sabApathikku vERu deivam

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 23 Feb 2008, 18:31

Recently I had the chance to listen to a seasoned artist perform Sabapathikku veru deivam, the well known composition in abhogi.
I was quite surprised to see that "oru tharam siva chidambaram..." was chosen for neraval.

Does this make sense. Any good reason why what is supposed give salvation upon uttering once (according to the composer) is repeated countless times as neraval? It might even make sense to even eliminate sangathis for this line in keeping with the sentiment expressed.

Any views anyone?

Kamalamba

sbala · Post by **sbala** » 23 Feb 2008, 19:35

Nice observation, Kamalamba..However, I feel that we should not interpret the sahitya literally and constrain it from being used in various forms of creative expressions.

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 23 Feb 2008, 22:02

I agree sbala.

If you literally interpret the songs , then no artist can sing " Nidhitsala Sukhama" as most have taken music as a profession. If I recollect right MMI has never sung this song. I do not know about TVS though.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Feb 2008, 07:42

I was quite surprised to see that "oru tharam siva chidambaram..." was chosen for neraval

You need not have been.
That line does not imply invoking the name once within that particular rendering.The Poet really does not believe single utterances give salvation .He is simply pointing out to the significance of a single passionate utterance....

That way one could argue why Rama Nee Samanamevaru has to be repeated, when the poet is already sure that Rama is superior and so on.
The poetic license that is allowed to singers (like MMI quoted above) make them sing this line in a demanding manner , then changing to cajoling , complaining, then on to a manner filled with pride as to who is equal to you etc etc.
Exactly why these krithis are not read .
And sung instead.

Or consider MM Iyer singing "Ethineyo Pirvaee Edithen" in a amazing number of tortuous modes( I once counted 79 times in one neraval)
And end up getting a response from the Lord , "One more will not make difference, does it?"

Or we may all get busy with calculators totalling Crores when "Kotee Kotee " is invoked.

Neraval is the only place where the singer comes into large unexplored territory , not defined by line and compass.
For Gods sake let us leave him alone..

MDR repeats this line only four times here.
http://rapidshare.com/files/94424364/MDRR.mp3.html
The third and Fourth time, he is hammering the thought down my insensible head !!
I wish he had done it a 100 times.

coolkarni · Post by **coolkarni** » 24 Feb 2008, 10:01

And our Dear Old Friend , Manakkal Senior has his own way of giving this line , his interpretation..
http://rapidshare.com/files/94428990/ma ... i.mp3.html

And I am now beginning to veer around to the thought that the choice of the neraval line indicates what the artist believes is the CRUX OF THE KRITHI.
Kamalamba
Thanks for making us think about this issue.For somebody like me who has always envied the status of Sriranjini in CM , my sympathies have always been with Abhogi .
Your post has made me listen to Sabhapathikku , all morning.
And I am craving for more.

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 24 Feb 2008, 10:34

And such a gem of a kruti--musically too, the nereval line is perfect to buzz around, and how many possibilities are there for an adept singer! However, the line to me says that He is so easy to please that uttering His name once is enough for Him--the realization of being moved by HIs bounty makes you sing the line with more fervor. His greatness and in being moved by it, you want to sing and hear it more and more. Musically of course, the line is MADE for neraval. The whole song blossoms.
To analyse a song line by line takes away the beauty of it...

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 24 Feb 2008, 13:37

Thanks all for the views.
Kamalamba

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 24 Feb 2008, 22:51

coolkarni wrote:And I am now beginning to veer around to the thought that the choice of the neraval line indicates what the artist believes is the CRUX OF THE KRITHI.

I could not agree more here...and to me, the technique of SSI/MSS nereval singing is the most highly evolved one (just my personal opinion). I don't appreciate the style where, after the composition is rendered, the artist goes back to a nereval line - almost like, 'oops, I forgot! got to go back and fix that one'. Again, just my personal opinion....

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 25 Feb 2008, 09:40

Curious that you should say that, Ravi. I feel the same way too with most krutis when the neraval comes across as an after-thought (which may not be so). When I thought a bit more about it, it seems that I don't mind it when it comes to certain songs and they are mostly sanskrit ones or the lines do not have an emotional charge. For instance, a nAmAvaLi kind of line. The oddest after-the-song neraval would be when the line is a plaintive cry and the caraNam ends with reconciliation and the plea starts all over again!

sindhu · Post by **sindhu** » 25 Feb 2008, 11:48

I have heard some artists sing neraval at 'KrupAnidhi ivaraippOlE'.

There seems to be a story behind this great song sabhApathkku vEru deivam

Saint TyAgarajA and GKB used to meet frequently those days and discuss about music. Once, SwAmigaL sang that Manasu nilpa in aabhogi. Hearing and appreciating the song, GKB was supposed to have composed sabhApathikku and sung 'krupAnidhi ivaraippOlE kidaikkumO inda tAraNi tannil' - referring to Saint tyAgaraja.

sarisamAna mahAnubhAvulu..

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 30 Mar 2009, 22:59

kamalamba wrote:Recently I had the chance to listen to a seasoned artist perform Sabapathikku veru deivam, the well known composition in abhogi.
I was quite surprised to see that "oru tharam siva chidambaram..." was chosen for neraval.

Does this make sense.
Kamalamba

Yes. It does make sense. The 'oru dharam' mentioned in any krithi or slOkam, not only shiva but on any deity or dhEvathA, refers to siddhi.

We should chant or render till we attain siddhi, then the "singing once and getting done" will work for sure.

That is why, when some elderly people (let us not go up to the level of yOgis, thapasvis...) say, thryambakam yajAmahE or some chant like that and bless or touch, it works.

Also, "pOdhumE- is enough" works here accordingly. Whether you tend to attain a siddhi for something materialistic - lOkAyadham or Athma kshEmAm - self realisation will only count.

Say for instance, 100 times of chanting enables your singing a manthram once and getting done a smaller thing or 1, 00,000 times and getting salvation! The numbers may vary depending upon one's concentration, aim (activity to aim at achievement of goal) or how much you spend on the way! (We can see some people save money for venkatAchalapathy and take money for travelling and food from that itself)

So, we should be clear on one thing, that saying once - means the one which you say after pUraNa siddhi.

Remember the reason for naming a medicine 666. They have done so, as they had failed 665 times and only their 666th effort was successful.

If we start looking at meanings of sentences like this, then we should sing dhvaithamu sukhamA - two times and adhvaithamu sukhamA only once!

Sometimes, I think what is the reason to include mudhra in a krithi...
If you sing Adhi shankarA's verses, you feel as if you sing that. But, the krithis make you think of the composer. You might be singing nE pogada or karuNai seivAi as a prayer of yours, but, the composer's name may (if you be aware) disturb you.

That is why, when beejAksharAs or manthrAs are given as upadhESam, the guru never tells the meaning of it or the words are so, that you will find it difficult to get the meaning for it from normal sources.

1. Meaning is a hurdle for concentration as it gives you "connected thoughts"

2. It is the vibration or sound that counts and not the meaning. Just like, if you translate and call me pAmbarasan or snake king I won't look at you and only the sound nagaraj makes me turn towards you.

[dear moderators, do change the topic as "sabhApathikku vERu dheivam" it reads 'very']

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 31 Mar 2009, 06:33

Thanks for that lovely explanation.
MOD: Thanks for changing the name of the topic!:) I do know that sabhApati is aka pittan and peyan, but very/veri deivam was getting to be rather tough to stomach!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 31 Mar 2009, 20:07

Nagaraj ! Thanks for reviving an old thread with such a lovely explanation

Ravi That was "veri" difficult to stomach indeed

cmlover · Post by **cmlover** » 31 Mar 2009, 21:20

Aren't you glad that it was not typed originally as 'veRi'

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 31 Mar 2009, 22:07

sindhu wrote:I have heard some artists sing neraval at 'KrupAnidhi ivaraippOlE'.

There seems to be a story behind this great song sabhApathkku vEru deivam

Saint TyAgarajA and GKB used to meet frequently those days and discuss about music. Once, SwAmigaL sang that Manasu nilpa in aabhogi. Hearing and appreciating the song, GKB was supposed to have composed sabhApathikku and sung 'krupAnidhi ivaraippOlE kidaikkumO inda tAraNi tannil' - referring to Saint tyAgaraja.

sarisamAna mahAnubhAvulu..

I've heard that this happened when GKB met Thyagaraja for the first time. When Thyagaraja wanted GKB to sing a song GKB sang this. Experts can clarify.

baboosh · Post by **baboosh** » 01 Apr 2009, 12:03

chalanata wrote:
sindhu wrote:I have heard some artists sing neraval at 'KrupAnidhi ivaraippOlE'.

There seems to be a story behind this great song sabhApathkku vEru deivam

Saint TyAgarajA and GKB used to meet frequently those days and discuss about music. Once, SwAmigaL sang that Manasu nilpa in aabhogi. Hearing and appreciating the song, GKB was supposed to have composed sabhApathikku and sung 'krupAnidhi ivaraippOlE kidaikkumO inda tAraNi tannil' - referring to Saint tyAgaraja.

sarisamAna mahAnubhAvulu..
I've heard that this happened when GKB met Thyagaraja for the first time. When Thyagaraja wanted GKB to sing a song GKB sang this. Experts can clarify.

Dr.U.V.Swaminathaiyer has recounted that in His Charitham where he mentions that GKB went to pay respect to Tyagaraja and on being queried by Tyagaraja whether he has composed in Abhogi,GKB went for his midday ablutions and on return he came with Sabhapathikku composed

inconsequential · Post by **inconsequential** » 01 Apr 2009, 12:40

rshankar wrote:I could not agree more here...and to me, the technique of SSI/MSS nereval singing is the most highly evolved one (just my personal opinion). I don't appreciate the style where, after the composition is rendered, the artist goes back to a nereval line - almost like, 'oops, I forgot! got to go back and fix that one'. Again, just my personal opinion....

Dear srI rshankar,
this seems to have been the neraval singing style among (all or most of) the yester year stalwarts - be it "tApatraya hara nipuNa, sumati tyAgarAja, vAsavAdi sakala dEva, kumAra guruguha mahitam, dadhi navanIta kShIramulu ruciyO, vAnimATalaku, rAja rAja vara rAjIvAkSha vinu, kAalinil cilambu, tamizhnADu seithava payanAi vandavar, rAga tALa gatulanu pADucunu, padhuta pakka bhajiyincE, sangIta vAdya vinOda tANDava jAta bahutara, karAmbuja pAsha bIjApUram, dINa rakShakam pUjita vaidyanAtha kShEtram, bhakta parAdInuDanucu, badari vanamUla nAyikA sahita...." oh, the list is endless. Finishing the song and going back to a particular line (and hence, making it very tiresome and boring) is a practice that has crept up sometime in late '80s or '90s - i don't know when.

Regarding repeating a particular line - whose meaning indicates 'one utterance is enough' could also be interpreted as 'the first utterance is for the said goal' - the remaining ones are for the nAma ruci. In any case, even the simplest of lessons in life require repetition - to get the point across.

regards
-r.varadharajan

ksrimech · Post by **ksrimech** » 01 Apr 2009, 21:04

rshankar wrote: I could not agree more here...and to me, the technique of SSI/MSS nereval singing is the most highly evolved one (just my personal opinion). I don't appreciate the style where, after the composition is rendered, the artist goes back to a nereval line - almost like, 'oops, I forgot! got to go back and fix that one'. Again, just my personal opinion....

But bhUlOka vaikuNTam neraval is an exception and simply SSI/MSS names are written along with this. bhaktilEni kavijAlavarENyulu is also another. Most of the other cases the neraval gets finished before the song.

Can't agree more with SrI varadA.

rshankar · Post by **rshankar** » 01 Apr 2009, 21:24

Inconsequential/Sri Varadarajan:

Thanks for that explanation. I have heard a few singers in the 70's who used to finish the song and go back to a line for a nereval - can't readily remember examples. However, you are right about this practice having become more of the norm recently.

mahesh_narayan · Post by **mahesh_narayan** » 01 Apr 2009, 22:19

Nedunuri Sir always finishes the song and then goes back for the neraval. I, in fact, find it more appealing (maybe due to my predilection for Nedunuri Sir and his music:). In Sir's case, since he has has spent a lifetime reworking and embellishing each and every kriti with exquisite sangatis, it sounds very wholesome when he renders kritis in one go. However, when someone like MSS Amma or KVN Sir sings, the kriti-neraval-remaining kriti sounds very logical, since neraval was their forte, and they took to it like fish to water. Raga and kritis were Nedunuri Sir's strongholds and usually he spent the maximum time in these two areas (along with his trademark one avarthana swaras). In short, I think the practice seems appropriate or not, depending on the particular artiste's style, and the already built-up momentum at the start of the item (including raga alapana, if any). A kriti like vAderA daivamu manasa would perfectly accomodate a neraval in-between, since the momentum is already there, but a kriti like mari mari ninne or abhayAmbA would probably sound better if sung uninterruptedly, because of the grandeur and the sangatis.

inconsequential · Post by **inconsequential** » 02 Apr 2009, 10:08

Dear mahesh_narayan

Very true. Yes, it is a combination of the artist's style, kAlapramANam and grandeur of the songs. am an ardent fan of nEdunUrigAru's AlApanais and krthi renditions. - r.varadharajan

prashant · Post by **prashant** » 02 Apr 2009, 10:20

mahesh_narayan wrote:A kriti like vAderA daivamu manasa would perfectly accomodate a neraval in-between, since the momentum is already there, but a kriti like mari mari ninne or abhayAmbA would probably sound better if sung uninterruptedly, because of the grandeur and the sangatis.

Great point!!! Breaking up big krithis also leads to some 'fatigue' [for want of a better word] while rendering the balance portion of a krithi. shri subrahmaNyAya namastE I find is one krithi that many times suffers from this syndrome. After expansive niraval at vAsavAdi, the CaraNam 'tAraka simha' etc gets short shrift sometimes.

kamalamba · Post by **kamalamba** » 04 Apr 2009, 13:31

I had been travelling for over 2 weeks and completely missed all this discussion.

Thanks Erode Sir and others for nice explanations.