Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada

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Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada

#1  Postby shreyakolathaya » 26 Apr 2012 09:47

namaskaram

Being a student of Carnatic classical music , I have a doubt . How is raga Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanada ?Can someone clear my doubt ?

I am eagerly looking forward to the reply.
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Re: doubt

#2  Postby mohan » 26 Apr 2012 09:54

Have a read of this .. http://sriramv.wordpress.com/2008/12/31 ... mber-2008/

It may, however, lead to even more confusion!
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Re: doubt

#3  Postby narayan » 28 Apr 2012 08:19

shreyakolathaya,
Welcome to the gang! No, your doubt cannot be cleared by me, but there are some very knowledgeable people around here who can perhaps give some pointers. As Mohan says, it may (shall we agree that it will?) lead to more confusion. But so what?
About Karnataka kapi, you must have some particular songs in mind, that you have heard. Madurai Mani Iyer's singing of Venkatachala is much like modern day Kaanada. But what KVN and other people have sung - sumasayaka in Karnataka Kapi - is indeed different from Kaanada. This KK is much closer to what we call Kapi today, or vanilla Kapi, if you like, but _without_ the antara gandhara and the kakali nisada and other notes that are sung in popular kapi, especially post pallavi kapi. Old recordings of Ramnad Krishnan etc. again are ambiguous.
Over to the experts!
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Re: doubt

#4  Postby vasanthakokilam » 28 Apr 2012 10:10

Also, take a look at this thread viewtopic.php?f=13&t=19110
which refers to this link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9KLfzWjhGXE
vasanthakokilam
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Re: doubt

#5  Postby Nick H » 28 Apr 2012 13:19

Welcome ... and a request :)

If you use meaningful thread titles you are more likely to attract people who can answer your question, and will avoid inconveniencing people who, for instance, wonder what on earth your "doubt" might be about!

Welcome to rasikas.org: it is a wonderful place!

(Mod: Thread title fixed )
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Re: doubt

#6  Postby narayan » 28 Apr 2012 15:51

I actually meant to say "Welcome to the large gang of people confused about this matter, which includes me!", but sure, welcome to rasikas.org as well! Wonderful place, for sure.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#7  Postby archa » 22 Sep 2012 12:41

Karnataka Kapi is a raga that has no individuality of its own. It sounds like Karaharapriya sometimes and sometimes like Durbar. So all songs are being sung in Kapi which is quite delightful and those are the accepted versions. KK songs can also be conveniently rendered in Kanada. Nothing wrong in that.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#8  Postby Rsachi » 22 Sep 2012 16:55

Thanks folks for this discussion! I revisited that wonderful piece of great great great musical improvisation by the ensemble here:
http://is.gd/gvLuj2
The bonus was that I streamed it via Bluetooth from my iPad to my new wireless 2.1 speakers Fenda W330BT-really nifty bass (at 3990 Rs!), a marvellous experience!
Vihara Maanasa Raame!!!!!
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#9  Postby varsha » 23 Sep 2012 21:27

to my new wireless 2.1 speakers Fenda W330BT-really nifty bass


http://www.mediafire.com/?8nr8ri67vtigz79

pl let me know how this track sounds on the fenda - since i have to make up my mind too . ;)
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#10  Postby Rsachi » 24 Sep 2012 08:17

Varsha,
Sure, the K'kuruchi mangala dhawani streamed beautifully from the iPad safari browser to the Fenda W330BT. The sound file itself didn't seem to be Hi-Fi but sounded like a good 4/5 AM Deepaavali broadcast from AIR Chennai (I know you've a cool archive collection!)
Why i chose the Fenda W330BT: both RCA line and BT inputs, reasonable volume, Bass/Treble controls. Looks nice and price is right too.
It pairs automatically and starts off the player on the mobile phone or iPad by itself! I took my phone and tested at Croma before buying.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#11  Postby varsha » 24 Sep 2012 10:48

Thanks for the feedback . I was wondering how the thavil , at around the 50th minute , would sound on it . Will get one , myself.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#12  Postby Rsachi » 24 Sep 2012 11:13

Checked again. Sounds really good to me.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#13  Postby rbharath » 25 Sep 2012 20:56

archa wrote:Karnataka Kapi is a raga that has no individuality of its own. It sounds like Karaharapriya sometimes and sometimes like Durbar. So all songs are being sung in Kapi which is quite delightful and those are the accepted versions. KK songs can also be conveniently rendered in Kanada. Nothing wrong in that.


Thats a rather unfortunate comment about a ragam. Karnataka kapi is definitely a ragam that does not deserve that comment.

This ragam has distinct compositions and anchoring phrases.

Please listen to the sumasAyaka varNam or still better, try to get the old karnATaka kApi varNam, 'sArasAlanu nannu' and listen to it.

Kalpakam mAmi's rendition of MD's vIra hanumatE is another version that shows the nuances of the rAgam.

I have heard people rave about one occasion when Brinda amma sang the viruttam 'jAnAti rAma tava nAma ruchim' in kAnaDA and karnATaka kApi one after the other and catching the violinst off guard. Dont know if there is a recording available.


And lastly, it is definitely not acceptable to many of us to accept changing of ragams and versions of compositions from the original.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#14  Postby Rsachi » 25 Sep 2012 22:42

I agree with rbharath.
May we request that any musician volunteer to record these two ragas vocal or instrumental to bring out the differences and similarities? Any volunteers please?
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#15  Postby Rsachi » 25 Sep 2012 23:31

Did you folks hear this Karnataka Kapi:
http://mio.to/vRn
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#16  Postby RaviSri » 26 Sep 2012 11:37

There are many ragas which are similar sounding like Durbar-Nayaki, Kedaragaula-Narayanagaula, Purnachandrika-Janaranjani etc. On that count we don’t say, “C’mon let’s sing ‘nI bhajana gAna’ in Durbar, why have a separate raga called Nayaki”, or “Why sing ‘sri rAmam’ or ‘innALLu daya’ in Narayanagaula, let’s sing it in the more popular Kedaragaula. A now very popular vidwan asked me many years ago, “Why do you people sing ‘vINApustaka dhAriNi’ in Vegavauhini, why not sing it in Chakravaham?” I had to point out to him that Thyagaraja had composed in both Chakravaham as well as in Vegavauhini. If there weren’t any difference why did he compose in both ragas?

The word Karnataka Kapi is itself unnecessary. It was only during the last quarter of the 19th century that Kapi began acquiring Hindustani overtones with the introduction of G3 and N3. As such all of Thyagaraja’s songs in Kapi metamorphosed into Hindustani Kapi. Worse, certain songs in Durbar like ‘nityarUpa’ were changed to Hindustani Kapi just because the original Kapi sounded in certain phrases like Durbar.
Kapi is an ancient raga and is not a bhAShAnga. It has a distinct identity of its own though it may sound in certain places like Durbar, or Kanada or Karharapriya. When one looks at the Kapi songs notated in the 1923 publication ‘thyAgarAja hridayam’ by K.V.Srinivasa Iyengar, one can discover the individuality of this raga. Old time vidwans like Pinakapani have sung ‘inta saukhyamani’ in the original Kapi without the G3 or N3.

There are 3 or 4 songs still extant in the original Kapi. The ‘sumasAyaka’ varnam, the Nauka Charitram song, ‘chUtAmurArE’, ‘venkaTAchalapatE’ of Dikshitar and ‘akhilANDEshwari’ of Shyama Sastri. These songs give a very clear picture of the original Kapi.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#17  Postby jlvina » 27 Sep 2012 02:33

When Sekhar and I asked Dr Pinakapani , where he got the oru kalai adhi tala version of Inta Soukhyamani from, he said he learnt it from the gramaphone record of Salem Krishna Iyengar.
He has sung it for us and also taught it to me.. there are many instances where G3 and N3 appear in both his singing by himself and teaching me.. Ravisri Sir, i wonder where you have heard the version where he has not used G3 and N3. thanks.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#18  Postby RaviSri » 28 Sep 2012 10:39

I have heard a friend saying that Pinakapani did not use G3 or N3. I myself have not heard Pinakapani sing this song. It is perhaps very easy to slip into G3 and N3. Now I remember I have heard a housewife singing mIvalla guNa dOShamEmi in pure Kapi without g3 and n3. I myself am learning inta saukhya from thyAgarAja hridayam now and have managed to avoid slipping into G3 or N3. In any case, we have original Kapi versions of the songs I listed in my previous post. Here's the nortation for the first Avartanam starting with the tAra ShaDja. The last N with a comma is mandra and I am learning it in 2 kaLai:

S' N- NDPD- M P- MGR PMGR-; S RN,; Sa RM
in,ta-sow- khya- mani nE... -; jeppa jA; la..
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#19  Postby archa » 28 Sep 2012 13:06

Vidvans like Pinakapani don’t make mistakes like your gurus B-M, right RaviSri!! Kapi is sung with G3 and N3 in all songs. Karnataka Kapi is an arSha raga, gone out of vogue, with a slippery existence in Dikshitar’s song. Even in SSP, SD says that nowadays G3 and N3 are being used and he gives certain phrases where these two anya swaras are used. I would like to advise you to follow what you suggested to the Music Academy in another thread, the Dhanammal Photos thread, which you made your own domain and dominated most part of it with your raving about your gurus’ parampara with your ‘rasikas’ in this forum loudly cheering you.
Wake up to the emerging exciting world of contemporary CM and embrace some modernity instead of pulling out obsolete texts such as Thyagaraja Hridayam. Later publications such as Kriti Mani Malai have given the modern versions of the Kapi songs. It is high time you stopped eulogizing long forgotten texts and singers who faced empty halls and train yourself to listen to the likes of GNB, MMI, MS, Sanjay, TMK, Aruna Sairam, Soumya etc. The last two were disciples of the bhani you are so fond of exaggerating about, but both of them have travelled far away from that weeping style, developed styles of their own and are occupying centre stage of CM. Learn from them, please.
Akhilandeswari of SS is quite beautiful with G3 and N3. Listen to Sulocana Pattabhiraman’s rendition of this song. Chuta Murare of Nowka Charitram sounds excellent in the modern Kapi.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#20  Postby jlvina » 28 Sep 2012 16:05

As i said he has sung this song using both g3 and n3 and for one who has been all his life like a blotting paper able to write notations whatever he heard couldnt ve gone wrong in this. he mentioned clearly that he learnt it from Salem K 's recording and also liked it very much . in his Sangeetha Sourabham , he has written out this song in both the '1 kalai version' and also the '2nd kalai version' that we hear all the time. i myself have also learnt the latter from my earlier guru too . even in the 2 kalai version, i know some parts where g3 and n3 are used by most vidwans.
just sharing what i know.
since i m not in chennai at the moment, i will not be able to go through the notations now till i get back which is oct 15th. and also clarify with the great guru himself when i see him on oct 24th.
thanks
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#21  Postby rbharath » 28 Sep 2012 20:52

even this morning, there was a veenai recital by our own 'vainika' on FM Gold, where he played the MD kriti venkaTAcalapatE.


how many ever years pass by, generations go by, red is always red. black is always black. man is always a man. such are ragams and their names and usages. corruptions and adulterations are always unwarranted.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#22  Postby devan » 29 Sep 2012 10:24

archa you are in topform.weeping style you have hit the nail on the head. we used to call them oppari sisters.in this forum the moment you start calling spade a spade they will close the thread.but when somebody prasises x r y to sky level it will kept on coming.keep up the good show.
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#23  Postby Rsachi » 29 Sep 2012 10:51

If Ragas were to be imagined to be Deva Kanyaas, I am full of sympathy for the Mysterious Devataa 'Karnataka Kapi'. She has been much misrepresented, morphed and maligned for a long time, and this Rasikas.Org thread is another instance.

When I heard about the 'weepy' style, something I understand in the context fully, I was reminded of a mythological soap (yes, it exists :grin: !!!) on a channel called Life OK (yes sir :grin: ) where Sati, and her next avatar Parvati, is weeping all the time. That serial also depicts Devon ka Dev as totally unmoved despite all the weeping (or Karnataka Kapi discussions).

Is it perhaps now time to end this Karnataka Kapi discussion, dissection, dissertation, demarcation, denotification, desecration, deportation, decoration and deification (of which I am culprit!) :^) :!: :^)

Or shall we continue, since actually, it is 'kind of fun' :grin: :!:
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#24  Postby sureshvv » 29 Sep 2012 12:58

rbharath wrote:how many ever years pass by, generations go by, red is always red. black is always black. man is always a man. such are ragams and their names and usages. corruptions and adulterations are always unwarranted.


I have a slightly more liberal/licentious view. Corruptions and Adulterations are inevitable - especially in the domains of creative pursuit. But they do not have to come at the cost of existing art. There is enough literary work begging to be tuned - both past and present. Raga names are quite easy to create. So why "modernise" existing kritis before fully understanding/internalizing them?
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Re: Doubt - How is Karnataka kapi different from raga Kaanad

#25  Postby narayan » 29 Sep 2012 20:59

Dear archa,

Your short answer to the original question seems to be that karnataka kapi is dead and now there is a modern kapi which is quite nice and all songs in karnataka kapi can be sung in this modern kapi. The original question was about the comparison with kaanada, which is quite insightful, after hearing venkatachala and some of the other songs in some older recordings. But perhaps you are not that interested in this. Fair enough.

Speaking for myself, I honestly like Brinda Mukta Sanjay Aruna Sowmya MMI and many others, quite a lot. About weeping, I do feel like weeping many times and sometimes when music reflects that in some way, it does catch the heart. Just like we don't only read light comedies and comics, we sometimes feeling like reading tragedies as well. I hope there is room for more than one view in this forum.
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