Perspective on amateurs accompanying the professionals

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 10:44

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWv3Am-hTRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9mmzfOzHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfrZHseotE

Just to be clear, the mridangam artist you're referring to is the father of Rajna Swaminathan, who no one would claim is an amateur level.He's played well for many senior musicans over the past 25 years and has won accolades for his play without being an organizer. It's not fair to judge such people on the basis of one or two clips when they've had such a large body of work.

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 30 Jan 2011, 11:03

What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 30 Jan 2011, 21:34

mri_fan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWv3Am-hTRE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG9mmzfOzHU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIfrZHseotE

Just to be clear, the mridangam artist you're referring to is the father of Rajna Swaminathan, who no one would claim is an amateur level.He's played well for many senior musicans over the past 25 years and has won accolades for his play without being an organizer. It's not fair to judge such people on the basis of one or two clips when they've had such a large body of work.

Well. You completely miss my point. I was not targeting the 'person' in the accompanist; but his performance, which was really bad and a total lacklustre. If you post me a concert video in which he has played good, I am ready to appreciate it. So please rectify your inclination for passing quick judgments. Also you have missed reading my posts where I have appreciated the performances of several amateurs, including youngsters. All of them are equal strangers for me and there's nothing personal I have to do with them.
I have heard Rajna's playing in several youtube videos and she plays 'consistently' good and I wish she had been put as the accompanist for Pantula Rama (concert link I posted).

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 30 Jan 2011, 21:39

harimau wrote:What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Harimau: I don't quite well understand what you meant here.
If you meant to say that I am calling into question the taste of others or if I am raising improper questions, it is akin to say that the rasikas.org site itself is devoid a-of any criticisms. Also I would suggest you to go through my previous posts in this thread to see how objective and meticulous I have explained this problem and given evidences.
And ( this is perhaps the most cliched sentence here) this site is for expressing one's views and criticisms and if there are opinions or criticisms you don't like personally, it doesn't mean that the person who raised it should be banned !! You are behaving no different than the totalitarian Egyptian government which first cut down the internet, then the mobile phones, wanting to control the people raising questions !!

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 22:03

Well. You completely miss my point. I was not targeting the 'person' in the accompanist; but his performance, which was really bad and a total lacklustre. If you post me a concert video in which he has played good, I am ready to appreciate it. So please rectify your inclination for passing quick judgments. Also you have missed reading my posts where I have appreciated the performances of several amateurs, including youngsters. All of them are equal strangers for me and there's nothing personal I have to do with them.
I have heard Rajna's playing in several youtube videos and she plays 'consistently' good and I wish she had been put as the accompanist for Pantula Rama (concert link I posted).[/quote]

The problem is that overvalue your own rash judgment. The 13 year old boy you showed is playing simply for an easy song. You're suggesting that the 13 year old is "better" because of that? Swaminathan plays better in these videos. I can find examples of great musicians not playing well for a song here or there ... but before you pass judgement you need to spend the time doing your own research.

http://www.youtube.com/user/lswaminatha ... k7X4MWmPXs
http://www.youtube.com/user/lswaminatha ... IPrePO0AE0

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 30 Jan 2011, 22:22

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3w2eLRJvU

Here, the out of tune mridangam and the hard hitting kills thisl song. So I don't think he played well here. Am I ready to say that he shouldn't accompany people? No, because I can see that in other videos he plays better.

sureshvv · Post by **sureshvv** » 31 Jan 2011, 00:38

reethigowla48 wrote:
Harimau: I don't quite well understand what you meant here.

I suspect that he was actually trying to support your argument which you were making convincingly anyway. But now you really should be worried

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:14

mri_fan wrote:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ws3w2eLRJvU

Here, the out of tune mridangam and the hard hitting kills thisl song. So I don't think he played well here. Am I ready to say that he shouldn't accompany people? No, because I can see that in other videos he plays better.

Mri_fan,
You seem to be too picky, to prove your point, while you lose sight of the big picture. By giving the instances of good young mridangists I was not declaring that they should replace all the older mridangists. Just that they also need to be given opportunities in professsional concerts since the older amateur mridangists in US themselves are not well qualified to accompany.
Sri Swaminathan might be a good mridangist in his own right. But whatever you say, I can never agree that his control on mridangam, layam and "tholpattu" (you willknow what this is if you have learnt mridangam) are sufficient enough to accompany such layam-strong singers like Pantula Rama. The concert is not lifted up anywhere. He may be fine with others, with simple songs like Vathapi Ganapathim and so on; while he was not adequate for such vilamaba krithis like the Kapi javali Smt Rama had sung.
So my point is not a direct attack on him or all of his performances; but just the inadequacy of the accompaniment with respect to strong artists like Pantula Rama. I don't think he himself will have any problem admitting this weakness of his.
You can carry on this debate for ever, trying to defend the artists of you know of, while you fail to analyze the phenomenon on the whole. But it is just a futile exercise since my aim is not attacking people. I am aiming only at criticizing the inadequate performance standards of non-seasoned accompanists while they accompany professional musicians from India.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:18

sureshvv wrote: I suspect that he was actually trying to support your argument which you were making convincingly anyway. But now you really should be worried

Sureshvv:
That's for what I put the clause "I don't quite well understand what you meant here.If you meant to say that..."
So if harimau was supporting me figuratively, the rest of my post doesn't apply to him

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 01 Feb 2011, 01:28

harimau wrote:What?

No such thing as DNFTT or calling the original poster a troll?

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those who raise questions you consider improper or whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Harimau: I get your point now

Well. All those sessions have been over already. See the earlier posts for details

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 02 Feb 2011, 06:06

What happened to the usual methods of dealing with those whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music?

Stating the obvious, that violates the dharma 'Loko Binna Ruchi'... There is a big difference between 'I do not like X' and 'you are an idiot for liking X' even if it is offered with all good intentions of preserving and promoting good music. You say idiot, he says troll

There's no accounting for taste... really.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 04 Feb 2011, 08:43

vasanthakokilam wrote: Stating the obvious, that violates the dharma 'Loko Binna Ruchi'... There is a big difference between 'I do not like X' and 'you are an idiot for liking X' even if it is offered with all good intentions of preserving and promoting good music. You say idiot, he says troll

There's no accounting for taste... really.

Dear Vasanthakokilam: I am not sure what you mean above. Let me try to clarify nonetheless. My posts are not intended to glorify the musicians I personally like and to demean the ones I don't. I don't think I need to use this forum for my personal ego satisfaction. For example, I generally don't like briga laden music; which doesn't make me conclude and write publicly that GNB, TN Seshagopal are all trash while Semmangudi, MMI etc are all the good guys. Just to illustrate that I am not playing that kindergarten game here. It is much more than what I may like and dislike personally.
What I have been talking here is about really 'bad' accompaniment by several amateurs in North America, several of whom are self-nominated onto the stage. Here "bad" doesn't mean 'bad" for myself alone; but "bad" in all qualitative and quantitative terms; wholly irrespective of all differences in individual tastes.
My complains are not about stylistic differences or minor cosmetic factors; but much more and only about their severely abysmal performance which make the concerts by top-notch professional musicians like TN Seshagopal, Ravikiran, Pantula Rama etc, totally un-hearable and dissatisfying experiences. Also need to mention that such concerts are mostly ticketed concerts. Logistical problems and financial constraints are often proclaimed as unambiguous reasons for such "self-nominations' onto the concert dias.
So my posts have not at all been about "Loko Binna Ruchi" or a 'troll questioning the taste of others', as your posts seem to conclude (if I am not mistaken)

srikant1987 · Post by **srikant1987** » 04 Feb 2011, 09:09

I think Semmangudi's music itself is quite brigha-laden (I like it all the more for that

).

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 04 Feb 2011, 11:31

reethigowla48, I was referring to harimau's quip about 'usual methods of dealing with those whose opinions call into question your tastes in Carnatic music'.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 04 Feb 2011, 13:58

srikant1987 wrote:I think Semmangudi's music itself is quite brigha-laden (I like it all the more for that ).

srikant1987: No problems, if you believe so. Definitions don't matter much, atleast with respect to the issue raised in this thread. So you can substitute "Semmangudi" in my post with, say, "MDR"

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 10 Feb 2011, 08:38

What the posters here are forgetting is the economics. A typical concer has probably a budget of 1500$. Out of this one has to pay the travel and remunerations. Local hospitality is often taken care of. How can a main artist arrange a "good" pair of accompanists and still make some decent money? Most amateur artists hold good 5-9 jobs and perform only during weekends. They have no time to practice or develop. On the flip side they are willing to perform for free. This ensures that the main artist walks away with at leat 500-600 dollars, a decent money when you convert to rupees. Any protest has to come from the audience who should refuse to attend concerts with arm chair accompanists.
I have verifiable fact where visiting artists come with their own accompanists, charge as much as 2000-3000 dollars for concerts and then pay the accompanists as low as 50$. 50$ in India is 2500 rupees, much more than what the accompanists get in India.So it is a win win game.
The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 10 Feb 2011, 22:44

rigveda wrote:What the posters here are forgetting is the economics. A typical concer has probably a budget of 1500$. Out of this one has to pay the travel and remunerations. Local hospitality is often taken care of. How can a main artist arrange a "good" pair of accompanists and still make some decent money? Most amateur artists hold good 5-9 jobs and perform only during weekends. They have no time to practice or develop. On the flip side they are willing to perform for free. This ensures that the main artist walks away with at leat 500-600 dollars, a decent money when you convert to rupees. Any protest has to come from the audience who should refuse to attend concerts with arm chair accompanists.
I have verifiable fact where visiting artists come with their own accompanists, charge as much as 2000-3000 dollars for concerts and then pay the accompanists as low as 50$. 50$ in India is 2500 rupees, much more than what the accompanists get in India.So it is a win win game.
The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth.

Rigveda: Thank you for this post. The remuneration for the accompanists, you mention, are so pathetic, if not surprising.
As you point out I also understand that the economics/finances play the most important role here.
See Post# 87 when I said "Logistical problems and financial constraints are often proclaimed as unambiguous reasons for such "self-nominations' onto the concert dias".
The problem is that, to repeat, financial constraint is made the sole reason by these regular amateurs to get onto the stage and escape with their sub-standard performances. This has not been a once-in-a-bluemoon phenomenon; but happens quite regularly (atleast in the city I live)--in over half of the concerts in an year. If ever someone raises a question regarding this, these amateurs (aka organizers) will pounce on the questioners with reasons of financial constraints and logistical problems. Some even go to the extent of bragging that the visiting artists actually demand for them, which is why he/she is always on the stage, with the right to exhibit sub-standard performance !! (I have first-hand evidence for this)
This is purely a misuse of power in a bureaucratic set up of of Carnatic music sabhas in NA.
I also have been mentioning that, this faulty framework of professional musicians with amateur accompanists can be made less faulty, by selecting good amateurs, which definitely needs a break up of this bureaucratic set up. Over past few years there has been a sharp increase in the number of talented youngsters in NA, who can be all made potential accompanists, solely based on true merit. For that, the philosophy of the music sabhas in NA should be changed into "promoting" carnatic music impartially (not alone in organizational proclamations, but in real practice too) instead of organizing concerts by and for the "armchair" accompanists. (thanks to rigveda for the phrase "armchair")

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 10 Feb 2011, 23:53

Out of nothing other than pure curiosity, what is your city reethigowla48?

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 00:19

mri_fan wrote:Out of nothing other than pure curiosity, what is your city reethigowla48?

Mri_fan: I currently live in Atlanta, GA
You may want to take a look at my Post#65 to further quench your "pure curiosity"

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:09

Sorry for not following diligently...I almost ended up living in Atlanta a few years ago...

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:30

you're exactly right sreenadh.

Theoretically, lets say I want to organize a concert in South Alabama using the best amateur talent in NA. The cost for me to bring in a whole team of musicians would break down roughly as follows.
1) vocalist: 500 fee + 200 airfar
2) violin: 300 fee + 200 airfare
3) mridangam: 300 + 200 airfare.

that's 1700, assuming that I have a temple with a good sound system that I can organize the concert for free. At 10 bucks, I need to bring in 170 people, which is fantastic turnout, and very unlikely. What ends up happening is that organizers must use the bigger stars who they can charge 20-25 dollars, and turn a slight profit, and then use that to subsidize the NA artists..lets say I make 2000 dollars from a big successful concert. I can organize twice as many concerts using local talent that may not be up to par compared to flying in accompaniment.

The biggest problem in the country is that its almost never financial feasible to fly in competent accompanists unless we're in a area like LA, New Jersey, or Washington DC, or an area nearby where talent is wiling to drive (philly, san diego, new york city, deleware, etc).

ShrutiLaya · Post by **ShrutiLaya** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:39

(Sorry, mri_fan, I deleted my post before realizing someone was in the process of responding to it! From memory, this is what I posted)

Without knowing the specific situation in Atlanta, I want to make the following observation. The "talented youngsters in NA, who can be all made potential accompanists, solely based on true merit" may not wish to travel to distant cities to accompany artists, especially for the entire tour. Even if they do, they may not want to pay the ~$200 airfare per leg themselves. If this falls on the organizers, we are talking anincrease of $400 for mridangam and violin, even assuming they play for free (which is unreasonable). At $10 per ticket, we need approx 40 more rasikas in the audience for this to break even. And yes, I realize that music is not a business and we can't apply profit & loss ideas to it

But if you want sustainable organizations, things have to roughly balance out.

We try to do pretty much what mri_fan suggests - use the "star concerts" to subsidize the upcoming and local artists, as much as we can .. and most often, end up spending significant money out of pocket to keep the organization going.

- Sreenadh

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 02:56

Hi Sreenadh and mri_fan,
I very much appreciate the idea of using big shot concerts to raise adequate revenue for concerts by local amateurs. I think it is one of the best ways to truly "promote" carnatic music and strengthen the value of amateur talents in NA. I am happy if you are able to do it in your city and sabha.
Unfortunately that doesn't happen here in Atlanta, and here there is only one amateur "star" playing for all professional concerts (even though Atlanta has several other amateur artists and accompanists of good competence) and we don't have the concept of concert by local competent amateurs at all

The consistency of this ill, autocratic framework was what infuriated me into starting this thread here.
Also, about the fees for amateur artists as jotted down by mri_fan: It appears very high for me. I can think of several amateurs who will be ready to perform for no fee; just the flight charge should suffice. This is not at all improbable because I myself personally know of some amateur vocalists and instrumentalists within NA, who will be ready to perform for free, as all of them are well settled here with stable jobs and unsurprisingly none of them is greedy for money

That will significantly reduce the total concert cost from $1700 to say as low as $600 to $1000 (overestimate).

Probably we should make a database in rasikas.org of all the competent amateurs in NA and their expected remunerations, so that concert organizers in various cities can choose from them depending on the budget, location and other logistical issues, to organize more frequent concerts. (I think they already have a database for CM teachers in NA. So this is not at all impossible)
I think this is very much feasible if we, a few rasikas in NA, decide to work things out. And this is the only way to end the bureacratic set up of carnatic music sabhas prevaling in several cities here (if not all).
I myself shall soon start a thread titled "Database of amateur CM performers in NA", into which the artists themselves or their friends/relatives can post their information (Please give me some time)

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 11 Feb 2011, 08:10

It is good to have a database of talented accompanists based in the NA. It is not feasible to include their remuneration in the data base. There are two kinds of musicians (including accompanists) in the US.
(1) A group that had training in India and migrated to the US and are well employed (The IT breed mostly). For them the returns from a performance is not critical. They will use frequent miles for travel and not ask for any money. The problem is they have no time to practice and keep up their standrads. One such accompanists is reported to have told while asked to accompanying a top musician from India" no probelm, it is another damn concert where the main artist takes all the money and goes away". These artists should not be taken seriously but kept in the running all the same since they are well trained.
(2) There is a group of people born and raised in the US and are taking the music seriously and even pursuing it professionally. They can not be asked to come and perform for free, assuming that they are really good. This can be judged by their past record.
The main point is the NA organizations (Cleveland, Chicago, CMANA, Atlanta etc) should spell out their objectives clrearly. Are they promoting NA carnatic musicians or Indian carnatic muscians? The way it is, it is clear that they are promoting Indian musicians in NA . Most of the organizers are living the dream they would have liked to live in Chennai. That is own a sabha and run it and have various muscians run after them. Doing it in NA they have an added advantage (1$=50rupees). That is why when one of these organizers shows up in a concert in Chennai, the main artists(irrespective of their standing) stop the music and say "salam" to these officials. I have seen it personally. In one of the concerts that I attended, when Mr Sundaram entered, the main artist (a top ranking one) stopped singing and paid his respects and continued only after Mr Sundaram took his seat. The whole thing is in such a mess that clearing it up is beyond you and me.
Anyway good luck with your efforts.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 11 Feb 2011, 09:28

Rigveda: I totally agree with you. Probably such sabhas here should be judiciously renamed. Example: Association for the promotion of Carnatic Music of and for Sri Connecticut Venkitaraman.

A sudden wholesome change is impossible, as you say. But small steps are possible. I am going to compile all the important posts and replies in this thread and submit it as a written thesis to the Sabha people here. And I should go for their meetings (if they have any!) and raise the issue there, with the details explained as in the thesis.
One of my friends in Bangalore who is a performing artist (and a s/w engineer by profession) had told me some time back that he along with a bunch of his performing friends (all youngsters) had started a youngster's association so as to promote themselves. They are all fed up with politics by the existing sabhas which favor only selected artists and don't generally support upcoming youngsters who are not backed up or recommended by famous artists or have other influential backgrounds. He said that it is going well. They themselves organize concerts with themselves as the artists and usually get good turn over.
Such a thing is possible in NA too. As years pass more talent pool is flowing in and should become more dense and homogeneous across the country.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 11 Feb 2011, 09:53

rigveda wrote "The day a dollar becomes equal to a rupee, no artist from India will be seen anywhere near NA! That is the truth."

true, but then how many Indians would you find in NA if that happens

The analysis of the financial situation sounds about right. We do not have to be squeamish or apologetic about discussing money matters. Money does not necessarily mean business ( and why is that bad? ), it is for sustenance of the efforts.

That is from the supply side.

What about demand? Can you get audience to show up for NA based artists concerts, irrespective of whether they pay or not? In my experience, temple auditorium concerts have some chance, since it has the benefit of guaranteed foot traffic. Some small % of people may talk in. May be you can put up a donation box and collect some money. The other technique is have a Music Schools Day. That is, it is an opportunity for all the music schools in the area to show case the talent of their students. This usually generates good audience since the parents, relatives and friends of all the students show up.

We have a lot to learn from veteran concert organizers like VKV who have struggled mightily hard during the early times of CM in NA.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Feb 2011, 14:20

Do you not have a third class of musician in North America? The trained, professional, probably teaching, musician? London is almost overflowing with them, and there are a senior handful that could put together a top-class concert any week without even bringing even a main artist from India!

rigedveda, it is a pity that your obsession does not allow you to appreciate that VVS is liked and respected as an individual. In principle, I don't like front-row, VIP, bowing and scraping either, and there is too much of it, but this doesn't damn all the individuals involved, many of whom are genuinely eminent.

And, anyway... you don't treat potential employers with some deference? Simple facts of life.

mri_fan · Post by **mri_fan** » 11 Feb 2011, 20:14

There are virtually no professional full-time carnatic musicians who live in the United States. There are a couple of young musicians just getting started with trying to make a full-time living, and a few women who teach full-time while their husbands have other full-time jobs. We definitely have musicians that perform top-class concerts in the US, but the sheer distances/cost to travel across the US makes it difficult. New Jersey, Detroit and California and DC are the best places now in terms of teachers/performing muscians, but this changes often. For example, DC was the home of Smt. Sandya Srinath, an A-grade violin artist, who spent almost every weekend traveling around the country playing for top-ranked musicians. They recently relocated to Banglore for a couple of years, and as a result, the quality of concerts in the area will likely suffer, as well as the development of her students.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 11 Feb 2011, 22:47

Thanks, mri_fan. Of course, USA is an absolutely enormous country, and it is not comparable to one city in uk, but, there is so much in London, you'd be amazed. Actually, I think there is too much now, and the market may be becoming saturated (it is a market, with the teaching, and the arangetrams), so best thing would be to get some of them to USA!

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 12 Feb 2011, 06:54

I don't know who this Nick H is. I am quite vary of him. I want to stress that I have nothing against Mr Sundaram. I don't even know him. In fact I was curious when the incident I explained (that took place lase year to be precise) and made investigations as to why a senior musician stopped performance to pay obedience to this gentleman and I was told he was the organizer of Cleveland Aradhana. The point is in my opinion he symbolizes the NA scene and can be used as a case study.
Coming back to the topic of discussion, I will think for a while and get back.

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 12 Feb 2011, 07:07

I don't know either who this Mr. Nick H is :$ and I am quite wary of him as he seems to be a balanced guy

He sports a kurta and veshti and attends way too many carnatic concerts in Chennai. On that count I am very jealous of him too :envy:

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 12 Feb 2011, 20:53

... only three in the past three days, and five this week

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 14 Feb 2011, 08:47

Let me share some experiences. I lived in the NJ area for many years before moving to a small town in Michigan. Thanks to the restructuring and reshuffling by big pharmaceutical sharks. During my life here I have attended many concerts in many cities. I have noticed that the average age of the audience is greater than 50. This means the people who come to the concerts are used to the brainwashing in India of "established names" like Seshagopalan, Bombay Jayashree and also the dose of media onslaught they read about a T.M.Krishna and a Sanjay Subramaniam. This explains why only "veterans and famous" Indian musicians attract large crowd. The American media has moved with the times. Long ago they supported rock and roll and then it was something else and now it is rap. The organzations in NA should take up the responsbility of projecting NA artists and target younger Indian Americans. Then only the local artists will attract a good crowd. This can not happen at the present time since the organizers are themsleves in their sixties and their interest is only in perpetuating the system and not in changing it. The main harm they are doing is they are imposing their culture on the prospective future managers. To give a concrete example, in the years to come people like Karthick Venkatraman (I believe he is close to the Aradhna big bosses) will assume the role of a Sundaram in Cleveland. The problem is he has been brainwashed enough to continue the same tradition and we can not expect any change. The same system probably operates in LA, NJ and Chicago. What is required is a complete formatting of the hard drive and installation of new software.
Here is another personal experience with no intent to point fingers. When I was doing my engineering in a small town in Maharashtra, we used to have a Professor of Archaeology from an Ivy League school visiting us and spend many months. He was very popular and every body knew him, but no body asked what he was doing in this small town. He learnt the local dialect, stayed in the best hotel and participated in all cultural activities. Years later Indira Gandhi declared emergeny law and cracked down on many aspects os Indian life. That was the last one heard of him as if to confirm rumours that he was a CIA operative.
Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 Feb 2011, 08:58

I would trust him more than someone with poor spelling who spews conspiracy theories and lives in a small town in Michigan.
Rigveda, I am wary of you.

ramamantra · Post by **ramamantra** » 14 Feb 2011, 09:04

rigveda wrote:Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

That was funny! But, yes, i do agree with you. In all my musical endeavors, esp, my tryst with ethnomusicology and the like, I have seen over-enthusiastic foreigners penetrating the core thoughts/ideas in Carnatic music, steering them with their so-called suave posturing and generally, receiving more attention than they deserved, and, from our all-time Yes-ministertype Indians. By the time one reverts to the core problem and solves it, the problem itself takes a completely different shape and the core idea is lost. Anyway, cribbings from an old man......

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 14 Feb 2011, 10:44

rigveda, you are exhibiting a narrow mindedness of immense proportions. Imagine someone in your neighborhood say such things to your face, "I am wary of you, some Indians are good, some Indians are bad.'.. While absolutely conveying a truism of zero significance, it is hurtful and make you feel very unwelcome in that place. That is exactly what you are doing to Nick which is quite shameful.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 12:30

I am content that there are plenty of fellow members who have known me online for many years, and quite a few who have met me personally. We may not all agree, of course, on music, let alone other aspects of life, both in India and the rest of the world. Nobody gets carried away, though, except, maybe, my wife!

Everybody wants to be liked by all. However, it is fact of life, that we have to accept, that that isn't going to happen!

Anyway, if rigveda wants to pick on me, instead of VVS, well... at least it makes a change!

cienu · Post by **cienu** » 14 Feb 2011, 12:47

rigveda wrote:When I was doing my engineering in a small town in Maharashtra, we used to have a Professor of Archaeology from an Ivy League school visiting us and spend many months. He was very popular and every body knew him, but no body asked what he was doing in this small town. He learnt the local dialect, stayed in the best hotel and participated in all cultural activities. Years later Indira Gandhi declared emergeny law and cracked down on many aspects os Indian life. That was the last one heard of him as if to confirm rumours that he was a CIA operative.
Morale: Don't be carried away by dhoti clad foreigners who demonstrate a more than normal interest in your country and culture. Some may be genuine but some may not.

I am surprised that you have attributed the disappearance of the Professor during the infamous emergency to his being a "probable CIA agent". Most decisions taken during the emergency period were palpably wrong and meant to perpetuate the rule of the then PM by any means.

The Emergency was declared to suppress the widespread political unrest and agitation generated by Indira Gandhi's refusal to submit to her unseating from power in a judgment by the Allahabad High Court on an election petition charging her with electoral corruption in her Lok Sabha General Elections.

Overnight, hundreds of political Opposition leaders and activists were arrested and put in jails all over India. The Indian media was strangled and put under stringent censorship. Human rights and freedoms were brutally suppressed.

Even the Congress party today acknowledges that the decision to impose Emergency was wrong.

The conclusions you appear to derive from the Professor's disappearance during the emergency period and the attempt to juxtapose this incident with any foreigner who shows "excessive" interest in our culture is crude and also in extremely bad taste

I go along with the sentiments expressed by VK.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:34

I'd recommend to rv that he (assuming he) should take me as seriously as I take him

What I care about is the aspersions cast on people who do so much work for carnatic music, and I find it hard to stay quiet in the face of that. That's all.

mahavishnu · Post by **mahavishnu** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:50

What I care about is the aspersions cast on people who do so much work for carnatic music, and I find it hard to stay quiet in the face of that. That's all.

You are a better person than most. What I care about is the open-faced bigotry. There should be no place for that in this forum.
Well said, VK and Cienu.

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 14:57

You are right, of course, and I appreciate what all of your have said. It doesn't matter that it is aimed at me; it could be any member... as you say, it has no place here.

I dislike all this slur and implication stuff too. Had enough of that in a working life of office politics. Better to have a good shouting match and then get it over and forgotten. One can move on from a good, clean fight --- sometimes, even, with no hard feelings.

If someone says to me, "Who the hell are you to criticise this, or comment on that?" I can accept that, and I can reply, "I am someone who has been in the audience for carnatic music for 15 years, and Indian music generally for as much as twice that." It might not change their mind, but at least it is a clean argument!

Enna_Solven · Post by **Enna_Solven** » 14 Feb 2011, 18:38

007.5, have you filed your December Season 2010 report to M?

Nick H · Post by **Nick H** » 14 Feb 2011, 21:55

Wait! That's just what they'll be expecting us to do...

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 18 Feb 2011, 08:33

Reethigowla
Only today I saw your posting and listened to the clipping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmY_1NLrTI
It was too good. Is this guy from US? I know the violinst is TNK. I would like to get some info about him. Truly amazing, if a NA product.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 19 Feb 2011, 07:12

In fact today I watched the other two clippings. They are all truly impressive and I hope they are added to the data base

harimau · Post by **harimau** » 20 Feb 2011, 07:27

rigveda wrote:
Reethigowla
Only today I saw your posting and listened to the clipping
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztmY_1NLrTI
It was too good. Is this guy from US? I know the violinst is TNK. I would like to get some info about him. Truly amazing, if a NA product.

He is a NA product.

In fact he got the Yuva Gala Parathi award. The award was announced a year earlier than he could receive it as at that time he was below the minimum age for the award.

A child prodigy, if there is one.

rigveda · Post by **rigveda** » 20 Feb 2011, 08:45

Thanks Harimau for that information. If he is in NA, it is a pity that Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption and nepotism that goes on.

vasanthakokilam · Post by **vasanthakokilam** » 20 Feb 2011, 08:49

>Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption

There you go again, bashing Cleveland!

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 20 Feb 2011, 12:15

rigveda wrote:In fact today I watched the other two clippings. They are all truly impressive and I hope they are added to the data base

I was just giving some random links that I had come about in youtube. Those ones are hence just samples. I am sure there are plenty of talents scattered across the country. Only that, an organized system and an associated mechanism that spots the talent within the country and encourage them through concerts within NA, is lacking. Still the prevailing situation is that the youngsters who need to become experienced and famous performers still have to go to Chennai and become famous there first, before being regarded as standard performers here.

Rajna Swaminathan from Maryland is another good young mridangist, who might still be in her teens.
With respect to vocal music, two names that come to my mind are Ramakrishnan Murthy and Sandeep Narayan both from NA. I am sure there are atleast a few other youngsters of similar good standards.

reethigowla48 · Post by **reethigowla48** » 20 Feb 2011, 12:22

rigveda wrote:Thanks Harimau for that information. If he is in NA, it is a pity that Cleveland or other aradhanas do not engage him and speaks volumes about the corruption and nepotism that goes on.

I think Rohan Krishnamurthy is reasonably famous in NA, contrary to many of his counterparts. He has his website and very good propaganda mechanisms and lot of support from his family and peers. He used to be active here in rasikas.org . I used to follow his concert videos a few years back, but later lost interest. Even though I cannot go to the extend of singing praises about his playing, I have to agree that he is a reasonably good performer; definitely much much superior in standards than many of the mediocre and below-par amateur performers we usually come across in NA.