We have Ragas which are almost identical for the listener.
For the Artist, they should be different and the nuances of each should be correctly brought out.
Shall we have a discussion about this interesting subject.
We can mention the ragas and their effect on us and our experiences in
identifying those etc.
I know, already many of the knowledgeable members know this. But just
to make the ball start rolling or revive this topic.
A few similar ragas:
Darbar - Nayaki: Kedaragoula - Surati: HariKambhoji - Khamas:
Madhyamavati - Sri -Mani Rangu:

KMK

Bhairavi-Mukhari-Manji

Yes. especially Bhairavi and Manji.
Inspite of the clear audava-arohana, mukhari also
treads Bhairavi path some times.

Arabhi, Devagandhari also come to my mind.
Subhapantuvarali and Bhavapriya, though they are
different melakarta ragas, sometimes are confused.

KMK

One thing I want to point out about the bhairavi-mAnji pair...

Expressed as an equation

Diff(bhairavi, Brovavamma mAnji) < Diff ( Brovavamma mAnji, Varugalamo mAnji).

You are correct.
One more addition is Vasanta - Lalita.

Also, Shubhapantuvarali and kumudakriya

I think kedAragoula & suruti are audibly quite different.

kAmboji, harikAmboji & valaji have similarities.

Apparently reetigoula & Anandabhairavi are very similar too?

Correct me if am wrong ..

Abhogi-Sriranjini

Shudha Saveri - Durga

Sarasangi - Charukesi ...

'The pairs of similar ragas' coming out is heartwarming.

Abhogi and Sri Ranjani have a slight difference. They are of the same Janaka Raga, though.
Sri Ranjani has a Nishada in Arohana and Avarohana, in addition.

Charukesi and Sarasangi have the difference only in Nishada, the last swara of the sampurna scale. Hence as long as the alapana and swaraprasthara are
between the first and sixth note, they may sound similar, even if the sancharas are different.

Durga, more or less, is the hindustani equivalent of Sudha Saveri.
Afew more pairs come to my mind.
Rudrapriya - poorna shadjamam.
Kantamani - Srutiranjani
Sudha Dhanyasi - Udayachandrika.

CM Dwijavanthi is supposed to have a combination of Yadhukula Kambhoji and sahana. That is until I heard someone mention it that way. Until then dwijavanthi had a unique identity for me.

Same thing with Kedara Gowla and Suratti. I do not confuse the two, even though the differences are mainly in the execution of the same grammar.

HarikAmbhoji - kamAs: I do not confuse these two.. I may not be able to correctly pick out HarikAmbhoji but kamAs has a more distinct personality. In terms of wrong identification, I tend to wrongly tag vAchaspathi as harikAmbhoji ( that is just me ), usually so if I start to listen to the middle of a song that is not already known to me.

That is at one end of the spectrum. Differences between Darbar-nAyaKi, vasantha-lalitha etc. are not significantly different enough for my ears to tell the difference if I heard an unknown song, though more experienced rasikas scoff at people who can't tell the difference

Folks
Here is lecdem that I found in my vollections by Vid||OST which is most relevant to this thread
http://rapidshare.de/files/22729772/all ... s.mp3.html
Since this is noncommercial feel free to distribute. Listen to this slowly to relish the subtle beauty of the ragas that OST expounds!

Pl discuss each of these combinations too from your experience and other examples and make it lively! Regards

VK!!!
Kedara Gowla can be sung in all the three sthayis. However, Suruti is usually limted to only two. Atleast thats what I feel.

I find Dwijawanthi closer to Sahana than to YK

Thanks CML... OST has covered so many groups of allied ragas. Excellent.

I wrote above that I once mis-id'd a Vachaspathi song as Harikambhoji. After listening to OMT, I realize my confusion is quite shameful There was that only that one occasion, I will have recall which song it is and lisen to it again and sort out the source of the confusion...

I am still not clear between chakravaham and Ahir Bhairav. OST says Ahir Bhairav is a lighter version of Chakravaham. I do not have a good mental identity for AB but when I listen to AB it does not take me close to chakravaham.

His Arabhi-Devagandhari demo is excellent. I am not sure too many people confuse the two since they have distinct personalities but it is nice to have it recapped succinctly.

Minor complaint: In certain parts it is a bit confusing which of the two ragas he is singing since he sometimes labels the raga before and sometimes after. So, consistency of presentation of material would help the listeners.

OST has provided a trasure trove of artitistic content in that one hour.

this maybe of some interest:
DELETED

Vk

I have internalized AB as HM and cakravaham as distinctly CM.
I agree OST is too casual in mentioning what raga he is referring to. But if you know the raga you know what it is
I guess this is a casual lecdem and he iis quite relaxed...
Again everybody whenever we mention similar raga talk about darbar/nayaki ad nauseum and OST does not focus on that and his discussion is meaningful!

Shall we add ADANA/aTANA to the list once SR gets to prove it

CML
May be we should add them too if he does prove..

Thanks for that lecdem. Very informative..

OST talks about groups of allied rAgAs, even if those rAgAs have distinct personalities. In CM circles, aTTANa is not normally considered to be allied with kAnaDa and OST did not talk about them together either.

Even OST does not show how one raga 'morphs' into the the other. That kind of a demo will be fascinating to watch. For example we can morph sankarabharanam to kalyani two ways. One is just changing the madyamam to prati madhyamam and the other is by doing srutibhedam on madhyamam. In both cases we will not get kalyani unless the gamakams too are changed. But in the case of nayaki/darbar or arabhi/devagandhari one can slip from one to the other seamlessly just by controlling the length of the notes! There is a fascinating scope for raga-research through these subtle manipulations.

Quite correct. Morphing sankarabaranam into kalyani or vice versa is not even ponderable since they are not morphable even with madhyama substitution and gamaka changes. ( as we know the characteristic phrases are different ).

As you said, Arabhi-devagandari example can be a prototype for some new ragas ( not sure about darbar-nayaki example in this context ). If someone can find a new melodic personality by changing the nyasa swaras of a raga and some good new prayogams that are not found in the parent raga, that will indeed be interesting. If challenged, we can bring Arabhi-DG as a precedent. May the the low hanging fruits are ragas that are sung briskly. For such a raga, impose a different nyasa swara with different prayogams and mandate that this new raga has to be sung at a slower gait. Another idea....since the inventor has all the cards, he/she can also mandate that it should be sung only in Thisra or Kanda nadai to further establish the uniqueness and new identity.

In reality, these allied ragas may have had an organic evolution over the centuries rather than one yesteryear vidwan in his spare time inventing such ragas. But that does not mean we can not do that.

After Listening to Srirangam Iyengars Rishabhapriya , I am now inclined to add another combination
Rishabhapriya - Lathangi-- are they related too??
.Somehow i never got this feeling listening to MLV's version

Rishabhapriya is the 62nd and Lathangi is the 63rd melakarta... they are pretty damn close scale-wise...

shanmukhapriya-simhendramadhyamam.
Though I can tell shanmukhapriya , SM can be confusing

coolkarni sir, yes indeed

riShabhapriyA (62) is very close to lathAngi. it is lathAngi in the lower half (pUrvAnga), and cArukEsi in the upper (uttarAnga). in other words, it is the 'prati-madhyama' equivalent of cArukEsi (26)

jayamanohari is another teaser - it is abhOgi on the ascent and srIranjani in the descent

regards

sujirAm

shaNmukhapriyA with higher niShAdam (touching the higher Sa) is SM.

shaNmukhapriyA with sudha madhyamam is naTabhairavi. this is one of the reasons naTabhairavi is seldom heard on stage. very easy to slip and fall into the shaNmukhapriyA trap - because of latter's immense popularity.

SM with suddha madhyamam is kIravANi

regards

kmk .
must really thank you for this thread.
is developing into the right kind of benchmark tool for me !!
descriptions like

are just the right stuff for me

BTW can I see traces of sahana in kedaragowla too .. I get this feeling in some places whenever i listen to the Oduvars singing at Kapaleeswar Temple. Only a trace though before kedargowla makes it impact