Sangathis in Krithis.

Ideas and innovations in Indian classical music

#1  Postby Nandy » 23 Jan 2007 01:31

Hi all,

SANGATHIS : Normally the sangathis are already established by the composers (that's what I read).
But I seem to find a lot of good innovations in sangathis of the same krithi rendered by different artists.
Can anyone throw light on this.

Thank you.

Nandy.
  • 0

Nandy
 
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006 02:01
Reputation: 0

#2  Postby mohan » 23 Jan 2007 03:54

Sangathis are set by the composer. Various schools of music have interpreted them differently and this is why you get varying versions of krithis.

In addition, some artistes often embellish exisiting sangatis or add their own. Sometimes this is even done on the spot! This is why you sometimes find the same artiste has sung different sangatis for the same song in different concerts.

Other artistes, such as DK Jayaraman or TM Krishna, are very strict in sticking to the composed sangatis.
  • 0

mohan
 
Posts: 2659
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 16:52
Location: Sydney, Australia
Reputation: 0

#3  Postby Nandy » 23 Jan 2007 09:56

Thanks Mohan.
  • 0

Nandy
 
Posts: 191
Joined: 25 Jun 2006 02:01
Reputation: 0

#4  Postby violinlover » 16 Jul 2007 18:49

actually i am not sure sri thyagabrahmam had the time to innovate sangathis in his compositions!!! he was just too immersed in his rama bhakthi that i strongly feel he would not have put sangathis for his songs(however he did give us a free rein in singing the songs to our potential)
his songs were settled[pada paduthuthal] by his shishyas who decorated it with sangathis. but composers in the post trinity period surely added sangathis to their compositions to add more colour and after the great vidwans ariyakudi , maharajapuram etc, came on the scene... well u know what happened.
that is why sangathis came into being( i sincerely beiee thagabrahmam did not put 12 sangathis for dharini telusukonti or 10 for na jeevadhara!!!)

MC mama paithiyum violinlover
  • 0

violinlover
 
Posts: 41
Joined: 11 Jul 2007 11:51
Location: Chennai,TamilNadu
Reputation: 0

#5  Postby vgvindan » 16 Jul 2007 19:18

I am not a music qualified; therefore some of the observations I may make about 'sangati' may not be very correct. Pardon for such errors.

Sri tyAgarAja uses 'sangati' with reference to music in the following two kRtis -

nAda sudhA rasam - Arabhi

svaramulArunnokaTi ghaNTalu vara rAgamu kOdaNDamu
dura naya dESyamu tri guNamu nirata gati SaramurA
sarasa sangati sandarbhamu gala giramulurA
dhara bhajana bhAgyamurA tyAgarAju sEvincu (nAda)


Here sangati is a technial term and I have provided the following quotes in my translation -

sangati - Tyagaraja's outstanding contribution to the advancement of the kriti format was the introduction of the sangati (lit. coming together) - a set of variations on a theme, gradually unfolding the melodic potential of the musical phrase. Largely set in the madhyamakala (middle tempo), Tyagaraja's kritis were more appropriate for the modern concert paddhati. As vidwan G. N. Balasubramaniam observed during his presidential address at the 32nd conference of the Music Academy in 1958, nearly 60% of Tyagaraja's kritis are composed in this kala and this speed "seems to be the best for both the lay and the learned listeners." – Source
http://www.sawf.org/newedit/edit05132002/musicarts1.asp

In the kRti hari dAsulu - yamuna kalyANi the following words occur -

sangatigAnu mRdanga ghOShamulacE
pongucu vIdhulakEgucu merayucu (hari)

Here, IMHO, sangati is not a technical term.

In regard to the kRti 'dArini telusukoNTi' - the following is pallavi

dArini telusukoNti tripura
sundari ninnE SaraNaNTi

However, reputed musicians have made a mess of this pallavi by converting 'dArini' into 'darini' in order just to create sangati. They sing 'darini telusukoNTi tripura sundarini telusukoNTi' wherein 'darini' has no meaning. Therefore, there is no sangati here and musicians for their convenience made such sangatis which militate against the kRti.

There are many such examples. The kRti 'rAma nannu brOvA rAvEmakO' and 'graha balamEmi' wherein the sangatis created by musicians have totally distorted the meanings. I have discussed such issues in the thread 'Rendering of kRtis'.

But who will bell the cat? And the show goes on.

As violinlover has commented it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti.
  • 0

Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Jul 2007 20:53, edited 1 time in total.
vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#6  Postby arunk » 16 Jul 2007 20:46

vgv,

I am sorry. I tried hard to resist my strong instincts to post a reply - but I am too weak.

I think the issue of dAriNi was amply discussed with varying viewpoints. There are valid alternative points. But you have all along maintained your initial viewpoint and now say "have made a mess".

I am only sigh - why we carnatic rasikas are "so full of it". It seems to run at our core.

Arun
  • 0

Last edited by arunk on 16 Jul 2007 20:47, edited 1 time in total.
arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#7  Postby vgvindan » 16 Jul 2007 20:52

arun,
all the so called 'valid alternative points' are meant to justify the tradition of singing wrongly. This kRti does not have no such meaning.

dArini telusukoNTi tripura sundArini telusukoNTi

To mutilate a beautififul word 'sundari' as 'sundAri' and then justify it is not in good taste.
  • 0

Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Jul 2007 20:56, edited 1 time in total.
vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#8  Postby arunk » 16 Jul 2007 20:57

what is the meaning of a hypothetical phrase "dArini telusukoNTi! tripurasundarini telusukoNTi!"?

Wouldnt it be "I have undersood the (real) path! Tripurasundari! I have understood!"

Arun
  • 0

Last edited by arunk on 16 Jul 2007 20:59, edited 1 time in total.
arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#9  Postby arunk » 16 Jul 2007 20:59

i thought that was how the alternate viewpoint was expressed (not mine of course)
  • 0

arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#10  Postby vgvindan » 16 Jul 2007 21:05

arun,
I request you to refer to the kRti and the meaning http://thyagaraja-vaibhavam.blogspot.co ... konti.html
  • 0

vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#11  Postby arunk » 16 Jul 2007 21:20

vgv - my post was not to split hairs about dAriNi. We have been through that before.

I posted mainly after seeing pontifications based on wild leaps in conclusions exhibited in it is very doubtful whether Sri tyAgarAja had deliberately introduced sangatis in his kRtis. In any way we the mortals were not his audience - it is Lord Sri rAma - We should ask Lord rAma whether He is fond of sangatis or bhakti after statements like I am not music qualified.

It is fruitless to discuss when discussion isnt really an option. I think Drs has said something to that effect in Rendering of Krithis thread.

IMO, idolization can be a very very dangerous thing to one's mind (and here I go pontificating ...).

Arun
  • 0

arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#12  Postby vgvindan » 16 Jul 2007 23:45

If vAlmIki can come to know rAma - the tAraka nAma by repeating mAra mAra, can't we know tripura sundari by calling her sun-dAri sun-dAri?
  • 0

Last edited by vgvindan on 16 Jul 2007 23:46, edited 1 time in total.
vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#13  Postby sureshvv » 17 Jul 2007 00:20

vgvindan... is there an example of someone singing this "correctly"? Someone famous. Just curious...
  • 0

sureshvv
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 2

#14  Postby vgvindan » 17 Jul 2007 09:14

suresh,
I remember my school Tamil Master teaching us how not to split words by giving the following example

Someone wrote the words - inji miLagu tippili as injimi Laguti ppili - He will tell us, don't split so

இஞ்சி மிளகு திப்பிலி - இஞ்சிமி ளகுதி ப்பிலி

(inji - ginger; miLagu - pepper; tippili - Long pepper, piper longum)

Moral is - don't look for sangati where there is none.

Modern day composers will understand the pain when their kRtis are torn to pieces by others for performing musical gymnastics.

But, I should thank that famed musician for singing 'sundari' as 'sundAri', but for which I might not have ventured to write WBW meanings of tyAgarAja kRtis.
  • 0

Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Jul 2007 09:14, edited 1 time in total.
vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#15  Postby sureshvv » 17 Jul 2007 21:01

I understand the moral and do believe that it has its place. Of course all rules are there to be broken and I believe the venerable late musician had sufficient cause for doing the same.

I am still curious if there are musicians who would sacrifice sangatis for sahitya "sudhdham", especially for this kriti.
  • 0

sureshvv
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 2

#16  Postby arasi » 17 Jul 2007 21:37

A tough call, sureshvv! Like life, it is all a matter of compromise I think, with vocalists! Occasionally, unless you are careful, lesser mistakes than 'dAri" happen because of the very stringing of words which go with the sangati. More of a chance in compositions which are set to tune by someone other than the lyricist.
Govindan is right! As a composer, it makes me wince when people turn 'cukku (dried ginger)+miLAgu+tippili into cuk+kumi+Lagutip+pili!
  • 0

Last edited by arasi on 18 Jul 2007 20:21, edited 1 time in total.
arasi
 
Posts: 12262
Joined: 22 Jun 2006 09:30
Reputation: 15

#17  Postby vgvindan » 17 Jul 2007 21:55

suresh,
If you want to listen to sAhitya Suddham and bhAva, please listen to the kRtis sung by one Mr Sarma - I do not know who he is - there are no albums; his name is not even heard in CM circles.

May be I have very peculiar ears. There is no present or (recent) past CM musician who measures upto him. His rendering of 'kELano hari tALanO' and 'sundari nI divya rUpamu' are treat to ears.

I request someone to throw more light on this person.
I have recorded a few kRtis sung by him - mostly from radio and WS.

arasi,
Thanks for the correction - it is indeed 'cukku'.
  • 0

Last edited by vgvindan on 17 Jul 2007 22:01, edited 1 time in total.
vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#18  Postby sureshvv » 18 Jul 2007 00:29

I find Dr. M.Balamuralikrishna as one of the great ones to pay equal attention to both raga and sahitya bhavas. Many people seem to hold certain reservations about his style though. Time to check him out on the "Vidwans and Vidhooshis" forum...
  • 0

sureshvv
 
Posts: 1975
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 2

#19  Postby bhaktha » 18 Jul 2007 11:33

Not to forget Smt. DKP and Shri DKJ...One could write down the lyrics hearing them sing! And of course...Nedunuri gAru!
-bhaktha
  • 0

Last edited by bhaktha on 18 Jul 2007 16:54, edited 1 time in total.
bhaktha
 
Posts: 322
Joined: 15 Jan 2007 23:02
Reputation: 0

#20  Postby arunk » 18 Jul 2007 21:02

BMK is certainly the best among people I have heard I think (vgv - can you pl. upload recordings of this Sri. Sarma). I hear (and I believe although I cannot correlate intimately) he splits words correctly so that you can follow each word.

I wonder that for for conjunct words (e.g. brahmanandamandavE, swaramulArunokaTi), if the vowel prceding before the joining syllable is stretched, he would usually split it the two and sing it. This style would be different from the (more common) always single continuous intonation of the whole word - and for someone who prefer the latter may appear discontinuous (i.e. with too many breaks). That is how feel when I hear some of his renditions. But I think splitting does seem better.

The trouble with trying to always maintain single continuous intonation could be that if you are happen to run out of breath, and you arent aware of how the conjunction is formed, you end up breaking incorrectly. In fact, even if you don't break this can be a problem.

I can see this better if I imagine an arbitrary word in my native language like say vENugAnamadil (vENugAnam + adil meaning in that vENugAnam). If while one sings, the "na" is stretched as in vEnugA....na..................madil - then that "madil" starts sounding odder and odder (besides it also means some other word). It is better to do vEnugA...na.......m,adil (, => a tiny pause). Similarly swaramAlaru.......nu,okaTi is better than swaramulAru......nokaTi (i.e. if ru happens to be stretched because the melody of the krithi). I think singers like BMK maybe doing this more.

On a side note, btw, I wrote a (light hearted) post about sahitya mutilation this my blog http://sunson.wordpress.com . If you are interested, please check it out. If you are apprehensive about it and think it may be offensive, pl. remember to read the special note at the end. In spite of my disagreements with vgv on this thread, we are really not that far apart :)

Arun
  • 0

Last edited by arunk on 18 Jul 2007 21:03, edited 1 time in total.
arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#21  Postby vgvindan » 18 Jul 2007 22:28

arun,
I sent my response through an e-mail in the forum.
  • 0

vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#22  Postby arunk » 18 Jul 2007 23:04

vgv - for some reason I have not received your email. Pl. resend it if you can. My email address in the forum profile is indeed correct. Anyway in it is arunk underscore the-number-fifteen at yahoo dot com

Arun
  • 0

Last edited by arunk on 18 Jul 2007 23:05, edited 1 time in total.
arunk
 
Posts: 3334
Joined: 07 Feb 2010 21:41
Reputation: 0

#23  Postby sindhu » 10 Aug 2007 18:34

My 2 cents. When a singer gets into raga elaboration, he/she goes for varieties and (s)he chooses many phrases then and there. Elaborately singing of raags were there during Saint Tyagaraja period. HE himself has created Ghana Pancha kritis which we celebrate as 'five gems' and what varieties in swaras to suit the lyrics. I have no doubt that a PERSON of his CALIBRE could have woven sangitis. May be later the vidwans added some to according to their convenience.

More so, HIS Contemprories (SS & MD) were also creating kritis.

Actually, when one is soaked in pure bhakti, the varieties automatically come to the fore. It is the imagination coupled with spantenous improvisation. When a kriti is sung without any further sangathi, it would be just nothing. This only once singing may not make a person getting soaked in music.

Even a poetry is read, each and every line is repeated at least once.

To sum up, Saint had really created sangitis.
  • 0

sindhu
 
Posts: 132
Joined: 30 Oct 2006 15:07
Reputation: 0

#24  Postby vgvindan » 10 Aug 2007 22:44

Saint had really created sangitis.

Elsewhere, someone has talked about 'raw emotions' of Sri tyAgarAja. Musicians, in general, have not understood the mood of Sri tyAgarAja and MD in composing their kRtis - these are definitely not paper-pencil-eraser based. To cite an example of MD kRti, the following wordings occur in the kRti 'ambikAyAH abhayAmbikAyAH' - rAga kEdAram -

yama niyamAdyaShTAnga yOga viShayAdi nigraha karaNa-
mUlAdhAra maNipUrakAdyabja bhEdana sphura kuNDalinI-
sahasra daLa brahma randhrastha kamalAntargata Siva sammELana-
gaLita paramAmRta bindu sEcana samujjRmbhita-
nADI mukha vikAsa karaNa nijAnubhUti yOginyAH

This is a single epithet - how many do understand the profundity of these lines in order to render it correctly?

Yesterday I was listening (in WS) to the tyAgarAja kRti 'rAma nannu brOva' - hari kAmbhOji - sung by a famous musician.

I have referred to faulty rendering of the kRti in http://www.rasikas.org/viewtopic.php?id=964&p=2 - Post #37.

This artist also renders it as 'rAma nannu brOvarA' - repeats a number of times and then adds 'prEmatO'. The word 'prEmatO' is not at all there in the kRti.

I am citing this example to show how deep rooted the tradition is; people even change the kRti wordings 'looking' for sangatis.

sindhu,
Do you still feel that the Saint created this sangati?
  • 0

vgvindan
 
Posts: 1430
Joined: 13 Aug 2006 10:51
Reputation: 0

#25  Postby arasi » 10 Aug 2007 23:04

:)
  • 0

arasi
 
Posts: 12262
Joined: 22 Jun 2006 09:30
Reputation: 15

Next

Return to Technical Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Reputation System ©'