinds of rhythmical-forms, 1. which can be rendered and named after a ‘Tala’ which fits in the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas and 2.which should not be rendered and even named after any ‘Tala’ as it violates the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. Shyama Shastry’s Sharabhanandanam and the Chando-roopas of Arunagirinathar or of anybody else come under the 2nd category. Even though they have the specific-serial-number along with all others, they should not be rendered or even named after any ‘Tala’ as they all violate the terms and conditions of Taladasha-pranas. That is why they all must be named after Chando-roopas or rhythmical-forms. That’s all.

Even all the three great devotees and composers of our musicial Trinity are very highly disciplined in so many aspects except one or two accidental incidents. In Shyama Shastry’s case he was compelled to defeat a Vidwan in saving the prestige of all the Asthana-vidwans and the kingdom. In this process, in the absence of the knowledge of Prastara (this element was fully defined by me only almost in the end of 20th century and prior to this all the musicians are unaware of it), only to defeat him he created a complex-rhythmical-form and named it ‘Sharabhanandana-tala’ to make it suitable against ‘Simhanandana-tala’. Except in this stray incident, he was very highly disciplined devotee of Mother Kamaakshi. Even in case of Dikshitar, must be only by the compulsion of somebody, he composed only one composition on the then Ettayaapuram Maharajah. Except this, he also was very highly disciplined devotee of the Almighty. Accoding to the history, even if they lived after OVK, it must be pointed out that, even though they all are more capable than any other musician in so many aspects, they always remained ideal very strictly following all the normal disciplines. amsharma

hamsaa
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Re: Oothukkadu Venkata kavi - a pre trinity composer?

Post by hamsaa »

I think this thread is digressing completely away from the main topic...

Can Akella ji please explain what tala dasha pranas and prastaras have to do with the brilliant OVK composition in sankeerna mathyam?

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