Age to start learning carnatic music

To teach and learn Indian music

Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#26  Postby msakella » 22 Apr 2012 10:47

Dear brother-member, vasanthakokilam, At this fag end of my life I have only a single view concentrating all my efforts on enlightening our kids in music-learning and I have been used to look anything and everything with this view only, if you don’t mistake me, dear.

As per my long experience in the teaching field I feel that there is a lot to discuss face to face in this respect than writing umpteen lengthy posts in this thread. But, as such discussion is not possible at this juncture I shall try to write even up to some extent.

What you wrote is the absolute truth. On earth every being has its/his/her own desire and always strives hard to get it fulfilled in one way or the other. As this is natural there is also nothing wrong in doing so if it is not bad. But, in the end, you also wrote that we take comfort in the fact that the journey has been enjoyable and worthwhile no matter what the destination happens to be. If that is so everybody feels happy of his journey as you wrote. But, in respect of many cases, particularly, in learning music, even after learning many years, many aspirants are feeling very bad about their own inabilities in singing music efficiently. But, as it is our great tradition never to blame our teacher (or the husband) at any cost, they are blaming themselves only for their inabilities. Up to some extent it is also true in some of the cases to blame themselves for their inabilities in the grasping of the lessons or to understand them or even to practice them vigorously and regularly. But, if I write that the real culprit in this respect is only the teacher himself/herself many are ready to mistake me but not of the teacher. I myself, having been one among those culprits for many years, very well know this fact and that is why I have always been used to write like this. But the difference is, only by the grace of the Almighty, I am the only person to realise my blunders and, today, I feel very proud to become an efficient, honest and reliable teacher only basing upon the amazing results I have been getting and none of other music-teachers have changed.

The success of any novel system must be adjudged only basing upon the end result and, thus, I have already uploaded many videos of our kids to Youtube bringing out their efficiency in handling very high level rhythmical intricacies as you are also aware. I have even appealed to the teaching community many a time to view these videos, follow these modern methods in teaching music and also to upload the respective videos of their students to the Youtube. But, the fact that no such video has ever been uploaded by any other music-teacher obviously proves that none of the music-teachers is bothered neither to quicken the process of teaching nor to make the aspirants more efficient in the subject even in this modern age having many modern gadgets for our benefit.

Even when I have appealed to many of the musicians to standardise the system of writing notation by properly symbolising it in the high interests of our aspirants and the art nobody responded properly. Even when I have myself initiated the discussion on our ‘Gamakas’ through, mainly, two threads “Gamakas made easy in writing notation & Analysing and Systhesising Gamakas’ in the main thread ‘Technical discussions’ the response was very very poor and this obviously reveals that our people are more enthusiastic in knowing things but not in doing things even for our own kids and our culture. Thus, gradually, I am loosing my interest in participating even in the discussions of our forum and don’t mistake me if, in near future, I absolutely stop to participate (of course, without depending upon any body and without craving for the money or the fame or the honours or the titles, I shall always continue to serve our community in one manner or the other until my last breath). amsharma
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#27  Postby mohan » 07 Jun 2012 06:10

Here's a short track of my 3 year old son guessing ragas - something he does as a play. Shows how quick a child's brain can work!
http://soundcloud.com/mohanayyar/akshay-guessing-ragas
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#28  Postby msakella » 07 Jun 2012 07:55

Dear brother-member, mohan, Your son is able to recognise not only the Ragas but also their Arohana & Avarohana. Very nice. Your son is a prodigy. If he is initiated properly by an efficient, honest and reliable teacher he certainly becomes able to sing a concert of 1 hr. within 3 or 4 years. Wishing him all the best, amsharma
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#29  Postby rajeshnat » 07 Jun 2012 10:37

mohan wrote:Here's a short track of my 3 year old son guessing ragas - something he does as a play. Shows how quick a child's brain can work!
http://soundcloud.com/mohanayyar/akshay-guessing-ragas


Mohan
WOW WOW Akshay :clap: :clap: :clap: , knowing even nagaswarvali and bahudari. This is just too good . few years back there was a snippet of his sister singing reetigowlai that you posted , now akshay is right there. At this rate Akshay can even venture into dwi madhyama scales of s kalyanaraman.

What is the raga that he is guessing between hindolam and saveri?
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#30  Postby vasanthakokilam » 07 Jun 2012 11:18

Akshay, fantastic. You were teaching me ragas! Amazing.

>At this rate Akshay can even venture into......

writing reviews at rasikas.org :)
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#31  Postby mohan » 07 Jun 2012 11:38

Thanks all, especially Akella-ji for your blessings.

rajeshnat - the 2nd raga was hamsadhwani. Sometimes he was too quick for me to sing it properly even!

The clip is just a short sample - he knows several other ragas too. Rithika at the same age could do the same. I think kids pick up this talent like they pick up words and a language. When we get older the mind/brain is a bit slower I think.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#32  Postby msakella » 07 Jun 2012 14:39

No, I can’t agree with you. Not a bit slower, very horribly slower.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#33  Postby Tamizhisai » 07 Jun 2012 21:52

Yeah, very true! Tiger Varadachariar, Semmangudi, M.D. Ramanathan, Musiri Subramania Iyer, Harikesanallur Muthiah Bhagavathar, Prof Sambamurthy et all erred by presiding over institutions that were teaching music to adult beginners. Did they not commit a grave mistake? Most of them are run by state/central govt, wasting tax payer’s money. Its high time Akellaji stops wasting his time in the virtual world. He should start a movement and lead a fast like Anna Hazare, demanding all govts to stop their grants and closure of government-run institutions, as it’s a total waste.

In the lines of Veda Patasalas, taking only kids, private organizations should start exclusive schools for classical music. Govt can encourage them by giving tax exemptions to such schools. A large amount will be saved after closure of Govt & aided music colleges, wasting time and resources on adult learners.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#34  Postby rshankar » 07 Jun 2012 22:28

Mohan - Akshay is awesome (the mazhalai is very cute, and like many kids here in the US he rolls his 'ri' - sounds more like 'zhi'!) - blessings and best wishes for continued success! I am sure this is not the time to talk about nature versus nurture in such skills, but it is certain that he has divine skills, and you and Sangeetha have the duty (sacred duty even) to nuture this skill, and walk the razor's edge between encouraging & supporting him & getting him to maximize his potential versus being too pushy.

Tamizhisai - I don't think anyone (including Sri Akella) is saying that adult beginners can't learn music or can't learn it well (like you have done) - what is being said is that it is much easier to teach young kids. Adult-beginners may have to work much harder at learning music, while children just seem to absorb stuff effortlessly, like sponges.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#35  Postby nadhasudha » 07 Jun 2012 22:52

If performance is not the goal of learning music, age is not a bar to start anytime. Yes it is difficult to learn new things when you are older, however you enjoy the learning process more. You are able to reflect and appreciate every nuance and every detail and revel in the beauty of the music. I firmly believe that things come to you when you are ready for it and have the intense desire or longing for it.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#36  Postby Tamizhisai » 07 Jun 2012 23:33

I fully endorse nadhasudha's views. Hope you got the sarcasm in my earlier post.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#37  Postby mahavishnu » 08 Jun 2012 02:46

Mohan: Very impressive :clap:
and cute too! I love the way he says Saveri like Strawberry. Rajesh, I think it was Hamsadwani that he called before that (and from just 3-4 notes in one pidi).

Sutthi podungo!
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#38  Postby rajeshnat » 08 Jun 2012 12:35

Mohan,
At 02:22 between sankarabharanam and vasanta what does he try to say when he says "saya naya tone????" I am assuming you tried dwijAvanti there

In 03:36 does he say madhyamavati as maddumo or something before correcting as shreerAgam

After bahudari what does he say till 04:40 ?? I think you are giving 2 more ragas after bahudari
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#39  Postby msakella » 08 Jun 2012 15:13

If a limb of our body is hurt we all possibly try to rectify it but not to remove it. In the same manner, to strengthen our country in every respect, we all must possibly try to rectify the defects of all these institutions run by Central or State Governments in the process of making them all serve the public efficiently, honestly and reliably. I don’t think that closure of these institutions will any way serve our purpose. Intelligents can go anywhere and survive as they like. But what about the inefficients of our land? Irrespective of the hurdles we come across, is it not our collective duty to bring out all the facts, enlighten our people and make them efficient to survive themselves wherever they go? My pen and tongue may be sharper and bitter but that is what I have been able to do even at this fag end of my life. I hope all my brothers and sisters also do this for the sake of our land.

As our brother-member, rshankar, wrote I reiterate that it is easier to kids to learn music very fast and it takes much longer time to adults to learn the same. I did never mean that the adult-beginners should be deprived of learning music. amsharma
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#40  Postby mohan » 08 Jun 2012 17:17

rajeshnat wrote:At 02:22 between sankarabharanam and vasanta what does he try to say when he says "saya naya tone????" I am assuming you tried dwijAvanti there
Rajesh - again please excuse my singing. He says 'sahana you told me' meaning I sang sahana. I think I tried dwijanvanti later which he got.
In 03:36 does he say madhyamavati as maddumo or something before correcting as shreerAgam

yup he says madyamavati first
After bahudari what does he say till 04:40 ?? I think you are giving 2 more ragas after bahudari

in the end there is the arohana/avarohana of kuntalavarali to which he sings a refrain of Dr Balamuralikrishna's tillana and then says kuntavAli. After that there is kadanakuthuhalam.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#41  Postby nadhasudha » 09 Jun 2012 05:31

Mohan - Just listened to Akshay's raga deciphering - Amazing :) - For some ragas he also manages to sing the first few lines of the composition - for Begada - he starts singing Vallabha Nayakasya. He appears to know the scales of ragas such as Shankarabharanam. The Mazhalai is cute to listen too :)

Wishing him many many happy years learning and singing music. God Bless him!
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#42  Postby adhira » 22 Jun 2012 18:04

There is neither an upper nor a lower limit on age to learn, and as far as I know there no particular age to start learning music because as you can see many of our singers started learning music in a very early age.
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#43  Postby msakella » 22 Jun 2012 19:07

Dear b/s-member, adhira, As you wrote there is neither an upper nor a lower limit on age to learn music but, as you also wrote, it is preferable to start learning music at a very early age. amsharma
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#44  Postby varsha » 23 Jun 2012 07:55

Age to start Learning ?
Annapoorna Devi asked Chaurasia (who had come to learn from her in his thirties ) , as to how he could unlearn all that he had learnt - as a precondition . And he switched over to left handed playing to make sure nothing of his early training came into picture :?:
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Re: Age to start learning carnatic music

#45  Postby msakella » 24 Jun 2012 02:33

In respect of teaching music there is one very important difference to note. Since many centuries, in the traditional and quantitative method in teaching followed by all the teachers they, very conveniently escaping from the responsibility of inculcating the knowledge of Manodharma Sangita, are used to teach only a number of items starting from Saralee-svaras up to Krits etc., to the aspirants irrespective of their abilities in Laya or Shruti or grasping or understanding or reproducing etc. of the aspirants. Even in this modern age where facilities either to travel fast to other places or to quickly learn the lessons fast basing upon the modern gadgets like Electronic-tamburas or Metronomes or cassettes or CDs or mp3 players etc., etc., most unfortunately, the process of teaching or learning has never been made fast by these music-teachers as they always want to earn as much as they can very quietly from the innocent aspirants and their parents by elongating the process of it.

But, in the modern qualitative method in teaching, unlike in the past, the entire material of the items of the lessons is invariably supplied in the form of audio or video or printed or pdf files to the aspirant even in the beginni9ng itself and the process of teaching has possibly been made ‘time-bound and result-oriented’. Even the teaching is mainly based on the inherent talent of the aspirant and by increasing it by a number of aids always initiating the aspirant to do things on his own to remove the dependency of the aspirant and also to make him self-confident.

By all this, while only less than 20% of the aspirants are able to become professionals on their own accord but not basing upon the efficiency in teaching by learning in the quantitative and traditional method, more than 80% of the kids are able to attain higher standards within a very short time, unlike in the past, by learning in the novel and qualitative method.

Our Indian music, either southern or northern, is mostly based on Manodharma unlike any other system of the remaining world. It is an interesting case to know whether it is possible to mentally forget the music already learnt for many years by merely changing physically to the left hand training? amsharma
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