Lyrics-Kandathundo Kannan Pol

srs2 · Post by **srs2** » 24 Jul 2007, 23:19

Could someone please let me know where I can find lyrics for the song
Kandathundo Kannan Pol by Shri Kalki Krishnamurthy

Thanks so much !

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 24 Jul 2007, 23:28

1: kaNDaduNDO kaNNan pOl bhuviyil kaNDaduNDO kaNNa pOla pOla pOl
2: vAna mukhil pOlum mEni vaNnam koNDAn mAnilam mayanga gAnam payilvAn
3: AyarpADi tannil AniraigaL mEippAn nEyamAgap-pEshi nenjam pughuvAn
(toghayarA)
â€œkaNmaNi nIâ€

srs2 · Post by **srs2** » 25 Jul 2007, 01:12

Thank you so much !!!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Jul 2007, 02:06

1. puviyil (bhuvi in other languages)
In the same line, the second time too, it is kaNNan (not kaNNa).
2. mugil (not mukhil in tamizh).
3. puguvAn

togaiyaRA (which means etc), is in viruttam form here (without tALam), until--paNNiSaittE varuvAn sakiyE!

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Jul 2007, 18:24

arasi wrote: puviyil (bhuvi in other languages)

Substituting pa for bha - is it an exception or the rule?

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 25 Jul 2007, 18:27

'puvi' is the tamil-ised version of 'bhuvi' like 'pangayam' for 'pankajam'.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Jul 2007, 21:16

vgvindan: Your posting did not answer my question about such usage being the rule or the exception.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 25 Jul 2007, 21:33

Lakshman:
In general Thamizh does not have words starting with "bu" or "bhu". So when Sanskrit words starting with "bu" or "bhu" are encountered , it is converted to "pu" in most cases. You may call it a rule.

Some other examples: bhUlokham is written as "pUvulagam"
bhujam --> puyam

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 25 Jul 2007, 22:37

lakshmanji,
I would like to add the following -

As regards foreign? words - there are two categories in Tamil
tatsamam - eg - kamalam - Sanskrit word - written in Tamil - kamalam - without any change in pronunciation.

tatbhavam - eg - pankajam - Sanskrit word - written in Tamil as - pankajam - with 'j' which is not a Tamil letter. However, in many such cases, such words which are frequently used in Tamil have been Tamil-ised 'pankaja' 'pangayam'; hara - aran etc.

Therefore, such words which have been converted to Tamil form are written and pronounced as such unless the composer has written it otherwise.

But there are other words which come in doubtful category. Eg. 'govindan' - according to Tamil rule for pronunciation, it should be pronounced as 'kovindan'. But it is not done so. Therefore, here it becomes an exception.

However, as discussed in 'Transliteration' forum, such a rule may not be applied when transliterating to other languages.
I hope I have answered your query.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Jul 2007, 23:04

I am asking about this because, in school, I never learnt tamil as a subject.
If bhuvi is written as puvi is it also pronounced as puvi?
How about words like pancabhUtam, bhavAni, bhayam, AbhOgi etc? Are these exceptions? I have not heard anyone pronounce/write them as pancapUtam. pavAni, payam, apOhi.
Why have only some words written/spoken differently and not others?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 25 Jul 2007, 23:23

Lakshman:
In Thamizh the letter "pa" can be read as "pa" as well as "ba".
So "puvi" is written as puvi and pronounced as puvi.

As for the other words, the are all imports (of course so is bhuvi) and the shaiva siddhAntak kazhhagam as well singaLa Thamizh folks write and pronounce them as "pavAni", "pUdam", "ApOgi" etc. Since in the written form there is no distinction between "pa" and "ba" in Thamizh script, it is the pronunciation which is at variance according to who is doing it--the brahmins will pronounce it in the Sanskrit mode while singLa Thamizh folks will pronounce it with a "p" sound.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 25 Jul 2007, 23:37

lakshmanji,
'puvi' is a Tamil-ised version of 'bhuvi' and pronounced as 'puvi'.

'pancabhUtam' has been converted to Tamil as 'aimbUdam', (aindu (aim) -five; bUdam - bhUtam) - if the word is given as pancabhUtam people will have their own rules of pronunciation. For example - word 'padmA' is pronounced variedly as 'batmA' 'patmA' etc. No rules can be applied to such words.
'bhayam' is pronounced as 'bayam' and not as 'payam'

Use of Sanskrit words in Tamil is indeed a problem because Tamil does not have any rules of grammar for such words.

Lakshman · Post by **Lakshman** » 25 Jul 2007, 23:47

Thanks.

vgvindan · Post by **vgvindan** » 26 Jul 2007, 00:02

It is notable that Tamil, in particular, utilizes a remarkably compact alphabet (syllabary derived via grantha forms from the Bra_hmi_ script); for example, the script symbol for the syllable, ka connotes a phonetic spectrum of ka, kha, ga and gha. The use of a limited number of script symbols for syllables is perhaps an indication that, even if the phoneme (for a given morpheme) had a ka, kha, ga or gha, the semantic content remained unaltered. This extraordinary economy (yet, diversity) in script form is, therefore, an indication that for effective linguistic communication of a message, phonetic formants are subordinate to the semantic structure of morphemes.

http://www.hindunet.org/hindu_history/s ... 0intro.htm
Indian Lexicon - An Introduction
Prof S Kalyanaraman

Let us take the case of 'Abhogi' - a lay man will pronounce it as 'Abogi' only. Though 'ph' and 'bha' may be there in written language, the spoken language has only 'p' and 'b' which is sufficient for communication.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Jul 2007, 01:43

Lji,
The problem is amplified when other languages are written in tamizh and pronounced without regard to the original - that is exactly how 'banTu rIti' becomes 'panDu rIdi' or 'padmanAbhan' becomes the guy seraching for Robin. So, bhavAnI, morphs to bavAnI, and from there to pavAnI.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2007, 02:02

Lakshman,
Valid question. Take bUlOkam (means the same as puvi). Since our concern here is CM lyrics, I will say I have not heard bULOkam pronounced as pUlOkam in a song. Grammar aside, I think pronouncing a particular word in a particular manner has more than one reason for it: habit, both in one's own way of pronounciation AND the way one has heard it pronounced in a song. Add to it the influence of hearing the same sort of words in telugu, sanskrit and kannada of CM compositions. Then, there is the very structure of a line or context which makes one pronounce a word in a particular way. Take a handful of singers. Some would stick to the tamizh way, others would do it the sanskrit way. Aesthetics comes into it too. When you sing jayamuNDU, bayamillai manamE, it is agreeable to listen when j is pronounced as in jayam, but ba, instead of the bha pronounced in bhayam! You pronounce ka and ga (no kha and gha, ta and da but not tha and dha and so on). Rules? I don't know!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2007, 02:21

Ravi,
Valid statement. Singing from a book or notebook which has tamizh text without knowing the meaning results in bad pronounciation. Those who speak tamizh should really try to find out. Printing non-tamizh songs in tamizh script with 1,2,3,4 over the heads of letters--for example, the numbers made it very clear if the ka was as in kanaka, khaga, gAna or ghana. Those from other regions have problems with tamizh but interestingly, if they HEARD the thamizh song and wrote it down in their own script, they are better off than the tamizh speakers!

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 26 Jul 2007, 02:27

arasi wrote:Those from other regions have problems with tamizh but interestingly, if they HEARD the thamizh song and wrote it down in their own script, they are better off than the tamizh speakers!

Could not agree more - except for letters for the sound 'zha'.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2007, 08:00

Yes! Reminds me of a german friend who was obsessive about getting zha right and poor thing, after a rigorous session with zha words, would say with much concentration, vAAzhaip param!

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 26 Jul 2007, 08:02

For many americans it is easy. The 'vezhi' fact that R can be pronounced as Azhr...

kutty · Post by **kutty** » 26 Jul 2007, 11:35

I remember an interesting incident. A chettiar wanted to learn Sanskrit and during the course he was told that the correct word for flower in Sanskrit is Pushpam. When he was discussing this with a Thamizh "aRingnar", he asked him not use that way but to call it "PuTpam". Another person hearing this said that in pure Thamizh he should call it "Puypam." Poor folk was confused very much as to how many way a word is pronounced. By this time, his friend came and he narrated his plight. Since the friend could not pronounce "sh" but "S" only, he suggested that it is better to call it "PuSpam". This further added to his confusion whether to use 'sh', 'T or 'S'.

At the time, one goat was just pulling his dhOti which was being dried on the fence. Chettiar shouted to his servant: "Hey, AshTu kuSTy vESTi tingaradu OshTu OshTu!"

IMHO, one need not attach unnecessary importance to this issue in so far as one is able to visualise what the author means since language is nothing but a medium to communicate. We can guide only when the person who requests a song gets confused and wants to know the correct pronounciation. The crux is to pronounce the word correctly as to picturise it and connote the correct meaning instead of distorting. No one bothers in whatever way we call the original vibIshaN as vibIshaNan, vIDaNan, vibIDaNan etc in Thamizh since all these indicate the brother of rAvaN. However, it is necessary to use the same word as used by the author even if it appears differently and Thamizhised.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 26 Jul 2007, 19:42

>>At the time, one goat was just pulling his dhOti which was being dried on the fence. Chettiar shouted to his servant: "Hey, AshTu kuSTy vESTi tingaradu OshTu OshTu!"<<

kutty:
I am relieved that the goat didn't pull the dhoti off the body of Chettiar. If that happened the Chettiar would have been nonplussed!