Misra Chapu Vs Trisra Triputa

Laya related

#51  Postby vasanthakokilam » 21 Mar 2008 22:55

Arun, Thanks for that Varnam link. Though I asked about RTP, varnam example does perfectly fine. In fact, a while back, I was looking for a varnam with Thisram execution. Other than an MDR one, I could not find one ( not that I did an exhaustive search ). Is it relatively rare for people to sing Trisram in Varnam. Singing in a faster speed is indeed common. So thanks for the Bombay Sisters link and if you can find other varnams with Tisram I would like it too. ( as and when you find them in your normal listening ).

In our earlier RTP example, it was taken like khANDam. But it is still the same methodology.

Right, absolutely. I was going with that thinking as well and to conclude that this three level grouping exists in 2 Kalai as well. Shall we call the Shri Rangarajan Demo as Khanda kaLai ;) In fact Shri. Rangarajan uses the word kaLai in a few occasions to refer to those outer 5 sub-divisions.

If only the CM industry/community agrees to a terminology of Gathi for this kind of outer level sub-division and Nadai for the lower level sub-division, we will atleast not have the 'war's we had about this ( remember the 3a and 3b type sub-division debate? ).
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#52  Postby arunk » 24 Mar 2008 07:37

vasanthakokilam wrote:If only the CM industry/community agrees to a terminology of Gathi for this kind of outer level sub-division and Nadai for the lower level sub-division, we will atleast not have the 'war's we had about this ( remember the 3a and 3b type sub-division debate? ).

I dont follow as to how it applies to 3a/3b as it seems neither? and hence makes matters worse as it could be 3c :) ?
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#53  Postby vasanthakokilam » 24 Mar 2008 11:21

Arun, the 3a, 3b thing generated some heat last time, so beware ;)

Recapping what those are in the broader context ( from the thread http://www.rasikas.org/viewtopic.php?id=2286&p=1 ). The numbering and nomenclature may have changed from what you remember from yet another thread.

2) The other obvious one is the kAlA variations. The thala remains the same but one packs in double the number of swaras per beat to create the effect of faster speed and half the number of swaras to create the effect of slower speed.

3) The same thala with gathi and kaLai variations produce different musical effects.

3 a) gathi variations - type 1 - Keep the outer beat length the same and vary the number of sub-beats. It is easy to show that mathematically this is a general case of item 2 but it has different musical aesthetics, hence the differences in nomenclature.

3 b) gathi variations - type 2 - Keep the sub-beat interval the same and vary the number of sub-beats per beat.

3 c) kaLai variations - Say, two kalAi is a doubling of the number of sub-beats. It is easy to show that mathematically this is a special case of 3 b) but it has a different musical aesthetics hence possibly the special name.

4) Composers can combine the sub-beat counts in different ways to good musical effect in their composition. That is, the same thala in the same gathi can be made to feel different with such cross-rhythms

In the case of the Shri. Rangarajan's RTP, he seems to do 3 b) which he himself calls KaLai and so it can be 3c and then he does 3a on top of that.
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#54  Postby arunk » 24 Mar 2008 21:55

He does do 3c combined with 3a. But I do not think 3b is anywhere in the picture here. As I understand it, for 3b, the akshara duration would have to change as you switch gatis - I dont think that will work here.

Basically you start out U U U U U i.e. 5U for an akshara, and you have 30Us for the outer tisra jhampa ( 5U 5U 5U | 5U 5U | 5U ||), for an akshara, Then for tisram you would do 3U per akshara (and U can be sub-divided as 1, 2, 4 etc.). Now for 30U, you need 10 of these 3U - cannot construct tisra jhampa with that unless you keep going. Similarly for miSra jhampa you have 7U. To align against 30, you need to keep going for a while.

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#55  Postby vasanthakokilam » 24 Mar 2008 22:17

Arun, understood. No issues there. I was not suggesting that Shri. Rangarajan is rearranging the sub-beats at the U level to get at 3b.

What I am saying is, in terms of definition, there is no difference between 3b and 3c , 3c is a special case of 3b if you are willing to consider the 2 Kalai as consisting of two sub-units, 4 Kalai as consisting of 4 sub-units and what Shri Rangarajan does as simply another kaLai with 5 sub-units ( all at the outer sub-unit level ). I fully grant you that people do not think of it that way but I do not see a difference. Of course, normally people do not vary the kaLai once the song starts and in that sense calling 3b as something that can vary is relatively rare. And 3a type variations are the norm since that falls in the kAlam change.
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#56  Postby arunk » 24 Mar 2008 22:55

yes that can be one way to look at it. If you take a standard catusra pattern as U U U U => [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] then a "comparative 2-kalai" would be [ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-dhi-mi].

Now if you account foir RTPs like this (i.e. as opposed to 2-kalai and 4-kalai which are common as they make it natural to retain the underlying gati), then a "comparative 3-kalai" would be [ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-dhi-mi-ta-ka-dhi-mi] .... This would be 3c.

However, instead of grouping at the outer level, if you group at the innner level you get for tisra gati: [ta-ka-dhi] [mi-ta-ka] [dhi-mi-ta] [ka-dhi-mi], which is 3b.

Now does that make both grouping identical? No. Does that make them completely alien to each other - Not exactly. Does that make 3c special case of 3b? Not sure but I guess if you choose it to look at that way, it is possible :) as it is using a similar principle of grouping the underlying sub-beats under the basis of a certain multiple.

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#57  Postby vasanthakokilam » 26 Mar 2008 01:40

Arun: I think I understand your first two paragraphs and I agree.

However, instead of grouping at the outer level, if you group at the innner level you get for tisra gati: [ta-ka-dhi] [mi-ta-ka] [dhi-mi-ta] [ka-dhi-mi], which is 3b.

On first blush, that seems more like item 4, rather than item 3b.

Item 2 and items under 3 all assume a strong notion of the beat and sub-beats ( and in the case of this RTP, Beat, 1st level subdivison and 2nd level subdivision ). Item 4 is basically flattening it out at the innermost level and combining them at various nadai combinations.
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#58  Postby arunk » 26 Mar 2008 02:01

Then I really do not know what you mean by
vasanthakokilam wrote:3 b) gathi variations - type 2 - Keep the sub-beat interval the same and vary the number of sub-beats per beat.
...
3c is a special case of 3b if you are willing to consider the 2 Kalai as consisting of two sub-units, 4 Kalai as consisting of 4 sub-units

What sub-unit, what sub-beat? Are they same? I do not thinks so but then I do not know what you are thinking :).

The way I interpret the above second statement is a sub-unit for 2kalai would itself consist of ta-ka-dhi-mi (and multiples or halves there of).

But the sub-unit 3b is one that whose duration remains the same across gati switch is the one that is in 4s for 1-kalai i.e.

[ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] | [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] | [ta-ka-dhi-mi] [ta-ka-dhi-mi] ||

32 sub-units per Adi. If each sub-unit duration is 1/4th a second, then 8 seconds i.e. 1 second per akshara. Keeping this sub-unit same, if you do tisra the Adi tala duration would change to 6 seconds for 3b. An akshara duration for that tala would be 3/4 seconds.

A "comparative" 2 kalai would be 16 seconds. An akshara becomes 2 seconds (kept as two beats of 1 second), divided into 8 1/4 chunks - the same as 1-kaLai (which is implied by the same gati). A "comparative 3-kalai" would be 24 seconds.

In 3c, what happens is you keep the tala duration and the akshara duration constant and you increase/decrease the sub-unit duration. So for tisra Adi would still be 8 seconds. Each sub-unit increases/stretches to 1/3 seconds. For khaNDa each sub-unit decreases/contracts to 1/5 seconds.

Basically unless I am misunderstanding you, your equivalence of 3b and 3c assumes different kinds of sub-units/sub-beats. I guess I am misunderstanding you :)

Arun
for is that sub-unit which resultts
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#59  Postby vasanthakokilam » 29 Mar 2008 22:37

Arun, I have been re-reading the last few posts multiple times but still I am not sure if we are indeed saying the same thing or not. At one level, we seem to be saying the same thing and then we are adding possibly different interpretations to what Sri. Rangarajan does. Without worrying about it too much, let me re-present it in a simpler way. You can then add your commentary/addition.


Model 1:

There are three things: 1. kaLai 2. Beats 3. Sub-beats

A)

1) 1 KaLai consists of 1 beat
2) 2 Kalai consists of 2 beats
3) 3 Kalai consists of 3 beats ( let us call it Tisra kaLai )
4) 4 Kalai consists of 4 beats
5) 5 Kalai consists of 5 beats ( let us call it khanda kaLai )
etc.

B) Each beat consists of the following sub-beats. The beat interval does not change.

1) 1 sub-beat ( 1st speed chathusra nadai)
2) 2 sub-beats ( 2nd speed chathusra nadai)
3) 3 sub-beats ( Thisra nadai )
4) 4 sub-beats ( 3rd speed chathusra nadai )
5) 5 sub-beats ( khanda nadai )
6) 6 sub-beats ( thisra nadai mel kalam )
7) 7 sub-beats ( misra nadai )

Using this scheme, we can describe Sri. Rangarajan RTP as A5 with B1, B2, B3, B4, B5,B6 and B7 variations.

Correct?

Model 2:

There is another way of looking at things. There are only beats and sub-beats.

A) Constat sub - beat interval ( let us call this Gathi variation ). Here the beat duration is not the same. Higher the sub-units, higher the beat interval

1) 1 sub-unit per beat
2) 2 sub-units per beat
3) 3 sub-units per beat <- Thisram
4) 4 sub-units per beat <---This will be 1 kaLai
5) 5 sub-units per beat<--Khanam
6) 6 sub-units per beat<-thisram (2 kaLai?)
7) 7 sub-units per beat<-- Misram
8) 8 sub-units per beat <---This will be 2 kaLai

Here the gathi variations are in a continuum that includes the kaLai.

B) Non-constant sub - beat interval ( let us call this Nadai Variation ). Here the beat duration is the same. Higher the sub-beats, smaller the sub-beat interval.

1) 1 sub beat per beat ( chatusram 1st speed )
2) 2 sub beats per beat ( chathusram 2nd speed )
3) 3 sub beats per beat ( thisram 1st speed )
4) 4 sub beats per beat ( chathusram 3rd speed )
5) 5 sub beats per beat ( khandam )
6) 6 sub beats per beat ( thisram 2nd speed )
7) 7 sub beats per beat ( misram )
etc.

Here Nadai variations are in a continuum that includes the kAlam.

Normally people do not adopt both variations within the same piece, it is one type of variation or the other. The Model 2 Variation B is the more common one.
Model 2 A8 to A4 variation is sometimes done ( changing from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai ).

Question: Can these two models of looking at things be integrated into one consistent model.
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#60  Postby arunk » 01 Apr 2008 07:18

vk,

Yes Model 1 is how I interpret it.

I dont like to attach existing overused words to arbitrarily label things (although at Cleveland we had some good explanations by the senior artists on whether gathi and naDai is different - more on that later). So just 2A and 2B would suffice. Except for that MLV example we discussed a while ago, I cannot think of 2B in practice particularly if you are talking about gati switches. That is because any model which changes the beat duration implies a switch in tala. So unless it is a talamalika (there are indeed such things), it is not going to be employed. But this is just my perspective and it is sort of a "back to zero" answer :)

Arun
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#61  Postby vasanthakokilam » 01 Apr 2008 09:31

Arun;

Looking forward to hearing about what you learned in cleveland about gathi, nadai etc. ( may be a separate thread for that ).

When you say 'Yes Model 1 is how I interpret it', you mean to say that is how you interpret Sri. Rangarajan's RTP, right?

>I cannot think of 2B in practice particularly if you are talking about gati switches

You probably meant to write 2A. If that is called thalamalika, that suits me fine.

Now theoretically speaking, especially since you bought into my bringing in kaLai in 2A ( consciously, I assume ), would a switch from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai be called a thala switch? It is done normally without any reservations.

Now that we have the terminology in place, would the following be considered acceptable? Since switch from 2 Kalai to 1 Kalai is OK, then how about a transition like this.

2A8->2A4->2A5->2A6->2A7->2A8 .
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#62  Postby sbala » 01 Apr 2008 11:54

arunk wrote:vk,

So unless it is a talamalika (there are indeed such things),
Arun

IIRC, Vijay Siva's pallavi during the DKP tribute was a talamalika. It moved from a 2 kalai Adi/Eka thalam for the purvangam and then to one of the chapu thalas (Khanda chapu I think) for the next part. I wish I had noted it down somewhere.
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#63  Postby arunk » 01 Apr 2008 18:06

vk - yes 2A is what I meant.

IMO Adi-2 kaLai technically is not a different talam. It is still simply Adi but the akshara is just twice as long compared to a "comparative 1-kalai". We put 2 visible signs per akshara only to keep time reliably (although one can make that argument about all kriyas!). In fact, you can observe many people during a concert put Adi 2-kaLai as simply Adi with a "spaced out" akshara duration. I do it myself very often :).

Also since perceptively we dont view multiples of 2, 4, 8 etc. to be a different gati as in say tiSra mEl kAlam vs. tiSra gati and just as a speed variation, a switch from 2-kaLai to 1-kALai or vice-versa isnt a gati switch either.

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#64  Postby arunk » 01 Apr 2008 18:07

sbala - there are also dance items which are talamalikas.
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#65  Postby vasanthakokilam » 01 Apr 2008 22:58

Adi-2 kaLai technically is not a different talam

Since you said 'technically', let me ask you this. You also said earlier 'That is because any model which changes the beat duration implies a switch in tala.'

Here a 2 Kalai as opposed to 1 Kalai is a change in beat duration. But if it is just Adi that is kept at 1/2 the speed, I will agree with you it is not a different tala. But in normal practise, there are 8 sub-beats in 2 kaLai and when they switch to 1 kaLai, there are only 4 sub beats. So by all these considerations, it is a change in beat duration.

I realize I am coming across as pedantic in this discussion ( but do not mean to be argumentative ). I agree with you that even multiples ( 2, 4 and 8 ) definitely have a different feel from 3, 5 and 7.

I will have to look up what Nivedita wrote about Anuloma and Pratiloma ( I vaguely recall it also meant a switch from 2 kaLai to 1 kaLai in one of those two ). It will be interesting if similar to kaLai switch, someone wants to do 2A8->2A4->2A5->2A6->2A7->2A8 transition, how will it look like, how many cycles it will take to complete it, where the words will fall and more importantly what will the aesthetic feel it will provide for the RTP.
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#66  Postby arunk » 01 Apr 2008 23:13

vasanthakokilam wrote:
Adi-2 kaLai technically is not a different talam

Since you said 'technically', let me ask you this. You also said earlier 'That is because any model which changes the beat duration implies a switch in tala.

:) True - that is a very valid counter point. I guess the reason this may be kosher is that it doesnt change the underlying gati/gait and thus is treated like a speed change. Also, a switch to 1-kalai talam keeping may not necessarily be mandated but is still done for ease of use and other considerations.

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#67  Postby arunk » 01 Apr 2008 23:26

And I think I am beginning to understand your question as to why is gati treated differently from kaLai. Or atleast why isnt kaLai simply treated as a special case of gati.
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#68  Postby vasanthakokilam » 01 Apr 2008 23:55

Yup, I think you and I are in sync now.
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#69  Postby sbala » 02 Apr 2008 09:20

arunk wrote:IMO Adi-2 kaLai technically is not a different talam.
Arun

At a purely theoritical level, Im comfortable treating it as a different thalam. My view is there is no such thing called a Adi thalam in the real world. It is just an abstract entity. As an experiment, if I ask you to put Adi thalam, how will you render it. There are many possibilities. You could render it in 1-kalai or 2-kalai etc. In object oriented idiom, I look at Adi as an abstract class and 1-kalai, 2-kalai as concrete subclasses or thalas. Unless you define what a tala is, you cannot answer questions of the nature 'Is something a different tala?".
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#70  Postby beginner » 02 Apr 2008 15:28

First of all the (aadi) tala is theoritically called as Chatusra Jaathi Tripudai. Some opines that by mere saying 'tirupudai' one means Chatusra Jaathi Tirupudai and some other school says it is a 'tisra tirupudai tAla. (tri means threesome pudai may mean kootam)

when One is learning CM from Sarali varisai and upto Geetham, the tAlam is set as ' one swara kAla per count/akshra'. In between, two swara kAla per count/akshra is learnt as 'janta varisai'.

'swara kAla' - I am using b'coz the swara kAla can be sung in akAra/lyrics etc.

Swarajathi onwards, it is 4 swaras per count/akshara and this trend itself prevails in most of varnams, kritis etc.

Hence, it is construed that 4 swara kAla per count/akshara as ' eka(1) kaLai and doubling the kAla, it is called dwi(2) kaLai and so on/forth.

Again, some thillAnAs have one swara kAla per count/akshara.

Even misra chApu tAlas have kritis with 3+4 swara kAla aksharas which can be said as eka(1) kaLai misra chApu.
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#71  Postby sbala » 02 Apr 2008 15:46

It is indeed called chatusra jathi triputa but that is not enough information for you to demonstrate the thala.
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#72  Postby beginner » 02 Apr 2008 16:01

As I said earlier, if one is demonstrating anything beyond Swarajathi ( mostly), it is 1 kalai thAla (4 swara kAla per count/akshara)

Chowkha(slow speed) kritis like 'kanna talli neevu(saavEri), ksheerasAgara (dEvaghandAri), ranganAyakam (nAyaki) akhilAndEswari (dwijAvanthi) etc. are dwi kaLai (containing 8 swara kAla per count/akshra) kritis.

Even in pallavis of RTP, 1 kalai is first taken up as base speed and it is doubled as well as halved.

Same principle goes with percussion instruments I believe. Example - dha thi tOm num - (kanjira sol? ) is taught as one jathi/swara kAla akshra .. then it is doubled and redoubled. Here too, 4 jathi/swara kAla akshra, later, become a starter kaLai and the durita kAla (having 8 jathi/swara kAla) is taken up.
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#73  Postby vasanthakokilam » 02 Apr 2008 19:43

bala, your main point is that you are comfortable with calling 2 Kalai Adi as a separate Tala. beginner is saying that if one does not specify a kaLai, the default is one. All valid points.

If both of you can look at the items 2A and 2B above and see if the integrated view of 'gathi and kaLai' (2A) and 'gathi and kAlam' 92B), using two different interpretatins of gathi, of course and see if that makes sound theoretical sense or not, that will be great. Also, your thoughts on how a thala transition in an RTP of the kind 2A8->2A4->2A5->2A6->2A7->2A8 will be like aesthetically ( along the lines of anuloma/pratiloma - this should fit in with one of the two, but the novel thing is the changes are not integral multiples or fractions ).
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#74  Postby sbala » 02 Apr 2008 22:12

I understand the default is one in practice. That is why I qualified mine as purely theoritical.

As far as 2a and 2b are concerned, 2a is changing the speed of the thala and 2b is changing the speed of the song. Kalai change is one way of changing the speed of the thala and therefore you can call it a special way of changing the speed of the thala. But, I would say it is just one way of changing the speed of the thala. Nadai change is one way fo changing the speed of the song and you can call it a special case of altering the speed of the song. That is my simplistic view.
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#75  Postby vasanthakokilam » 06 Apr 2008 00:55

Bala: Think about this angle. In addition to the axes thala speed vs song speed, laya refers to the built-in rhythm of the song and thala is an external represetnation of it, through kriyas. In that sense, both 2A and 2B are about laya.
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