Kanjira, the Monitor Lizard, CM and Animal Rights

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Feb 2007, 20:55

thats a good one. I used to tell my colleagues - "when you try to catch it to eat it, does it try to run away?". But yours is much better

Arun

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:01

srinidhi wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:I need for silk...
If you come across one, do let me know.

What is wrong with polyester/nylon/rayon/cotton and any combination of all or some of these? Don't tell me you want the exact chemical composition of silk. You only want the feel of it!

On second thought, if you wait for a while longer you may get a very similar (but not exact) composition to that of silk. Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength. Scientists are reproducing it in the lab in small quantities now. Eventually it may be made on a large scale for fabric production. The spiders won't be killed for that--rest assured--although many women who are scared of it would like that. The gene is cloned and then the polypeptide is made (silk by the way is a polypeptide).

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:04

arunk wrote:thats a good one. I used to tell my colleagues - "when you try to catch it to eat it, does it try to run away?". But yours is much better

Arun

A piece of meat or dead fish or chicken sold in the supermarket does not run away when someone grabs it. So it is OK!:P

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:07

it probably did when the trawler caught it or probably would if it knew it was going to be caught.

Arun

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 13 Feb 2007, 21:11

mahakavi wrote:
srinidhi wrote:
Suji Ram wrote:I need for silk...
If you come across one, do let me know.
What is wrong with polyester/nylon/rayon/cotton and any combination of all or some of these? Don't tell me you want the exact chemical composition of silk. You only want the feel of it!

On second thought, if you wait for a while longer you may get a very similar (but not exact) composition to that of silk. Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength. Scientists are reproducing it in the lab in small quantities now. Eventually it may be made on a large scale for fabric production. The spiders won't be killed for that--rest assured--although many women who are scared of it would like that. The gene is cloned and then the polypeptide is made (silk by the way is a polypeptide).

I was going to type something similar. I was in the same dept where people were working on silkworms. But there was no "spin off"

ravi2006 · Post by **ravi2006** » 14 Feb 2007, 03:51

jayaram wrote:I've heard this story doing the rounds a few years ago in the U.S. - not sure if apocryphal or not.

This Gujju lady would fast one day a week when she would do extra pooja...her son would bring special french fries for her from McD....and she would keep the fries as prasadam infront of god's image before eating them...only to later find that McD used to add beef flavor in their french fries! I believe they sued McD for false advertising...not sure if they won or not...

Reminds me of when an elderly Mami, strictly vegetarian, visited us in London. Once she went out on her own and returned to tell us how much she had enjoyed a "cheeseburger". We were in a dilemna whether or not to tell her what the "cheese" component actually is. In the end, decided ignorance is bliss.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 14 Feb 2007, 06:05

Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength.

I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 14 Feb 2007, 06:59

I believe that the kanjira is just as available today as it always has been ...to profesional kanjira artists who have long-standing relationships with their makers (err... I mean the kanjira makers, not the artists' gods ).

I agree.. my brother seems to have got one with no problems from Varadan sir in Chennai (of course the price he asked was a bit 'interesting' (no, not in a bad way!) )

bala747 · Post by **bala747** » 14 Feb 2007, 07:02

I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

Would take a LOT of black widows! And correct me if I wrong, but won't a saree from spider silk be rather transparent?

Let's hope good taste prevails!

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 14 Feb 2007, 07:54

jayaram wrote:
Spider silk ( the one the arthropod makes to create a web --not the worldwide-- to trap other insects) is known for its steel-like strength.
I can see it now...men running for cover when a woman wearing spider silk made from a black widow's web enters the room...

I can bet Jayaram will be at the head of the pack!

erode14 · Post by **erode14** » 16 Feb 2007, 11:00

mohan wrote:Umayalpuram Sivaraman has experimented with a fibreglass mridangam. Perhaps his disciple, Sri Erode Nagarajan can give more details about this.

The fiberglass is a substitute for the wood shell only. Uks Sir is working on substitute for other things like moottu(the drum heads) also.

even the tanned skin fails to produce nAdham, so only fresh ones can be used for instruments.

the thing is, we dont kill aniamals for making instruments. the repairers buy it from where they are killed for food.....

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 19:50

konRAl pAvam, tinRAl pOccu!:lol:

arasi · Post by **arasi** » 16 Feb 2007, 19:53

mahakavi,
You would say it is not worth translating

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 20:10

arasi:
Yes, I just wanted to say that without explanation. The fine line between committing a crime and complicity to the crime has been mvoing around. If the supremacy of art beats the complicity in crime we should be forgiven. But my sincere hope is that a substitute is found soon. Years ago DuPont came up with a synthetic leather called Corfam. DuPont intended it for making shoes. For some odd reason the technical success did not translate into commercial success. I wonder if UKS & Co would consider that material instead of cowhide.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:13

Bala... I think the kanjira makers.

Errm, sorry.... the alledged kanjira makers

should remain nameless....

The mridangam requires the skin of three animals; cow, goat and buffalo --- a huge challenge compared to the single lizard skin of a kanjira.

It is a total mystery to me multi-skinned drums such as the mridangam and the tabla evolved and were perfected to give the tone that they give. Perhaps it would be great if non-animal skins could be used, but it seems to me that it would almost be going back to square one. Let us take comfort from Erode's statement that the skins come from animals that have died for food anyway.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:24

I saw this documentary on youtube. I thought it might be an interesting addition to this thread.
Check: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAxvf2Qbnqg

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 21:56

That Youtube video is interesting. They are such skilled craftsmen, no doubt. I wonder if they are also well-versed in all the laya aspects of CM. It is pathetic the fellow said that he couldn't play the drum since his hands get so much hardened by all the physical beating they take in making the mrudangam.

In the Outlook magazine a year or two ago they featured the mrudangam makers in Mylapore and how they contract with the mrudangam vidwans. Apparently the craftsmen bring the finished product to the vidwans' houses and leave them there without any face-to-face contact between the parties. The vidwans deal with third parties for arranging this. That probably is additional solace for the vidwans that they are not a party even indirectly(?) to the killing.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 16 Feb 2007, 22:34

Mahakavi, do you have a link for the Outlook article?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:13

Not right now. But I will locate it soon and post it here.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:40

hahahaha, how coincidental... I happen to know everyone in that video, since that maker (his name is Johnson) has made mrudangams for me and my guru. Incidentally, he is also the mrudangam maker for UKS sir.
It is true that the mrudangam makers wont be able to play the instrument since their hands are hardened and chafed from so much beating and work in making the instrument (it is very labor-intensive!).
And I dont know about how other makers do it, but at least from what I have seen, the repairer will take the vadyam to his shop and do the necessary repairs (replace sadham, pull the vaaru, etc.) and bring it back to the vidwan's house, where he will inspect it, and the repairer can do last-minute adjustments with the artist.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 16 Feb 2007, 23:41

Apparently the craftsmen bring the finished product to the vidwans' houses and leave them there without any face-to-face contact between the parties.

In the youtube video, there is a scene or two of them leaving the mridangam in front of a house.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 17 Feb 2007, 00:15

Yea, I dont know what that is about...

arunk · Post by **arunk** » 17 Feb 2007, 00:22

telling in many fashion.

BTW, did you guys catch other videos from same user? Nice videos from carnatic concerts - from masters of yesterday and today!

Arun

gn.sn42 · Post by **gn.sn42** » 17 Feb 2007, 06:03

Some opinions on the Ganesh Kumar Cooperman kanjira (post #19 above):
http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/ha ... essage/228
http://www.richardsnotes.org/archives/2 ... 8/kanjira/

Has anyone played / heard this (other than the Ganesh Kumar demo)?

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 08:13

mahavishnu wrote:Mahakavi, do you have a link for the Outlook article?

mahavishnu:
I am afraid I cannot locate that article. It appeared in Outlook.India.com more than a year ago. When I went to their website to locate it it is not available anymore since they do not archive articles for a timeframe beyond 6 months. The article's title was "Thyagaraja's cow" or something very similar to it. There they talked about the whole episode of making the mrudangam out of cow's hide including killing the cows of young age for just this purpose so as to have the right texture of the hide. Perhaps cmlover printed it out!

meena · Post by **meena** » 17 Feb 2007, 08:35

Deleted

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 09:27

Here is the link to the Outlook article. "Google" meena got it before I did. This site has some pictures of the mrudangam makers and UKS too. If you are not able to access this article, you may have to register as a user at the outlookindia.com site and then search for this article by the author's name Anand and putting the date as Sept 2003.

PS: There is obviously a problem with the URL as given below. Go to outlookindia.com and then search for the article

http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fn ... 0908&sid=1

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 17 Feb 2007, 14:13

Mahakavi/Meena, thanks for posting the links.

The slaughter of animals for hide is morally repugnant. However, I am equally disturbed by the toll the caste system has taken on the members of society that have to handle animal skin (for all purposes). An interesting discussion on this is presented by Rohinton Mistry in his novel "A fine Balance" where he talks about the plight of Dalits from the Chamar caste who deal with animal hide.

I think Erode Nagaraj-sir & J. Balaji-sir mentioned in an earlier posting about how many mridangam vidwans such as Karaikudi Mani always ask about the causes of death of the animal involved, before employing their skins for the making of instruments. I wonder if the cause of death of these animals actually affects the real "nadham" of a percussion instrument. I would certainly not want to have bad karma hanging around the music.

sankirnam · Post by **sankirnam** » 17 Feb 2007, 14:34

It is unfortunate, but a necessary part of the music. Ironic when you realize that Nandi, who plays mrudangam for Lord Shiva, plays a drum made out of buffalo and calf hides!
I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam", which will be reflected in the superior nadham of the instrument. Taking skin from animals that died of natural causes or otherwise results in an inferior nadham, people will be able to tell that the leather was taken from an "already-dead" animal.
Also, since we have not found a decent substitute for all the skins that can still produce good nadham, we have no other option for the time being. But, the 3/8" synthetic nylon vaaru that is commercially available can replace the leather straps, and in most instances, is actually superior to leather for its temperature and stress tolerances! So there is slightly less animal harm done that way.

mahakavi · Post by **mahakavi** » 17 Feb 2007, 20:43

sankirnam wrote:I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam",

A "jeevan" has to be sacrificed in order to retain the "jeevam" of music. Creative destruction or destructive creation? It appears that certain acts are permissible in the divine design (or is it evolutionary design?). A mother scorpion has to die during the process of the delivery of the young ones, I understand!

chalanata · Post by **chalanata** » 17 Feb 2007, 21:13

i also remember that valayapatti subramanian was trying a new type of thavil which did not have the traditinal 'var' for tightening the drums on both sides but had nuts and bolts. but i'm not sure whether there was any replacement of the animal skins with any fibre kind of thing. it becomes all the more difficult in thavil because normally they keep on tightening the vars periodically to ensure that the nadham is in tact.

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 17 Feb 2007, 23:12

It is unfortunate, but a necessary part of the music.

Are we saying that the music is so essential, that cows (that too healthy and 'shiny-skinned' ones at that) and other animals have to be sacrificed for it?
Do these mridangam makers make a good living at least? Forget about their social status, that will never improve any time.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 17 Feb 2007, 23:29

I hear that the animal has to be killed in order for the skin to retain its "jeevam", which will be reflected in the superior nadham of the instrument.

This disturbed me too since it has the implication that animals are being killed for the specific purpose of making the instruments.

But then Erode Nagaraj wrote before : "the thing is, we dont kill aniamals for making instruments. the repairers buy it from where they are killed for food....."

jayaram · Post by **jayaram** » 18 Feb 2007, 04:53

While on this topic, I understand violin strings used to be made out of sheep guts. Are they still, or do we have alternative (nylon etc.) materials used in CM violins of today? Also, horse hair is also used for the bow, right?

This topic has opened up a pandora's box of sorts...the kriti 'sogasuga' will sound more like 'sOka...' for me from now on.

kaapi · Post by **kaapi** » 18 Feb 2007, 14:10

It used to be said that violin strings are made of cat's guts ( or sheep guts??). However now they are all made of metal are are far superior to the older version both in terms of durability and quality of sound. I think as the technology progressed they have been able to draw thin strings of precise thickness.

ugk · Post by **ugk** » 24 Oct 2010, 08:09

Goodness sake.
This website is terribly designed. When i want to post a comment i have to login. And it redirects me to the index page where i have to find the topic all over again. I go to the search page and that is also virtually useless.
Anyway, i wanted to say that developing non-animal materials is indeed the way forward. Slow is the progress but it is happening.
I use a SUPERB fibreglass mridangam. I prefer it to most wood mridangams i have used. It does give a slightly more metallic sound which some may not like but it is fine for me.
As for the karma aspect of the skins, i say do a prayer to the animals spirit as an apology if it died in the wrong way. May sound stupid to some, but it is worthwhile to me.
I cant speak on Ganjira, but i know it is illegal in some countries because of the monitor lizard skin.
My guru told me that ancient mridangams made of clay sounded very different to wood so that people should not assume that only wood is the right choice.
I am straying a bit on and off topic, but i think it all fits.

rajeshnat · Post by **rajeshnat** » 24 Oct 2010, 08:36

ugk wrote:Goodness sake.
This website is terribly designed. When i want to post a comment i have to login. And it redirects me to the index page where i have to find the topic all over again. I go to the search page and that is also virtually useless.

All bulletin boards in general take after login to the main index page.I suggest you first login which comes right at the top banner and then look into the posts ,that way you can reply instantaneously . Can you suggest that website of a bulletin board that is correctly designed to your spec which is not terrible.

This site encourages all those who want to write to first login and then look at the post if you are interested in avoiding the inconveniance of avoiding redirection to the index page after login.

Search could be better , but still far better than what it was before?

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 24 Oct 2010, 10:14

rshankar wrote: This is what Sudha and I tell our daughter's teacher every year: we try not to eat anything that had a face or a mother! So far, no one has come up with exceptions to this rule.

I like the "cuz its better for health... especially the chicken's" response

BTW, How were you able to embed a quote within another? I thought this was not possible with the current software?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 24 Oct 2010, 15:16

Website design, especially forums, for sites like this, is a case of what comes out of the box, and usually what comes out of free-software box too. For those sites that earn an actual living for their hosts/proprietors, things are different: we are dependent on the time and generosity of one man. Let us be happy!

Interesting that this thread has been resurrected after three years. Only a week or so ago, I was watching one of the younger Kanjira players playing the "usual" traditional instrument, and reflecting that the ban on the use of the lizard skin had had about as much impact as Indian road safety rules do. Perhaps the only difference is that it may be harder for the "general public" to buy the monitor-skin kanjira over a shop counter. I know that was the case, but maybe they too have now forgotten about the law.

Regrettably, technology has not caught up. I was asking a USA-based player, a few months ago, about his experiences: he said that he had tried the synthetic-skin kanjiras, but they were no match in either feel or sound.

As for eating things with parents, well, plants have parents too! Also I cannot forget this saying: Just because you cannot hear it scream does not mean it does not feel pain. But... We have to eat...

thenpaanan · Post by **thenpaanan** » 25 Oct 2010, 03:49

I have always wondered about the "mridang" used in ISKCON bhajans. The sound of that instrument is a bit different from the mridangam but knowing that ISKCON folks generally tend to be very sensitive to these things (especially if the skin has to come from a calf) I wonder if they use a synthetic material instead of animal skin.

Anyone know?

-Then Paanan

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 25 Oct 2010, 09:51

Suji Ram wrote:
I was going to type something similar. I was in the same dept where people were working on silkworms. But there was no "spin off"

Tassar silk is made from the fibers after the silkworm mutates and leaves the cocoon. It is also called "ahimsa silk" since the silkworm is not killed in the process of making yarn from the cocoon.

So, look no further than the nearest store selling Tassar silk.

Sorry, Conjeevaram saris are NOT made from Tassar silk.

srkris · Post by **srkris** » 27 Oct 2010, 03:13

Also I cannot forget this saying: Just because you cannot hear it scream does not mean it does not feel pain.

Now you can forget it knowing that plants do not have a central nervous system and therefore cannot feel pain. The existence of feelings are dependent on the existence of a CNS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_nervous_system

Animals on the other hand, feel the torture when they are slaughtered. Using instruments containing animal parts is no less grotesque than eating food obtained from animal carcasses, except that eating is repetitive.

Suji Ram · Post by **Suji Ram** » 27 Oct 2010, 04:34

Bose said that plants feel pain here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose

"From the analysis of the variation of the cell membrane potential of plants under different circumstances, he deduced the claim that plants can "feel pain, understand affection etc.".

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 27 Oct 2010, 04:41

A tangential point.. Yesterday I read a story that there are taste receptors in the lung.. Yes, in the lung!! And unlike the taste receptors in the tongue, they do not report them to the brain using the CNS. But they react to taste and only to bitter taste. Another surprise, they do not shrink the path ways when they sense a bitter taste but they expand the pathways. Now there is frantic research effort to use this to help out asthma sufferers. ( I do not know how the lung receptors actually get in contact with the bitter stuff, that was not explained. may be just the bitter vegetables' airborne molecules are good enough )

First thought that came to me is, have anyone tried eating bitter vegetables ( pAhakkAi for example ) as a treatment for asthma?
May be someone who has asthmatic troubles should give it a try.

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 06:29

vasanthakokilam wrote:A tangential point.. Yesterday I read a story that there are taste receptors in the lung.. Yes, in the lung!! And unlike the taste receptors in the tongue, they do not report them to the brain using the CNS. But they react to taste and only to bitter taste. Another surprise, they do not shrink the path ways when they sense a bitter taste but they expand the pathways. Now there is frantic research effort to use this to help out asthma sufferers. ( I do not know how the lung receptors actually get in contact with the bitter stuff, that was not explained. may be just the bitter vegetables' airborne molecules are good enough )

First thought that came to me is, have anyone tried eating bitter vegetables ( pAhakkAi for example ) as a treatment for asthma?
May be someone who has asthmatic troubles should give it a try.

An Ayurvedic physician recommended taking pellets of ground fresh raw tender (kozhundu) neem leaves (or, in lieu, the powdered form) in the morning every day for three - six months - said this would cure asthma completely (chronic cases, six months). I asked him are you sure. He said try it, if you or someone has asthma and left his address to be contacted, if needed.

This came like a bolt out of the blue as I was surfing on yahoo answers one day - I felt a renewed sense of acute pain and loss on wondering why this simple effective native medicine was not widely known. The loss of two brilliant uncles who succumbed to asthma, one with additional TB, is still too much to think of.

Now neem is far more than your bitter medicine - its properties and benefits are so startling and wide that the U.S. has not only begun growing these trees in Florida and manufacturing capsules, it even had a battle on patents on its hands. I think Vandana Shiva won over the patents but the U.S. is going full steam ahead in using its discovery.

VK RAMAN · Post by **VK RAMAN** » 27 Oct 2010, 08:29

Udumbu thOl for kanjira is commonly seen. I have seen other skins also used for kanjira. Is there a plastic that can replace the animal skin as some of the western and arabic places similar instruments have a clear thOl. Are they animal skin too?

Always_Evolving · Post by **Always_Evolving** » 27 Oct 2010, 08:58

Been googling on silk and what I find is Tussar is not necessarily Ahimsa silk but it can be. Eri silk is more likely to be Ahimsa silk.
http://www.copperwiki.org/index.php?title=Ahimsa_Silk

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 12:10

VK - please move the posts on silk eg. # 72 and an earlier one from Harimau etc. to the Silk thread in the Lounge. A very interesting topic needs its own thread.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 27 Oct 2010, 12:23

Suji Ram wrote:Bose said that plants feel pain here..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jagadish_Chandra_Bose

Thank you for answering the scientific point in scientific terms.

To that I would add that science is not meant to limit our understanding. Is a "central nervous system" necessary to feelpain? How do we understand pain? Can there be life on Mars? how do we understand life?

As I understand Tussar silk, it is what is called "paper" silk, Isn't this to do with the finish, rather than the origin?

I have to say that I love silk. I am almost as happy in a sari/fabric shop as I am in a concert. Then I have to admit that, when I am enjoying it, the death that is involved in its production does not cross my mind. This is possibly one of the biggest acts of denial in my life. Yesterday, I would not allow my wife to have insecticide sprayed on the garden, because there are some caterpillars that will make splendid moths, yet I do not think of how many moths died to make a sari.

smala · Post by **smala** » 27 Oct 2010, 13:05

...I have to say that I love silk. I am almost as happy in a sari/fabric shop....

My love as well. I could spend hours without food or drink in one. Sad to say I still love all the varieties of pattu but in a measure of remorse will say a small prayer for those lost souls each time I wear one. Those were the days of cotton-sarees only, khadi kurta, no yellow metal either for decades...those were the days..ah, well,we thought they'd never end...sigh!..resurgence in the final lap? Not really. With the yellow metal prices shooting through the roof, you'd literally be caught dead wearing that stuff these days in India, especially in transit. Train heists and getting murdered is everyday consumption.

On the bugs/pests front, it hard to practice ahimsa.

rasikas.org

Kanjira, the Monitor Lizard, CM and Animal Rights

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