difference between bhimplaas, dhanaashree and aabheri

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kharaharapriyan
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Postby kharaharapriyan » 30 Oct 2006, 00:14

Could anyone explain the difference between bhimplaas, dhanaashree and abheri(abheri itself has two styles i beleive.......one of dikshitar and the other of tyagaraja swamy)? I know abheri of both the styles correctly.....and also that dhanaashree and bhimplaas have the same arohanam and avarohanam(N2' S g m p N2 S SN2D2pmg1r2S......from karnatik.com.....this site also quotes that dhanaashri is a janyam of natabhairavi which cannot be true as the thillana 'gita thunikku thaka' very conspicuosly employs chatusruti dhaivatham )....but i want to know what is the difference between presenting these raagas........(like aarabhi and devagaandhaari)

i read in a hindustani site that though bhimplaas and dhanaashree are of the Kaafi thaat(i.e. kharaharapriya) in bhimplaas(referred to as bhimplaasi), more stress is given to the madhyama......
the site also mentions that dhanashree is also a raaga of the bilaval thaat(i.e. shankarabharanam)

carnatic sites however very subtly avoid to discuss this.....(or have i missed anything)

could anyone shed more light on this please??

Moderator Edit: Expanded truncated words for better readability
Last edited by kharaharapriyan on 30 Oct 2006, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.

vamshikrishna
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Postby vamshikrishna » 30 Oct 2006, 03:54

(N2' S g m p N2 S SN2D2pmg1r2S......from karnatik.com.....this site also quotes that dhanaashri is a janyam of natabhairavi which cannot be true as the thillana 'gita thunikku thaka' very conspicuosly employs chatusruti dhaivatham
i read in a hindustani site that though bhimplaas and dhanaashree are of the Kaafi thaat(i.e. kharaharapriya) in bhimplaas(referred to as bhimplaasi), more stress is given to the madhyama......
the site also mentions that dhanashree is also a raaga of the bilaval thaat(i.e. shankarabharanam)


ti agree with you that the Moorchana you found on Karnatik.com can not be correct. i have not heard or sung N2 in Abheri or dhanasri ever.

as per my knowledge, Moorchana for Dhanasri is : Arohanam :N1 S G1 M1 P D2 N1 S
Avarohanam :S N1 D2 P M1 G1 R2 S

however i think dhaivatham in avarohanam is alpam. i am quite sure that it can't be a janyam of shankarabharanam(Bilaval)
experts, please let me know if i am wrong.

i can't see any difference between Abheri and karnataka devagandhari either. can some one explain me if there is any diference.....

srinidhi
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Postby srinidhi » 30 Oct 2006, 11:21

can't see any difference between Abheri and karnataka devagandhari either. can some one explain me if there is any diference

.....


Let me try:

Aabheri of Thyagaraja = Karnataka Devagandhari of Muthuswami Dikshitar
E.g NagumOmu e.g PanchAshaTpITa RUini

SG2 M1P N2 S SN2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

This would make it a derivative of Karaharapriya

The Aabheri of Muthuswami Dikshitar employs the Suddha dhaivatam in the avarohana and is classified as a janya of Natabhaivi. E.g Veena abheri venu vaadyadi vinodini.

This confusion is similar to the suddhasaveri/devakriya/ karnataka suddhasaveri of the two schools.
Last edited by srinidhi on 30 Oct 2006, 11:30, edited 1 time in total.

rajeshnat
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Postby rajeshnat » 30 Oct 2006, 13:34

srinidhi,
To the best of my knowledge karnataka devagAndhAri in sampoorna mela system == devagAndhAram of asampoorna mela system.
That also means bhimplas is differerent from Abheri which is different from karnataka devagAndhAri inturn different from dhanashree.

Lakshman
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Postby Lakshman » 30 Oct 2006, 17:53

vamsjikrishna wrote:
(N2' S g m p N2 S SN2D2pmg1r2S......from karnatik.com.....this site also quotes that dhanaashri is a janyam of natabhairavi

This information is as given in B.Subba Rao's Ragnidhi.

arunk
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Postby arunk » 30 Oct 2006, 22:17

vamshikrishna wrote:this site also quotes that dhanaashri is a janyam of natabhairavi which cannot be true as the thillana 'gita thunikku thaka' very conspicuosly employs chatusruti dhaivatham

Abheri is supposed to employ suddha-dhaivatam and it still does in some krithis like wth vINAbhEri, the dikshitar krithi. The suddha-dhaivatam is the reason is why it is under natabhairavi.

I guess this maybe so for dhanasri too but i am not sure.
srinidhi wrote:Aabheri of Thyagaraja = Karnataka Devagandhari of Muthuswami Dikshitar

This true only as per practice today. Even nagumOmu was sung during first half of 20th century with D1. But during that period, the version with D2 came about, and become so popular that today Abheri is identified with D2 and not D1 :)!. This inspite of the dIkshitar krithi being sung without such morphing.

Arun

rshankar
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Postby rshankar » 30 Oct 2006, 22:28

GS Mani in a lec-dem says that bhImplAs/bhImplAsI/AbhErI/karanATaka dEvagAndhArI can all be considered the same. He did not mention dhanaSrI, IIRC.
Ravi

arunk
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Postby arunk » 30 Oct 2006, 23:22

abhEri does not belong to that list unless qualified as "the way some krithis in abhEri are sung today".

Arun

rshankar
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Postby rshankar » 30 Oct 2006, 23:57

Yes...these were in reference to how these rAgas are sung today.
Ravi

arunk
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Postby arunk » 31 Oct 2006, 00:34

ravi,

my point is in a ledcem we cannot make a generalization for the raga AbhEri that way as long as vINAbhEri (and also a papanasam sivan krithi - dont remember) is sung as original - with D1.

That is why worded my previous post as the way some krithis in AbhEri are sung today (as opposed to the way AbhEri is sung today) :).

But it is sort of a lost cause/case. The D2 version of AbhEri has entrenched itself quite deeply. One could take this like a lament, but i also think this could be a "living" example of how a raga morphs over time. We know they do from the references in historical texts - we are seeing one in action.

Arun

vamshikrishna
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Postby vamshikrishna » 31 Oct 2006, 18:41

Srinidhi wrote:Aabheri of Thyagaraja = Karnataka Devagandhari of Muthuswami Dikshitar
E.g NagumOmu e.g PanchAshaTpITa RUini

SG2 M1P N2 S SN2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

This would make it a derivative of Karaharapriya

The Aabheri of Muthuswami Dikshitar employs the Suddha dhaivatam in the avarohana and is classified as a janya of Natabhaivi.


thanks for the explanation but i cant understand one thing how come Kharaharapriya or natabhairavi have N2( Kakali nishadam) . to the best of my understanding it should have been N1 (kaisiki nishdam)
Last edited by vamshikrishna on 31 Oct 2006, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

Radhakrishnan
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Postby Radhakrishnan » 31 Oct 2006, 19:24

vamshikrishna wrote:how come Kharaharapriya or natabhairavi have N2( Kakali nishadam) . to the best of my understanding it should have been N1 (kaisiki nishdam)

Both kharaharapriya and nata bhairavi have kaisiki nishAdam
Last edited by Radhakrishnan on 31 Oct 2006, 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

arunk
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Postby arunk » 31 Oct 2006, 19:57

vamshikrishna wrote:Srinidhi wrote:Aabheri of Thyagaraja = Karnataka Devagandhari of Muthuswami Dikshitar
E.g NagumOmu e.g PanchAshaTpITa RUini

SG2 M1P N2 S SN2 D2 P M1 G2 R2 S

This would make it a derivative of Karaharapriya

...
The Aabheri of Muthuswami Dikshitar employs the Suddha dhaivatam in the avarohana and is classified as a janya of Natabhaivi.

Pl. refer to my post. There is no such thing as "AbhEri of tyAgarAja" vs "AbhEri of dIkshitar". The original version of nagumOmu was also sung in D1 that too even recently. Even though it has changed to use D2, some books still mention it a janya of natabhairavi i.e. retaining the original correct mELa. Some more recent books do make AbhEri a janya of khaharapriya, it is not correct to say "AbhEri of tyAgaraja" to refer to the version of D2. Sorry to be a stickler but we cannot take a recent morphing (euphemism for corruption) and apply it back to the composer.

vamshikrishna wrote:thanks for the explanation but i cant understand one thing how come Kharaharapriya or natabhairavi have N2( Kakali nishadam) . to the best of my understanding it should have been N1 (kaisiki nishdam)

Some books dont include the vivadi swaras in their nomenclature and for them N1 is kasiki and N2 is kakali. But the more popular (IMO) versions label them as well and so as per that N1 is suddha, N2 is kaisiki and N3 is kakali.

Arun
Last edited by arunk on 31 Oct 2006, 19:58, edited 1 time in total.

vamshikrishna
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Postby vamshikrishna » 31 Oct 2006, 22:39

thank you arun for the clarification.
Last edited by vamshikrishna on 31 Oct 2006, 22:40, edited 1 time in total.

chalanata
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Postby chalanata » 01 Nov 2006, 07:31

can somebody be kind enough to post the audio clip of Nagumomu in its original form? thanks.

nalchakmur
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Postby nalchakmur » 03 Nov 2006, 06:46

rajeshnat wrote:srinidhi,
To the best of my knowledge karnataka devagAndhAri in sampoorna mela system == devagAndhAram of asampoorna mela system.
That also means bhimplas is differerent from Abheri which is different from karnataka devagAndhAri inturn different from dhanashree.

The moorchana for Bhimplas is :
s g1 m1 p n1 p s
s n1 d2 p m1 g1 r2 s

whereas the moorchana of Abheri is
s g1 m1 p n1 s
s n1 d2 p m1 g1 r2 s

ravi2006
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Postby ravi2006 » 10 Dec 2006, 18:19

chalanata wrote:can somebody be kind enough to post the audio clip of Nagumomu in its original form? thanks.

There is a discussion of abheri to be found at http://www.sawf.org/Newedit/edit08062001/musicarts.asp
It seems to endorse the view that abheri originally contained only suddha dhaivatam. I also remember seeing a documentary about Papanasam Sivan, during which the senior vidwan S. Rajam mentioned learning Nagumomu from Sivan himself - again with the suddha dhaivatam. Hence Sivan's own composition Kanda Vandarul is in 'old Abheri'.

There are audio clips of both of these songs on the link above, by Vedavalli and MLV respectively. IMHO though, the current version of Nagumomu has become too familiar for it to suddenly revert now.
Last edited by ravi2006 on 10 Dec 2006, 18:28, edited 1 time in total.

ravi2006
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Postby ravi2006 » 10 Dec 2006, 18:37

Here is another rendering of the Papanasam Sivan kriti, this time by Sri TK Govinda Rao:
http://surasa.net/music/karnatak/contri ... 2003_songs
The brief alapana and swaraprastara help bring out the raga swarupa of this somewhat unfamiliar version of abheri.

chalanata
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Postby chalanata » 14 Dec 2006, 07:19

ravi,
thanks.

arunk
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Postby arunk » 26 Mar 2009, 07:18

I have a blog post that summarizes much of the info about AbhEri (w.r.t nagumOmu ganalEni and vINAbhEri) in this thread and other threads:

http://sunson.wordpress.com/2009/03/25/the-abheri-conundrum/

Comments and feedback are appreciated.

Actually at the time of earlier discussion, I had said there was "tyAgarAja's AbhEri" vs "dIkshitars AbhEri". That was because the discussion implied tyAgarAja's is the one that is how nagumOmu is sung today and dIkshitar's is vINAbhEri - and since nagumOmu was composed with D1, I had that it was the same as that of vINAbhEri. Later discussions and revelations indicate otherwise and there *is* a thing as "tyAgarAja's AbhEri" vs "dIkshitar's AbhEri" - both being D1 based AbhEris :) - I discuss this in more detail in above post

Arun

tribute
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Postby tribute » 26 Mar 2009, 07:41

A normal mistake that everybody does:
The thillana in dhanasri is not "Geetha thu niku thaka"!!
It is "Geethadhwani ku thaka"!!

mohan
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Postby mohan » 08 May 2009, 10:08

Although there was some discussion here before, I don't we ever came to a good description of Dhanasri. Apart from the Swati Tirunal tillana, what are the other compositions in this raga? Was the Swati Tirunal tillana originally set in Dhanasri or was the raga chosen by Lalgudi Jayaraman? What is the structure of this raga and how does it differ to Karnataka Devaganhari?

ksrimech
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Postby ksrimech » 09 May 2009, 05:03

srinidhi wrote:Karnataka Devagandhari of Muthuswami Dikshitar e.g PanchAshaTpITa RUini
This confusion is similar to the suddhasaveri/devakriya/ karnataka suddhasaveri of the two schools.


There is no karnATaka dEvagAndhAri in dIkSitar school. It is dEvagAndhAram as per muttusvAmi dIkSitar. Viz. "dEvagAndhAra rAga tOSiNi" in the charaNam. I think thats how most books quote. rAjeshnAt's post also mentions it. Interestingly I was going thro sangIta sampradAya pradarSiNi (SSP). I neither found this rAgA dEvagandhArA or the kRti panchASaT pITa rUpiNi. subbarAma dIkSitar, however, lists a rAga dEvagAndhAri in mElas 22 (SrI) and 28 (DhIraSankarAbharaNam).

mELA 22: ArO: S R S G G M P D P N N S; Ava: S N D P M M G G R S - Its an upAnga rAgam (So close to kharaharapriyA!)
mELA 28: ArO: S R M P D S; ava: S N D P M G R S R G R S (This is the dEvagandhari of the kSirasAgarasayanA and kSitijAramaNam type)

vEnkaTamahin's SlOkam also calls this rAgA dEvagAndhAri. There is no SlOkam for the rAgA from the mELa 28.
Also in the foot notes for the rAgA from mELa 28, subburAma dIkSitar calls this rAgA dESiya dEvagAndhAri.

That may be the reason why people identity the first gAndhAri with karnATaka sabhdhA. It may be better to call it dEvagAndhAra or bhImplas.

subburAma dIkSitar clearly lists AbhEri under the nArirItigouLa mELa (22) . ArO: S M G M P P S ava: S N D P M G R S
Clearly stated is an upAnga rAgam. Hence uses svarAs of nArirItigouLa/naTabhairavI and not SrI/kharaharapriya!

Same is the story with tarangini. One svara (Suddha deivatam to chatuStruti deivatam) change and it sounds like chenchuruTTi/jhanjhUTi.

Poor AbhEri along with tarangiNi and many other have been mutilated by our beloved musicians in the name of janaranjakatvam!

SuddhasAvEri may be compared to devakriyA. But the suddhasAvEri of asampUrNa mEla paddati is from a different mElakarta.
SuddhasAvEri: janyA of mElam 29, ArO: S R M P D S; ava: S D P M R S
According to SSP, dEvakriyA: janya of mElam 28, : S R M P D S; ava: S D P M R S
And (karNATaka) Suddha sAvEri, janyA of mELam 1, ArO: S R M P D S; ava: S D P P M R S
In his footnotes, subburAma dikSitar say this is the Suddha sAvEri which pUrvAchAryas like purandaradAsar have composed pillayAr gItam in. He then says, "Now-a-days the suddhasAveri is being sung like dEvakriyA (harikEdAragouLa janyam) with panchaSruti RSabha deivatams".

ksrimech
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Postby ksrimech » 09 May 2009, 05:04

mohan wrote:Was the Swati Tirunal tillana originally set in Dhanasri or was the raga chosen by Lalgudi Jayaraman?


There is a reference (online somewhere) that SSI mentioned in one of the interview to Hindu or Frontline that LGJ tuned the thillana in this rAgA

keerthi
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Postby keerthi » 09 May 2009, 10:53

Dear ksrimech,
how is the Devagandhari of mela 22 from the SSP at all like Kharaharapriya..?
It is exactly like the Abheri of VasudevAcharya's bhajarE mAnasa, and the modern version of NagumOmu..

Examine the scale, minus all the tinsel; and it is an expansion of S G M P N S / S N D P M G R S..
The jantai notes are for indicating emphasis and understatement.. If a scale goes s g ... and m/g r s.. in the aa/ava- rohana, it follows that the srs phrase is legitimate.. Dhanyasi is an example which comes to mind..
Similarly if the scale goes pns in ascent and ndp in descent, it allows for a pdp phrase.. See previous example..

The ancient dhannasi/ dhanyasi/ dhanasiri melody has transmogrified into our modern (suddha) DhanyAsi which is called dhAni upcountry; dhanyAsi which has eaten up a LOT OF ghAntA's persona and this upstart DhanAsri which is probably repsented in Karnatic music only by that tillana

An analysis of the mettu of this tillana reveals that there is a lot of :
gmnp and pmnp (see pa-duma )
the ndp phrase is used very rarely and D is a weak note in this raga..It occurs in an interesting phrase GMPDNDP,, for tAn gAvE

Bhimpalasi is distinct from the karnataka Devagandhari/ nouveau Abheri clones, as exemplified by VasudevAcArya's songs in both rAgas Abheri - BhajarE and Gokulanilaya in BhImpalasi which has only SNPMGRS in the descent..
Also there are more p/grs phrases in this raga..
Last edited by keerthi on 09 May 2009, 11:59, edited 1 time in total.


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