I agree with Sivaramakrishnan that in our zeal to make CM and raga identification easy for beginners,we end up "stretching" the parameters using film songs that may be misleading---an example is the case of Rahman's "Endan Nenjil"(I do not know the film) sung by Yesudas which remotely resembles nalinakanthi but takes lot of liberties.

On the contrary some of the film songs of the thirties,forties and fifties--MANAMEGANAMUM(Bhimplas),Manmada Leelayai(Charukesi)) became clssics which are sung even today.

Endan Nenjil" -To me it looks OK. Not like ennavale...en idayathai (ragathai!)thulaithuvittein (had it in the beginning but lost in the midway!).I suggest We can take Sri Madurai G.S. Mani as authoritative source as he knows both sides better.He also concedes these deviations during his presentations on" Cinemaum sangeethamum".The initiatives of Charulatha Mani to be commended on merits .

It is one thing to say that a tune is loosely based on a certain scale and quite another to say it is based on the raga. AFAIK Charulatha makes this distinction although she does not pedantically labour on the specifics of the liberties/artistic license employed by film composers. Many songs, especially contemporary numbers are mentioned *in passing*, and are not held up as gold standards for the raga. MKT numbers are typical favourites and usually sung in full.

Bottom-line: Isai Payanam intends to entertain and pique the interest of listeners regarding CM, especially non-kutcheri goers (we have had several listeners calling to enquire where Narada Gana Sabha was located )
Certainly, it is NOT INTENDED to train them in the arcane art of Film Raga Spotting, a largely pointless, albeit innocuous and enjoyable activity.
As one poster opines, this is often futile with many new numbers, where the coincidence with a scale is sometimes accidental, with the music director not really conversant or concerned with the intricacies of the carnatic raga!

FYI, here are some presentations of Hamsadhawani from Isai Payanam concerts in London and Melbourne:
http://charulathamani.com/download/hamsadwani-london2009.mp3
http://charulathamani.com/download/hamsadhwani-melbourne2010.mp3

clmweb, let me reproduce your comment:

"Certainly, it is NOT INTENDED to train them in the arcane art of Film Raga Spotting, a largely pointless, albeit innocuous and enjoyable activity. As one poster opines, this is often futile with many new numbers, where the coincidence with a scale is sometimes accidental, with the music director not really conversant or concerned with the intricacies of the carnatic raga!"

If the exercise is NOT INTENDED to train listeners in raga spotting, I wonder what exactly is the purpose served in just mentioning the name of ragas! It would only serve to demean the classical scales.

Kindly do not take shelter under the 'coincidental/ accidental' factors.

Raghav Menon in this book
http://books.google.co.in/books/about/I ... edir_esc=y

gives us a nice tool to grasp the complexity of what the term raga stands for. He compares it to a human body , which by itself has no unambiguous identity . Trying to understand what the term invloves the need to get into the constituents of the body and to marvel at the seamless way each are related to the other .

There are fundamental problems in getting too involved in this raga - film song association . An occasional fad in the form of a GS Mani concert (or Revathy Krishna concert for that matter ) is OK for blokes who have mastered the form at its deep classical end .
The danger in such a series of cm for dummies articles is that the beginner may be misled . That is the point Sivaramakrishnan is making .
When I was very young I had a fancy for quotations from great men and authors . That pocket book I had jotted them on was a real curio with my family members who would praise me for my effort . I used to feel great until my Dad brought me down one day saying - your act of collecting quotes can never be a substitute for serious reading . And I notice that you have gone slow on that .

The issues here are very similar . For those who have seen it all in what a Raga stands for , such attempts have no significance . And if justified as an act for beginners , it is more of a pity .

It appears you are under some misapprehension. Raga names are not just mentioned. nor are lists recited. I don't think anyone is going to sit through 2hours of that. Around 45min to 75min is devoted to a raga, with highlights (sung) from carnatic and film music compositions. A classical piece is then rendered in full. There is also an explanation of the lyrics and background. The kriti is also sung with alapana, swaras, tani avartana (no audience exodus here as apparently they are not trained in the finer points of kutcheri-going ).

For instance:
Raga Ritigaula
Raga Amritavarsini

On a general note, these concerts are NOT lec-dems and are meant above all to entertain and to highlight the fact that enjoying CM or appreciating the beauty of a raga does NOT require training or indoctrination, as most listeners have been listening to CM in some form or other. This of course may not sit well with some "connoisseurs" who believe they are specially equipped to appreciate CM, and in some cases even pride themselves in being able to listen to the unlistenable

-KB

Indoctrination is not in context here .
As for the rest , glad to know about this point of view .
Avaravara bhavakkey , avaravara bhakuthige .... ( Each to his own ... )

clmweb,
Fine.
However I reiterate that the exercises must also warn listeners of the pitfalls .

(Again to illustrate: In 'Unnodu vaazhaadha vaazhvenna vaazhvu' selected for hamsadhwani- demonstrate the point where Suddha madhyamam appears in the second line. This wont take more than a few seconds and many will be able note it.
It wont 'complicate' the presentation)

I am surprised that the discussions in the thread have stopped abruptly!

My intention was just to point out areas where one needs to be cautious in handling raga journeys!

Sivaramakrishnan, I see you are taking the position that getting into the technicalities is not going to complicate the presentation. That is a point of view worth debating.

My thinking is, If the emphasis and goal of these kinds of programs is aesthetics and entertainment, and the audience is not the 'inside the beltway' people, why burden them with Suddha Ma technicalities. Even some regular CM concert goers will find those kinds of things quite unrelatable. This is even more so if the goal is to appeal to the 97% of the audience who is outside of the CM circle.

May be there is a way to point out the deviations musically that is 'sense-able aurally' by non technically minded people. Some thing like 'had it been strict hamsadhwani it might sound like this but the film song is like this' etc. That can get very interesting.

clmweb, do you have some stats on the audience? What is the approx./ball park % distribution of the audience among: Regular CM concert goers, occasional CM listeners, film music buffs who are new to CM etc.

Judging from the quiz entries, emails, phonecalls, personal interaction during the concerts etc. I'd say 30% are sporadic concert goers, 20% rarely attend, 10% have never seen the inside of a sabha, 40% are film music aficionados of varying degree of CM exposure, 5% are serious film music buffs, 20% are regular classical concert goers. Obviously some of these categories are not mutually exclusive. There is also variance across concerts and venues.

Happy that the raga's journey has taken a meaningful direction - thanks vasanthakokilam for being at the wheels.

I will now just follow the dialogue between you and clmweb!

Chakravaham- The Hindu, May 26, 2012
Kudos to Charulatha Mani...she has a flair for presenting musical ideas and information snippets very interestingly. I found the You Tube clips from the past very good, too. She has a real presence.

I found the spelling Chakravaham a bit odd.. Always thought it was spelt with a k.. As in all text references I could find. Charulatha's Jaya TV exposition has her pronouncing it as Chakravakam.
I know of course that many Tamilians say Chakravaham.

Ms. Mani,
I really liked your piece today- Mesmeric Maand. (I even wrote about it in my blog!)
Your choice of expressions is wonderful.

I have no issues also with your citing examples from movies, although it must be obvious to anyone that the goal in a movie song is very rarely, if ever, to adhere strictly to the raga. By illustrating a discussion on a raga with movie song examples, you are essentially kindling an interest in listeners to notice the raga aspects in movie songs. That is laudable per se.

From the comments here, it seems your Tamil programs are even more interesting. My kudos to you!

Kudos to you Charulatha for your abiding initiative in creating/sustaining awareness &interest in Ragas among paamara &panditha alike. One old song of Ghantasala comes to my mind"neevaravillayelin adharavedu..?S Balasubramanian.

Lathangi, Bowli, Shuddha Saveri, and Behag will be taken up in this week's live Isai Payanam concert:
"Isai Payanam with Charulatha Mani"
6:30PM, Friday 3rd August 2012
Bharatiya Vidhya Bhavan (Main Hall)
Entry is FREE. For reserved seating call 9962623387

regards,
Karthik Bala
Trustee, Isai Payanam Trust (Regd.)