Panic Index

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Jan 2010, 15:41

Some thoughts about Slots:
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Artists can be divided into two compartments , some artists who are lucky to achieve the nirvana of having a prime evening slot where in most of their concerts are open ended where there is no concert to follow. This is nirvana group.

Artists who are in morning , noon or afternoon slot anytime within 2 hours they have to vacate the stage and give way to the next artist - non nirvana group.

My expectation for nirvana group from 2010 onwards:
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If the slot falls in nirvana group, these are the 5 carnatic tenets that I am going to look forward to

1. There should be a submain which has R,N and S , no R S or N S or R N etc, it should be R, N and S . This gives more classicism to the concert . As such more and more concerts are slowly losing the R N S submain structure. I am sure you have heard sArasAksha(R,N and S) of semmangudi mAmA in pantuvarAli , that is what is submain, not any thing less.

2. Main should have R N S only, there are few exemptions if the krithi does not have neraval like say maragatha vallim of MD in kAMbOdhi where musicians do not have an apt line to take up neraval.In that case the neraval should be elsewhere in any krithi other than sub main.But that does not mean the artist should always sing RST main and then take the neraval in some other krithi other than sub main to make the count of 2 neravals.

3. RTP is a must , the pallavi can be a single rAgA or a multiple rAga mAliga, anything is fine leave it to the artists.

4. viruththam or slOkham or ugabhooga is a must to satisfy the emotive needs of the concert, no skipping that.

5. To fulfill the above 4 , I guess the concerts have to be very likely a 3 hours + concert. Singing a vinayaka krithi or a varnam or a thillAnA etc is all optional they can choose whatever they want to.Tani should be say from 10 to 20 minutes ideally , if it overshoots that time that difference should be compensated with krithi rendering by proportionately extending the concert beyond 3 hours. As such 3 Hour or a 3 hour + is a must.

I am going to call this 5 tenets as pancha-nirvanA carnatic index (in short panic index)and I am going to track it in my future reviews . If some of you feel it is a good idea you can also track it and just tell the panic index score

.

If any artists get the first 4 from 2 hours to 2 and half hours concert which are of non nirvana category,that is fine too, that will be appreciated. I doubt if you can achieve this in 2 hours minus concerts.

Artists ,
You all should not bother if rasikas are going to be there after 8:30 pm or not,tani exodus etc , as such few will surely be there when the concert is for 3 hours +. Did madurai somu bother when he sang all thru the night , Did MDR bother when there were only 4 or 5 in the audience ,as such they should go for 3 hours plus. The sabha seceretaries also should insist on this 3 hour + slot or achieving the highest score of panic index.

I personally feel singing for 3 hours only narrows or eliminates the difference between today's and yesteryears artists?. Panic index does not indicate to the quality of rendering as such. Let artists get a score of 5 in panic index.

iconoclast · Post by **iconoclast** » 12 Jan 2010, 16:05

Since these are the days when people are revealing their "colors" on their Facebook profiles, why dont u include that also in this so-called index?? which colors prove "classicism" and which dont !! For heavens sake, this is an art-form, please dont reduce it to some cookery book tailor-made recepie..if u r really in need of intellectually stimulating work, u can try reading chetan bhagat !

Member_First · Post by **Member_First** » 12 Jan 2010, 16:07

Point No.2 Main itself may be an RTP, where all the RNS take place, that too with variations in tAlam. In this option, artist & rasikas get exposed to more manodharmam.

So, Point No.2 , Point No.3 or Point No.2 - Where RTP is getting qualified suitably.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Jan 2010, 16:57

iconoclast wrote:Since these are the days when people are revealing their "colors" on their Facebook profiles, why dont u include that also in this so-called index?? which colors prove "classicism" and which dont !! For heavens sake, this is an art-form, please dont reduce it to some cookery book tailor-made recepie..if u r really in need of intellectually stimulating work, u can try reading chetan bhagat !

Iconoclast,
Possibly in first read you may find what I am coming up is some kind of tailor made recipe. That is certainly not the intent .As such dont you feel the 4 that I have asked gives a sense of completeness for a carnatic concert . If you look at it very granularly lot of musicians are nowadays thinking either an elaborate submain or a main will do , pallavi is there no doubt in many concerts but still when the pallavi is sung that day very likely both main and sub main will not have both R N S , check that up . Continuity is the key and fragmentation with many numbers are a partial sub main or main is a bit dilution . This is not recipe just an enforcement of kutcheri paddhati which was always found in semmangudi or gnb or mmi concert.BTW I have read five point someone already of bhagat .

I personally like to have more complete concerts which bring in a lot of carnatic classicism and vocal stamina in foreground . No cutting short here and there.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 12 Jan 2010, 17:01

Member_First wrote:Point No.2 Main itself may be an RTP, where all the RNS take place, that too with variations in tAlam. In this option, artist & rasikas get exposed to more manodharmam.

So, Point No.2 , Point No.3 or Point No.2 - Where RTP is getting qualified suitably.

member_first
I am not sure if I have understood you completely. I think you are saying an elaborate main itself is equivalent to pallavi itself . Singing main generally does not have tAnam and as such RTP in general gives more rAga bhAvam then a main is my counter if I have understood your post correctly.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 12 Jan 2010, 17:29

Member_First · Post by **Member_First** » 13 Jan 2010, 09:53

rajeshnat,

I have said by singing RTP as the main means, each and every aspects of manodharamam is covered. In my opinion, RTP is an energy saver as for the main artist. Then, seperate main is redundant.

rbharath · Post by **rbharath** » 13 Jan 2010, 13:13

I always prefer going to a concert with a free mind. Going with expectations of any kind, unless you know what the artist is going to sing or you have made some requests and expect them, makes it rather tough to sit and enjoy the music. Even to musician friends i make it a point to not know their song lists before their concerts.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jan 2010, 13:31

I'd like there to be one main, slowly developed piece, mostly improvised, followed by one or two shorter pieces much the same.

Oh! That would be a Hindustani concert, I guess!

Seriously, though... I would like there to be R, S, and especially N, for much more than two pieces. I would like almost every song (perhaps leaving out the lightest of fillers) to be preceded by alapana.

Hearing a tillana seems relatively rare these days. That is a shame.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Jan 2010, 13:34

rbharath wrote:I always prefer going to a concert with a free mind. Going with expectations of any kind, unless you know what the artist is going to sing or you have made some requests and expect them, makes it rather tough to sit and enjoy the music. Even to musician friends i make it a point to not know their song lists before their concerts.

Bharath
I am going certainly with a free mind , i am not talking about song list and selections , I am talking about continuity of music and more about having adequate classicism in each of the concert. Is there adequate neraval and swaras , is there a pallavi etc. Read my next post.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Jan 2010, 13:34

Just few points to justify panic index:
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The best of best concerts have a feeling of inexplicable joy where there is intense continuity and not much fragmentation . ONe such example is the famous semmangudi mAmA's airport concert.Semmangudi gave so much and his submain that day was ksheenamai (R N S) and main was rAmAsamanevaru (R N S) with varAli RTP and tani and a rAgamAliga slokham towards the end - easily 3 hours plus, satisfying panic index score of 5 out of 5 .Infact that concert he also sings marivere,shrikanta, dinamani and hariharaputram, in short it was brimming with music and intent of classicism is extraordinary.

Just one point of submain and main :
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On a side note for a main or submain, when you hear a song where a detailed alAp if followed with swaras , you get a feel of O god I wish he had sung a neraval or sometimes only when there is a neraval without swaras , O gosh I wish there was round of swaras . Also I am speculating if there is no alApanai upfront the chances of neraval and swaras being very expansive is quite remote . Internally I feel R N S gives a combination of vidwath in the head of musician and following with singing the same just gives a feeling of intense classicism.

In short I am trying to "quantify in some way what I think is real concert quality". Concerts like semmangudi - airport is what musicians should deliver atleast most of the time. BTW even semmangudi mAmA would have not delivered it everytime , but as such I personally believe musicians like mmi-ssi-gnb- mlv-trs and ms have given atleast half of their concerts like that ,nowadays present musicians if I want to put it blunt atleast those in nirvana category are rationing out carnatic music where the reason is possibly either not having that much capability or a case of attitude where they feel this will do . Very very few concerts of today's musicians have a score of 5 in panic index, so it is most of the time latent I want that to be a lunar eclipse not a solar eclipse. BTW there is a slight chance as stated in the first post that panic index of 5 does not automatically qualify it as high quality.

Would be nice if I hear from today's musicians on my thoughts of panic index. Erode , balAji, neyveli ,vijisubra and suryaprakash put your thoughts here if you feel like, is this gibberish nonsense or does it make sense. I am quite serious about this 5 point panic index, as such everytime reviewing concert after concert and not quantifying the quality and not bench marking with say semmangudi -airport is just not serving the betterment of CM.I personally want nirvana slot musicians to plan every concert and give their best and take me to 1940 to 1960's , I am sure they are capable.

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 13 Jan 2010, 16:07

Enakku suthama Puriyalai .. have gone through many times .. still not clear what is what .. will go through in leisure .. and get back Rajesh Sir ..

J.Balaji

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 13 Jan 2010, 17:00

Why do you think only a concert in the format specified will be enjoyable. That is not true at all. There have been many concerts of DKJ, Nedunuri, KVN etc where there has been not a single raga alapana, nereval or an rtp. But still they have been top class. It is just the sheer presentation skill of the artists. Live concerts need not have a set menu. It is all dependant on the imagination, mood and temperament of the artist on that particular day and to an extent the audience.
Having these set expectations will not have any meaning!
For example listen to the DKJ-VVS-UKS concert held in Trivandrum. The main piece is mahadeva shiva sambho (revathi). No raga alapana but it stands tall. Ofcourse the sub-main in lalitha has an alapana

But I have listened to many concerts of DKJ specially without a single alapana or an rtp and they have been just fabulous. Again perhaps my likes are different, I give more importance to a kriti than an pallavi (which is more of showcasing the technical expertise of an artist)

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 13 Jan 2010, 17:23

musicfan_4201 wrote:Why do you think only a concert in the format specified will be enjoyable. That is not true at all. There have been many concerts of DKJ, Nedunuri, KVN etc where there has been not a single raga alapana, nereval or an rtp. But still they have been top class. It is just the sheer presentation skill of the artists. Live concerts need not have a set menu. It is all dependant on the imagination, mood and temperament of the artist on that particular day and to an extent the audience.
Having these set expectations will not have any meaning!
For example listen to the DKJ-VVS-UKS concert held in Trivandrum. The main piece is mahadeva shiva sambho (revathi). No raga alapana but it stands tall. Ofcourse the sub-main in lalitha has an alapana But I have listened to many concerts of DKJ specially without a single alapana or an rtp and they have been just fabulous. Again perhaps my likes are different, I give more importance to a kriti than an pallavi (which is more of showcasing the technical expertise of an artist)

Musicfan_4201
This is not a new set format that I am recommending . Many many concerts that spanned for close to 3 hours or more( very likely in 40's to 60's ) always have the continuity of R N S in both submain and main as well as a viruththam/slOkham and a pallavi . I am just reinforcing what was there and that which is not there or very very very rare.

DO you have the same satisfaction of DKJ trivandrum to say semmangudi -airport concert (BTW I am not comparing DKJ vs semmangudi), but as such feeling the necessity of having an expanded submain, main , pallavi and a viruththam to give more wholesomeness.

When you say imagination , mood and temperament etc , what I am stating can also have the same . As such musicians always plan to sing R N S T in a main , what I am asking is just 3 more . To an extent not singing a whole full meal concert comparable to airport - semmangudi is what I am comparing and more importantly is what I want today's musician to stirve for?. BTW I always like pallavi in a concert as it gives more classicism.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 13 Jan 2010, 17:44

Same talking, how many concerts of today span more than 2 to 21/2 hours. A 2 hour concert is just an extension of an AIR concert which is for 1 1/2 hours (NPs used to be for 1 1/2 hrs, I am not sure of the duration now, if at all there is one!). In that it is just difficualt to do justice to all 4.
Plus life has become too fast these days people do not have patience to sit thru for more than 2 hours.
Therefore this will lead to expectation gap.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 13 Jan 2010, 18:19

I don't know that you will ever succeed in "quantifying" the "quality" according to the formula of the content. I know what you mean (I think; it is hard to compare feelings, even of musical appreciation, especially when our thoughts have to go through the writting/forum barriers). It is those few concerts where the music is not just good, not even just excellent, but the entire concert is extra-ordinary. From your researches, it will be very interesting to know how much the content-formula (for want of better word) compares across those concerts. For me, I'd say that they are the concerts where the song number, the fact that it is main or sub-main or whatever, have, along with the clock, lost significance; it is the concerts where, quite suddenly, it is two hours later but it is hard to believe that the program is drawing to an end.

By speaking of the "intense continuity and not much fragmentation" you give the meaning to my half-facetious remark about Hindustani music. It is exactly what I meant.

One factor that is vital for a concert to rise to these heights is the team aspect of the music. However great the main artist, if we do not feel that the accompaniment is completely harmonious, with unobtrusive, but interesting, mridangam, and violin returns that build on, but never break the spell of continuity, then, regardless of content, all is lost to fragmentation.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 13 Jan 2010, 18:45

How a performer plans the two or three hour concert--even an hour and a half concert is important. If they do that well, we walk out of the concert happy. I have been antsy in a few two hour concerts, waiting for them to come to an end, not because the singing was bad, but simply because of the uneven nature of those concerts. The same applies to longer concerts. as well. Yet, there have been concerts which have lasted more than three hours and I want them to go on!

Yes, suitable accompanists do take a concert a few notches higher.

Rajesh, the man who calls a spade a spade, who brought in details of the duration of rAgA exposition, tAnam etc, is forming his new index. A few reviews from him with the index will make me understand this concept fully.

narayan · Post by **narayan** » 13 Jan 2010, 18:57

For all his tough talk, I suspect rajeshnat will happily accept a lot of concerts with low panic index, and forgive a number of maverick singers. He's too much of a lover of music, per se, it appears. I like the few places where he said "leave it to the artiste" ...! For me, that is all of my expectation (i.e. the artiste should do precisely what he or she likes - once I go to listen, I'm in).
Just a point: Maragatavallim had a neraval by KVN one time, in the first line of the charanam, and even the madhyamakala line permits neraval for those who like that sort of thing.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 13 Jan 2010, 19:16

the man who calls a spade a spade,

Well, in concert reviews, as against concert recordings, one cannot just say, "there was a spade" -- all one gets to say is, "there was this beautiful, intricate shape" or that "there was this ugly shape there", etc.

Moreover, short concerts often need even more planning, since you get less time to bring out your best.

bhaktha · Post by **bhaktha** » 13 Jan 2010, 22:25

rajeshnat wrote:
musicfan_4201 wrote: For example listen to the DKJ-VVS-UKS concert held in Trivandrum. The main piece is mahadeva shiva sambho (revathi). No raga alapana but it stands tall. Ofcourse the sub-main in lalitha has an alapana But I have listened to many concerts of DKJ specially without a single alapana or an rtp and they have been just fabulous. Again perhaps my likes are different, I give more importance to a kriti than an pallavi (which is more of showcasing the technical expertise of an artist)
DO you have the same satisfaction of DKJ trivandrum to say semmangudi -airport concert

"Aazham" (depth) matters most to me. It's best to go with an open mind and let the music sink in, without prior expectations. Expectations will very seriously jeopardise objective reviewing. In fact, such indices will only add to the many pointless parameters that we, as rasikas and critics, have set for artistes of the present day.

On a side note, I would have been thoroughly contented even if Sri DKJ had sung only kritis (without any hint of R,N,S) in all of his concerts. His rendition of the kriti mahadeva shiva shambho, sans R,N,S, is enough for a lifetime.

kharaharapriyajanyam · Post by **kharaharapriyajanyam** » 14 Jan 2010, 11:31

Sorry if this is harsh but I think rasikas expect just too much from artistes these days. We whine that no youngsters come forward to carry on the art or no youngster likes it and continues it. We also lay our own ten commandments for artistes to follow. Don't you think this is too much? Planning a concert entirely lies in the artistes' hands and we cannot set standards and indices! The OP says this is used to give more 'classicism' to a concert. Don't you think classicism varies across periods? What may have been classical 50 years ago is not classical today! Just because Semmangudi sang kharaharapriya, varali, sriranjani,mukhari,todi,harikambhoji,vasantha and bhavapriya in one concert, that does not mean it was classical!
Even if TMK sings half of the above mentioned ragas in a concert, it would seem classical! The term 'classicism' itself has varied meanings according to the context. What do you mean by classicism? Singing todi ,kharaharapriya ,shankarabharanam ,varali and bhairavi? Well that is not classicism!

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 14 Jan 2010, 12:34

Having set menus for the concerts is not going to help in anyway to improve classism. This purely depends on the artists and his knowledge and his presentation skills. Having an RTP pr not should not be a benchmark to define a classism.
It is a futile exercise to argue further!

makham · Post by **makham** » 14 Jan 2010, 12:42

We seem to be intent on counting what does not count for the only reason that it is countable. In this process we miss counting what really counts. Let us not have a Six Sigma specification next !!

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 12:57

i am just countering my points on shankar's (dikshitar)post in GV's thread here

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 12:59

Dikshitar wrote:Just trying to understand/validate panic index with reference to this review. While the PI scrore is 1, the concert rating is "very good"- lets say 3 or 3.5 on a scale of 5.

1. Does it mean that a concert that is supposedly (according to PI) low on classical quotient can still pass off as a very good concert? On the contrary, a concert that has all the elements of CM in good proportions and comes out as a sub standard concert gets a PI of 5? I'm still struggling to understand what PI actually measures in the overall scheme of things.

Thanks shankar for replying , that too your views as a performing musician is welcome. As I told before ,panic index will likely supplement the overall quality because it gives me a more wholesomeness . Certainly just because a panic index of 5 is achieved that certainly does not automatically qualify it is a great high quality concert.

For me as a rasika , I always believe singing elaborate numbers that too with a rAgam,neraval and swarams in the same krithi not fragment that R N S itself in more than one krithis as continuity in the same krithi is where it gives me a feeling of immense wholesomeness and satisfaction. Also an RTP and a fairly expanded viruththam or slOkham adds a great sense of wholesomeness(especially tAnam) . I am just working backwards to state if musicians adhere 4 of that and where there is a likely chance of that to be a 3 hour concert if they adhere to the first four is what gives me a sense of wholesomeness.

Overall in a nutshell ,panic index is indicative of wholesomeness and very likely will result in a high quality concert. I want to state in words a certain degree of reinforcement of concert paddhati.

BTW if I am hearing semmangudi - airport concert and say reviewing may be I will end up saying outstanding plus plus

or better yet all the reviews that I have reviewed before you can internally reduce a half or one point then what I had written , in the sense if I had said very good ,it is actually good if at all I benchmark with this semmangudi-airport like concert.

Dikshitar wrote: - Most concerts do not extend beyond 2 or 2.5 hours. To be able to present a comprehensive RTP, we need a min of 1 hour. Also we'd have to consider factors like audience, venue and occasion.

The PI seems to be based on Ariyakudi's concert format. No doubt it is very successful today. But artists can certainly innovate the concert format and can end up having a successful concert. It might not contain all the elements in equal proportions, but still can be rated a highly classical concert.

While I do get your point and to an extent agree that the concert provides a wholesome experience when all elements are present in good proportions, there are practical limitations in adhering to this.

On a side note, its quite a snazzy term though I feel it needs more refinement to be put to use.

- V Shankar

I see there is a likely chance of Panic index getting satisfied in a 2 and half hours (provided no speeches, no long tani of say more than 15 minutes etc ), for 2 hours it is almost impossible. As such I am only suggesting panic index for a nirvana concerts ,where if the concerts are open ended musicians can go for roughly 3 hours to go for 2 sets of R N S , RTP and viruththam - slokham.

My intent is only to work backwards where in order to achieve a wholesomeness , I want musicians to take this panic index as a nice guideline.

When you state "audience , venue and occassion all count" , exactly I want to humbly suggest dont bother about responsivenes of audience ,venue , occassion etc, MDR or soMU did not bother at all. Tell the sabha patron that i want to sing more and have all this in my concert,slowly and steadily more and more rasikas will appreciate the wholesomeness . If a musician has a train to catch or if he/she is bit not feeling well fair enough, but when it is a normal sunshine day and if the concert is of nirvana type , I want musicians to give this wholesomeness of panic index being 5 .

Sidenote:
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I am sure you have heard semmangudi -airport's concert , after singing submain , many many mini submains, main and rtp and few great tukkadAs, semmangudi sings a beautiful slokham shringAram and wraps up with sapAsya kausalyam close to roughly 3 and half hours and incidentally he tells "innum pAdindE irukkalAm pOlirukkE"(i feel like singing more and more), that's to me a feeling of wholesomeness that was first felt by the musician himself and thenit moved to rasikas. To a great extent I am believing semmangudi mAmA must have felt let me get more absorbed and I am just extrapolating that semmangudi just wanted to adhere to panic index then , and that is why he sang till the last and brought up a lovely slokham and kept up the wholesomeness.

makham · Post by **makham** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:11

It would be amusing if artists add on their cards "ISO 9001 certified" (documented processes for concert planning and execution) or Assessed at Level 5 of the panic index a la CMMI. As amusing as if a spouse says "Your love index has fallen from 4 to 3 over the last quarter".

Nature & Fine Arts are subjective & qualitative and we enjoy them for that very reason. Science & Engineering are objective and quantitative and we benefit from them for this very reason.

I am only concerned that listening to a concert and reviewing a concert should not become "inspecting" a concert and "auditing" a concert.

Sathej · Post by **Sathej** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:13

While I agree that the SSI Airport concert has a very good list as such and was rendered well, I suppose perceptions of things like wholesomeness, classicism and so on hugely differ. For instance, though I very eagerly look forward to an RTP in concerts, I get put off if its an RTP of less than 45 minutes and rendered in a simple Adi 2 Kalai sans Trikalam. And singing Pallavis too often after extensive homework doesn't appeal a lot. I remember BMK saying (when asked why he doesn't sing Pallavis too often) that he doesn't enjoy singing a prepared Pallavi overtly and that he indulges in it only if it fancies him right there on stage. Further, there have been numerous occasions when I've come back with a wholesome and immensely satisfying feeling just because of one single Krithi rendered impeccably (at times even without an ANS), no matter how the rest of the concert went. So, the feeling of wholesomeness by itself may differ from person to person. I have enjoyed many concerts to the same extent as the SSI airport one, though many of them contained half the number of songs and at times no RTP.

Sathej

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:21

HarishankarK wrote:
My suggestion is to provide quantifiable parameters in terms of time as i have given in above example and also giving points to various items included in a concert like - Padam and Javali - 4 points and Shlokam and vriththam - 4 points etc and then get a total for each concert to arrive at a Panic Index if at all an index or a score is needed - Many will say music has indefinable qualities and parameters which cannot be capatured within these crude measurements. Agreed but since a idea on Panic Index has been started am only suggesting it to be made more tangible and measurable otherwise the index will not be accurate.

HarishankarK
I am just replying all related to panic index in this thread. Between padam vs javali vs say a tukkada krithi like enna thavam seidhenai or sapasyA kausalyAm , I per se dont see any difference , to me tukkadas have to be there period, any choice with or without thillana,padam , javali or a plain krithi , leave it to the musicians , i have no preference there

I only insist a viruththam or slokham or ugabhooga because the emotiveness and words are more felt by me (thamizh definitely other languages i kind of extrapolate). So that is necessary and hence it is one of the points for Panic index.

In general just few points about me:
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As such each of the reviews i just put the minutes to give a sense of completeness for the other rasikas who are not present . as such dont think i am defining quality just by minutes of alApana ,neraval or swaras , even though more sangathis you sing there is big chance that there will be more quality.

As such I will go with the usual overall rating , but this panic index is more a measure of wholesomeness comformity.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:30

makham wrote:It would be amusing if artists add on their cards "ISO 9001 certified" (documented processes for concert planning and execution) or Assessed at Level 5 of the panic index a la CMMI.
Nature & Fine Arts are subjective & qualitative and we enjoy them for that very reason. Science & Engineering are objective and quantitative and we benefit from them for this very reason.

I am only concerned that listening to a concert and reviewing a concert should not become "inspecting" a concert and "auditing" a concert.

Makham,
I dont want u to equate to auditing or anything like that. BTW I am just opening a new leaf called panic index, just as a humble suggestion to point out specifics to define more wholesomeness.

How will we get consistent quality when there is no reinforcement of concert structure and when there is excess fragmentation?

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 14 Jan 2010, 13:43

rajeshnat wrote:
makham wrote:It would be amusing if artists add on their cards "ISO 9001 certified" (documented processes for concert planning and execution) or Assessed at Level 5 of the panic index a la CMMI.
Nature & Fine Arts are subjective & qualitative and we enjoy them for that very reason. Science & Engineering are objective and quantitative and we benefit from them for this very reason.

I am only concerned that listening to a concert and reviewing a concert should not become "inspecting" a concert and "auditing" a concert.
Makham,
I hate all this iso cmm and all that nonsense . I am an IT guy and I hate auditors and inspectors , they only slow down things. BTW I am just opening a new leaf called panic index, just as a humble suggestion to point out specifics to define more wholesomeness.

How will we get consistent quality when there is no reinforcement of concert structure and when there is excess fragmentation?

Rajesh
You seem to be shooting off your mouth. No profession is demeaning. It is extremely wrong to say (just because u r an IT guy), other professions such as Inspecting / auditing .... are a waste of time or they tend to slow down things!
First of all let me reiterate again, you cannot benchmark a concert the way it should be performed, classism personification by way of pallavi singing etc. Also rating a concert is highly a subjective exercise due to likes and dislikes of a listener.
You seem to be harping on the same irrespective of many not buying your idea and now you are hoitting on professions. That is not right !!

BTW why do you require consistent quality. This is not a sambar from Saravana Bhavan. Can you eat the same quality sambar day in and day out. You will start hating it. Similarly no concert need to be in a specified format. Let the artist have the freedom to decide than making it a norm.

Mind you, the financial mess that this world is facing today has been due to lack of control mechasims or check and balance and the greed of a few individuals who have created the mess!! So do not hate controllers

kharaharapriyajanyam · Post by **kharaharapriyajanyam** » 14 Jan 2010, 14:07

rajeshnat wrote:
Makham,
I hate all this iso cmm and all that nonsense . I am an IT guy and I hate auditors and inspectors , they only slow down things. BTW I am just opening a new leaf called panic index, just as a humble suggestion to point out specifics to define more wholesomeness.

How will we get consistent quality when there is no reinforcement of concert structure and when there is excess fragmentation?

Without auditors and inspectors, how will a business flourish? I don't seem to understand your point at all! Not only does it demean auditors, it is difficult to interpret. Not only are your specific posts confusing but your whole usage of the english language is rather flat. Please don't feel offended. This is just an old man's humble suggestion for your benefit.

And I am still unable to understand what you mean by 'fragmentation'? What does that mean?

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 14:11

fragmentation is one in which instead of going with a submain like R N S a musician splits a raga and swara in one song and takes only the neraval in the third song etc in short singing more with rAgabhavam in one krithi is what I am talking about and not splitting it.

It is a blip about inspectors ( musicfan and kharaharapriyajanyam )when makham wrote about that , it was my reply (if you work in a software company and if you sit for a ISO audit you will know what I am talking about). I will delete that portion , so let us not sidetrack with that point .

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 14:25

musicfan_4201 wrote: First of all let me reiterate again, you cannot benchmark a concert the way it should be performed, classism personification by way of pallavi singing etc. Also rating a concert is highly a subjective exercise due to likes and dislikes of a listener.
You seem to be harping on the same irrespective of many not buying your idea ...

BTW why do you require consistent quality. This is not a sambar from Saravana Bhavan. Can you eat the same quality sambar day in and day out. You will start hating it. Similarly no concert need to be in a specified format. Let the artist have the freedom to decide than making it a norm.

I think you have not got what I am writing ,no body is harping the same point here i just clarified few other posts period, at times we just have to slightly repeat and reiterate what we said again.

Again and again jumping back to statements "everything is subjective it all depends on likes and dislikes of the listener " is all well taken and everyone inclusive of you and I understand it . When ariyakudi himself has defined a kutcheri paddhati which for the next 100 years everyone follows it , why cant I just define what is lacking ,as a rasikA I have genuinely felt it.

Let us leave the sambAr analogy out.

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 14 Jan 2010, 14:49

RTPs as frequently as concerts would surely become stressful and boring beyond a point! I am not very fond of "filling up" the pallavi with many ragams, and yet, if a ragam I don't like very much is chosen for a pallavi, that is another kind of problem.

But the point about an RNS submain is good, though. It offers an alternative "highlight of the day" -- especially if the main turns out to be boring. I wouldn't mind if there was one more tani for that too!

Many people like RTPs because they tAnams: I would very much like some RTK(riti)s, as we get them in veena concerts. Tanam before a non-main item is also welcome!

I would like either main or submain (or pallavi) to be in a vakra rAgam.

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 14 Jan 2010, 15:53

rajeshnat wrote:fragmentation is one in which instead of going with a submain like R N S a musician splits a raga and swara in one song and takes only the neraval in the third song etc in short singing more with rAgabhavam in one krithi is what I am talking about and not splitting it.

It is a blip about inspectors ( musicfan and kharaharapriyajanyam )when makham wrote about that , it was my reply (if you work in a software company and if you sit for a ISO audit you will know what I am talking about). I will delete that portion , so let us not sidetrack with that point .

Without ISO, you guys will not be able to compete / do business in the International arena. So do not crib about ISO either. As you require certain standards in concerts, ISO does the same to ensure business is process driven and process oriented (in case you are not aware).
Certain professions have been in existence / evolved over a period to meet certain requirements.
So lets try to get to work than analysing/dissecting without a clear objective!

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Jan 2010, 16:19

Unfortunately, ISO does nothing to ensure customer satisfaction. I have always thought of it as a complete joke. I'm sure that the panic index will do more for music lovers than ISO 9001 ever did for business. It is all part of the self-serving consultancy culture.

But I can not think of many things I'd rather not discuss, especially here --- so, why on earth am I discussing it!

Divya Gopalan · Post by **Divya Gopalan** » 14 Jan 2010, 17:28

This panic index seems to have created a lot of panic in the forum =D. It'll be nice if we can confine the discussion to the PI rather than deviate to ISO, software etc...Cheers & Happy pongal everyone!!

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 14 Jan 2010, 18:14

In place of RTP, sometimes I prefer the RT-Kriti. Vidwans such as Manakkal do this often, and it's a welcome change.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Jan 2010, 18:18

Divya Gopalan wrote:This panic index seems to have created a lot of panic in the forum =D.

As long as musicians dont panic on the concert stage it is fine

musicfan_4201 · Post by **musicfan_4201** » 14 Jan 2010, 21:01

Rajesh
BTW How did 'Nirvana evolve in the scheme of CM presentation. I am unable to decipher. And the 'PANIC'.
Suggest, for a fruitful discussion, (if you like), change the DEFINITION and the TITLE.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 14 Jan 2010, 21:15

musicfan_4201 wrote:Rajesh
BTW How did 'Nirvana evolve in the scheme of CM presentation. I am unable to decipher.

Nirvana also means state of complete peace, you attain that state only if the artists are indeed given more time to sing in open ended concerts where the closing time of concerts can atleast go for close to 3 hours or more, not cramped morning , afternoon slots where always the next artist is waiting - which is non nirvana?

I will be on and off the forum for the next few days due to commitment elsewhere.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 14 Jan 2010, 22:56

cienu wrote:
Divya Gopalan wrote:This panic index seems to have created a lot of panic in the forum =D.
As long as musicians dont panic on the concert stage it is fine

Panic comes when another artist and their crew are waiting behind for starting their concert as if they are ready to push you out!

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Jan 2010, 23:15

Rajesh: Though "pancha-nirvanA carnatic - Panic" is cute and clever, everytime I look at the title of the thread, it sends jitters through my system

We need a new acronym.

How about Pannicar, Panicar, Pannir, etc... I like Pannir better since it goes well with the positive feeling you are aiming at.

ragam-talam · Post by **ragam-talam** » 16 Jan 2010, 13:32

Pranic healing, Pranic breathing, Pranic index, etc come to mind...

oops, you meant Panic!

PUNARVASU · Post by **PUNARVASU** » 16 Jan 2010, 14:40

In 'panic' you rememberd 'prANa'.

That is the way it should be.

Divya Gopalan · Post by **Divya Gopalan** » 16 Jan 2010, 15:55

On a humorous note, I visualized the entire thread and it felt like an old MGR movie sword fight - MGR aptly and single-handedly tackling a bunch of other swordsmen, who are trying to give an equally tough fight!!

mridhangam · Post by **mridhangam** » 18 Jan 2010, 12:33

cienu wrote:
Divya Gopalan wrote:This panic index seems to have created a lot of panic in the forum =D.
As long as musicians dont panic on the concert stage it is fine

then we may request rajesh sir to create a REAL PANIC Index with varying degrees ... when they fail on stage .. when you see a Mahavidwan making an entry there will be a Panic in the minds of the artistes ... even adhi talam will not come properly ...

J.Balaji