Discussion on Secular Themes in CM

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music

#76  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 06 Feb 2008 21:10

Vidya,

Thanks for the effort. Let me try to explain in a different way.

I fully comprehend your point. When I was a teenager, I was somewhat frustrated (are you are) by the seemingly "recurrent" or "templated" compositions. I had mentally categorized (half in jest and half in frustration) Dikshitar as "Mr. Bhajeham", Shastri as "Mr. Nannubrova", and Swati as "Mr. Pahimam". The compositions of Tyagaraja seemed to directly speak to me without the seemingly roundabout approach of compound words and personality-based dissemination of ideas.

Later on it became clearer to me that this had little to do with who was more or less creative, but rather had to do with the objective. MD, ST, and SS used the "templated" approach because it greatly suits their objective of disseminating spiritual ideas through puranic legends. Tyagaraja used the "direct" approach because he went out into the street to do "bhajan", wherein a direct dialogue with his audience would generate "easier results" in the manner of draksha rather than narikela.

Note that MD and Tyagaraja were friends, they are supposed to have listened regularly to each other's compositions. I am pretty sure neither had a feeling that one was at a "lower rung" than the other. At the same time, MD did not deviate (for the most part) from his approach, and Tyagaraja from his. Note that Tyagaraja had no lack of Sanskrit ability. Most likely, both he and MD could converse fluently in Sanskrit. However, when he composed in Sanskrit he also adopted the same "templated" approach. That should tell you something about the reasons for adopting the "epithet"-based (or "templated" as you call it) approach.

In this process I frequently ended up being challenged in trying to express what I wanted to express. Perhaps a reflection of my limited/rusty sanskrt vocabulary . I found that the same thought process flowed much more freely in Tamil. Again I typically stop with writing poetry as I am rather musically challenged in a lot of ways.

Clearly, I am not in a position to advise you why you are challenged by this. As I mentioned, this is not particularly difficult to do. The bhagavad gita is written in this style (with the adavntage that it can afford to ramble on for 18 chapters unlike the CM composer who has 5 minutes to express his idea). The upanishads are written in a contemplative style, sometimes switching to dialogue between characters.

Let me make it clear that I am all for different approaches to compositions. If you decide to compose in the "direct" style satisfying the technical guidelines, you have my full support. This thread is regarding overarching secular themes, not to promote the specific composition style of one composer or other.

What is strongly disagree with is your notion of "templated approaches" being on a "lower rung" of creativity. As I have explained above, this has nothing to do with creativity. Simply two different methods that appeal to different people and have different objectives.

Now, my specific responses to your concluding points:

1.Whether you write secular or religious or musical theme why are'nt we as a generation emulating the trinity
in their 'out of the box' thinking and stop with emulating in their templates and contents?

Emulation is not the root cause of what you see today. As with all change, it is gradual. Some elements of the "older" approaches are retained, some others are changed. As I said, I am not against your approach to composition. Please go ahead. As I also mentioned, I will be happy to compose in this manner as well. Hopefully it will convince you that both approaches have merit.

2.If you want to compose please do not stop at the lowest rung of creativity.

I think we all understand this. However, your notion of "epithet"-based composition style (regardless of theme) being on a "lower rung" is not well considered. Possibly, your own frustration with your perceived linguistic capabilities drives you to this assertion. I am pretty "catholic" in my reception to new ideas, and I have never claimed that secular themes are "superior" to religious ones. I only claimed that they need to be emphasized more and are equally valid in CM experience. I urge you to take a similar approach to the technical issues such as composition style (which are not really the primary subject of this thread).

3.A hundred theoritical arguments apart, this is a suggestion to the active members of this site:
Why don't we take up some theme of the month in the innovations forum and let the various folks here take a jab at composing, the more the languages the better (The more languages the better and see where it goes, it certainly would be a good exercise)

Sure, please go ahead. I personally do not compose for a specific occasion or as an exercise. I prefer to "craft" my compositions over a long period of time. One point that has not been mentioned (but I am sure you understand) is that it is ultimately about music as an art. Simply composing a nice poem is no use if it does not seamlessly integrate with the pure music.

Best Wishes,
SR
  • 0

Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#77  Postby vidya » 06 Feb 2008 21:17

Uday,
Since this thread was about secular themes I referred to innovation in lyrical content. Musical innovation is another dimension and obviously if you take the musical context out it ceases to be a composition.Ideally one should have both. Just as lyrics are stuck in the template-mode , my complaint is that musical innovation in the last 50-100 yrs stops with creating, naming and a varja patterns in scales. May be explore creation of a new navrOj or a sthayi based rAga etc?
SR,
In that case I would like to request you to craft a composition just to see how it turns out
1.That is not on a person
2.That is not on a deity
  • 0

vidya
 
Posts: 234
Joined: 02 Feb 2010 23:26
Reputation: 2

#78  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 06 Feb 2008 21:21

Uday_Shankar wrote:The lyrical content of musical compositions I should imagine are at the lower rungs of poetry ? Can't one look for much more creative poetry towards Kalidasa, etc.. than say towards MD ?

Uday, right on. There was a discussion on this in a different thread. Modern composers have actually put in some thought/comparison of different approaches to composition as taken by previous composers. Only a tiny fraction of that thought is expressed on this forum:

http://rasikas.org/viewtopic.php?id=3362&p=2

(posts #43-48 of that thread are probably relevant to the issue of "quality of poetry").

The poetry in CM is indeed much different from that in classical Sanskrit poetry, not because composers like MD, Tyagaraja etc. were not capable, it is primarily because they used what suited their musical objectives best. On the other hand, ST shows shades of classical poetry in his "flights of fancy" that he engages in. If one is talking about *demonstrated* felicity with poetry, then one can argue superficially that Kalidasa was a way better poet than Dikshitar, or whether Tyagaraja's composition style was on a "higher rung" than Dikshitar. But indeed I think such comparisons are apples-to-oranges and ultimately futile.

SR
  • 0

Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#79  Postby arasi » 06 Feb 2008 21:46

Well said, Uday!
Bhakti (I mean it strictly in the temple-going sense here) with unlimited use of styrofoam is just as bad as committing atrocities and depositing huge sums of money in the tirupati huNDi.While temple-going is a good practice and is good for our kids, HOW you go about it is yet another thing. The styrofoam which figures in an american temple is figurative too in that it stands for not caring about: feeling one with humanity, helping out , feeling a sense of tranquility, all of which make temple-going an elevating experience.A temple is a gathering place for the community where children can learn by example--worshiping in an atmosphere of joy, meeting friends, listening to chants and singing, enjoy looking at the architecture, the decorated gods and listening to music, watching cultural programs and learning to care about social and environmental issues--where business, the stock market and property prices are not discussed...

SR,
You are right. We have reached the limit of our discussions, it seems. It wasn't meant in the first place that secular themes should oust the religious ones. If one were to ask, 'why isn't such and such a rAgA not sung at all nowadays? We should hear more of it', no one minds. This question about including more of non-religious songs in concerts seems to disturb some.
While many of my compositions are about one god or the other, I am glad I have a few which can be sung without connecting them to any particular god. I have thought often that it would be nice if I could get more of such songs...
  • 0

Last edited by arasi on 06 Feb 2008 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
arasi
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: 22 Jun 2006 09:30
Reputation: 75

#80  Postby hsuvarna » 06 Feb 2008 23:50

Sorry. I could not get back due to work load. By the time, the thread has grown a lot.

Arasi, you mentioned about lullabies and peasants singing freely in the fields, singing about earth or water or nature. All these subjects are universal. Everyone had experienced it, depend on them and enjoyed. So any song on them would be great to here. All these items are on doing duty without expecting anything in return. I welcome items centering on these themes. This is what I was thinking when I started to read the posts and the thread.

I commend the efforts of Sangita Rasikan for thinking newly. I also commend himn for using sanskrit to compose some of his songs. I also appreciate heartily, when he said more compositions are needed about Indian Civilisation which is rich. Indian Civilisation or the culture is all about that secret 'what after life/death', 'who am i' 'what is my dharma/duty'. Tons of stories and subjects centering around this theme of looking inner side are available in India for thousands of centuries. Compositions on these are welcome. Let us remember dadhiichi's sacrifice, about shibi, about the yaksha prashnalu, about vidura niti, about ranti deva's sacrifice or about the mongoose in dharama raja's yaga or about river ganges or himalayas or aaravali mountains or importance of satyam/shivam/sundaram or about all the preachings which make our life balanced.

But when I started to read the other thread on SR's compositions pointed to by Vasantha Kokila. I was hugely disappointed to see some of the the compositions on some contemporary persons. Do you need sanskrit and also the grammar/rules of CM to write on these? What a waste of knowledge by SR. I condemn secular music and I am very apprehensive of what may come out. Once the corruption of CM starts, no one can stop it. Where is my Tyagaraja's greatest ranjani composition 'Palukubotini sabha lona patita maanavula kosagi, khalula nechhata pogadana' and where are these compositions? How can I hear the neraval on some of these contemporary subjects chosen by SR? I am hugely dissapointed. Do we want to add subjects like reservations/religion-balance/dowry problems to a CM concert? We have lots of other channels to discuss these problems. Today if I goto CM concert, I know, what to expect? I am content with that. The tools like Rama, krishna, Murugan, compositions by unselfish/sacrifice-surrounded Tyagaraja/Ramadasu/MD help me point me to iiner side. Why you want to take away that from me?

I don't need any secular music. I am quite happy with it. Some other member bala or sbala said some thing like 'we agree up on the secular theme....' kind of statement. No that is not true. I am not agreing with this theme. I am very afraid of where it will lead me to and what kind of concert it will lead me to. For this reason, I also request the respected administrators to close this thread.
  • 0

hsuvarna
 
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 06:47
Reputation: 0

#81  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 07 Feb 2008 00:10

hsuvarna wrote:But when I started to read the other thread on SR's compositions pointed to by Vasantha Kokila. I was hugely disappointed to see some of the the compositions on some contemporary persons. Do you need sanskrit and also the grammar/rules of CM to write on these? What a waste of knowledge by SR. I condemn secular music and I am very apprehensive of what may come out. Once the corruption of CM starts, no one can stop it. Where is my Tyagaraja's greatest ranjani composition 'Palukubotini sabha lona patita maanavula kosagi, khalula nechhata pogadana' and where are these compositions? How can I hear the neraval on some of these contemporary subjects chosen by SR? I am hugely dissapointed. Do we want to add subjects like reservations/religion-balance/dowry problems to a CM concert?

:D There is no need to get worked up, I think. As I mentioned, this thread is not about my compositions. Also, this is not the first time (nor probably the last) that my approach has caused concern of "corruption" and "waste of knowledge". However, this is changing and unfortunately, it cannot be prevented by insular reactions by those who want to maintain "purity" of CM . Regarding some of the subjects you mentioned, I don't see why not (the main question is how it is done).

We have lots of other channels to discuss these problems. Today if I goto CM concert, I know, what to expect? I am content with that. The tools like Rama, krishna, Murugan, compositions by unselfish/sacrifice-surrounded Tyagaraja/Ramadasu/MD help me point me to iiner side. Why you want to take away that from me?

Are you OK or in an excited state ? Is anyone "taking away" your favorite compositions or themes ?

I don't need any secular music. I am quite happy with it. Some other member bala or sbala said some thing like 'we agree up on the secular theme....' kind of statement. No that is not true. I am not agreing with this theme. I am very afraid of where it will lead me to and what kind of concert it will lead me to. For this reason, I also request the respected administrators to close this thread.

Nobody asked you to accept it. This is not a poll or election, nor a thread asking for your decision on the subject. However, every society has a small number of people who are willing to try new things, a small number of people who are very much against doing so, and a large number of fence-sitters. As for your "thread-closure" request, I will be extremely surprised if mods close this thread.

SR
  • 0

Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008 00:11, edited 1 time in total.
Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#82  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 07 Feb 2008 00:18

vidya wrote:In that case I would like to request you to craft a composition just to see how it turns out
1.That is not on a person
2.That is not on a deity

Yes, as I mentioned before. It is on my list of "things to do", and should be fun as well.

SR
  • 0

Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#83  Postby vasanthakokilam » 07 Feb 2008 00:24

No thread closing though I thought of closing it for half an hour just to get SR surprised :P

On such lighter note, I think hsuarna is afraid that SR's ideas will spread like wild fire causing the 'secular isai movement' to take hold. Then I can imagine ( my flights of fancy ) Music Academy passing a resolution that those who pertake in such 'nonsense' would be banned from singing at the Academy ;)
  • 0

vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9697
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 26

#84  Postby cmlover » 07 Feb 2008 00:59

I feel totally handicapped not being able to participate in this fascinating discussion due to my overriding computer problems. SR, Vidya and VGV have held their forts valiantly and I hope something good comes out of these verbal duels from performers who read these threads and who are capable of charting 'new' directions in CM. At present I could not resist expressing some views though it may take a while before I could participate fully!

I view CM as a 'phonetic language' with a clear grammar and structure with potential to evolve (by this I mean it is not a 'closed' language and that the final word has been pronounced). CM can exist on its own without any support from any of the other languages since it communicates directly with the 'inner soul' (primitive emotions/moods and feelings). For example one can enjoy CM intrinsically without knowing any language in which lyrics are composed. In fact we can throw away all the compositions of the Trinity (which is the current mainstay of the performing CM) (not that we should (God Forbid!) and yet CM will be totally viable on its individual merits. The checks and balances that are part of the 'CM grammar' tell us what it is and also warn us when it is violated. No doubt the Trinity have made a Himalayan contribution by showing examples of the use of the grammar by fashioning kritis. By their nature 'bhakti' has become an overriding theme of these kritis and hence CM has come to be predominantly identified with 'bhakti'. Let me digress here to cite an example. Vedic sanskrit had a strict grammar and intonation and topics which could not be used for regular or scholarly communications. Panini logically codified the language refining it (samskrita) which led to the classical Sanskrit which became a versatile medium of scholarly communication. Similarly CM is capable of conveying any ideas or associations in any language if handled by an expert appropriately. Unfortunately the pattern (including the muusical templates) of the Trinity have been fossilized by their shishyas who could not think independantly (or even would not think differently due to Guru Bhakti). From time to time sparkling glimpses of other 'musical' aspects of CM have been independantly demonstarated by genius like Mali, LGJ, BMK but on the whole the performing groups have not amply capitalized on those ideas! Some worthwhile ideas have been dismissed as just fads!

Secular development of CM need not necessarily be language oriented. RTP is a fine example of CM which is language free and an expert performer can drive the Rasikas into ecstasy through effective and novel prayaogas based strictly on his imagination. Similarly an inspired tani can standout uniquely at the hands of a laya expert. No doubt these require expert knowledge for the performer as well as on the part of the Rasikas to appreciate. Most of the Rasikas learn to appreciate CM only through the kritis and are brainwashed into identifying CM with the 'language' and the associated themes. We need to train a new breed of 'Teachers' of CM who can communicate the grammar and fundamentals 'away' from the geethams and kirtanas. More emphasis has to be given to raga aalaapana and the ability to use imagination and manodharma. Most of all more research is needed to scientifically investigate ragas, new gamaka patterns, tala structures, adapting new instruments as well as harnessing the power of computer oriented structures etc., and also fundamental research directed specifially at CM psycho-acoustics. We are lucky that some of our bright youngsters are taking an interest in CM and we can hope that combined with their technical skills, independent thinking and freedom from prejudice they will be able to chalk out new directions in CM in the 21st century so that CM may break out of the shackles forged in the 19th century which have gotten rusted in the name of orthodoxy during the 20th century.
  • 0

cmlover
Moderator
 
Posts: 11491
Joined: 02 Feb 2010 22:36
Reputation: 1

#85  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 07 Feb 2008 01:16

vasanthakokilam wrote:No thread closing ...

( my flights of fancy ) Music Academy passing a resolution that those who pertake in such 'nonsense' would be banned from singing at the Academy ;)

....or be subject to "thread-removal" :P sorry just could not resist that one.

SR
  • 0

Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008 01:17, edited 1 time in total.
Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#86  Postby vasanthakokilam » 07 Feb 2008 01:18

:lol: SR.. It took me a few seconds to get that..
  • 0

vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9697
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 26

#87  Postby kkumar29 » 07 Feb 2008 01:43

CML has, in my opinion, expressed what CM is really all about. Unfortunately when someone raises these points like SR did, people somehow feel threatened and assume such voices are against bhakthi and are going to pollute/dilute CM. They seem to be harbouring this fear that the new CM (with secular compositions) is so blasphemous, that all compositions of Trinities will somehow vanish. From the responses I have seen so far to questions raised by SR, I have only seen emotional responses but no logical well thought out reasons as to why compositions with secular themes can not be sung in concerts. I have not read a single post from him that derides the compositions of Trinity but all he has been saying is to include compositions of secular themes. I do not see why a song by Subramania Bharathi like "sindhu nadiyin misai nilavinile" in sindhubhairavi is somehow less musical than any other composition in Sindhubhairavi.

However this thread does provide an insight into why people haven't succeeded in introducing secular or other themes into carnatic music :)

K. Kumar
  • 0

kkumar29
 
Posts: 46
Joined: 04 Feb 2010 20:26
Reputation: 0

#88  Postby hsuvarna » 07 Feb 2008 02:53

===================
SR: Are you OK or in an excited state ? Is anyone "taking away" your favorite compositions or themes ?
=====================

I am OK. How about you? You are getting mixed up in threads.
I am honestly not sure about the future of my fav compositions once the new age starts.
======================
SR:
Nobody asked you to accept it. This is not a poll or election, nor a thread asking for your decision on the subject. However, every society has a small number of people who are willing to try new things, a small number of people who are very much against doing so, and a large number of fence-sitters. As for your "thread-closure" request, I will be extremely surprised if mods close this thread.
==============================================

Nobody asked me to deny or write or read. Just the same way as multiple members here.
  • 0

hsuvarna
 
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 06:47
Reputation: 0

#89  Postby kjrao » 07 Feb 2008 05:08

The secular themes mentioned by Uday are very important indeed. In principle, there is no reason why they should not be in CM sahitya. However, other mediums may be more suited to spread such message. CM Rasikas are exposed to other mediums as well !!! and not having such themes in CM will not be a handicap. The CM Music courses in Universities can encourage students to compose in such themes and try out. We can only speculate its effect and lasting appeal !
  • 0

kjrao
 
Posts: 49
Joined: 15 May 2007 08:01
Reputation: 0

#90  Postby sbala » 07 Feb 2008 07:57

hsuvarna - I wanted to clarify that my stance has always been that we should be open to new themes as long as there is a process to ensure quality. I believed there was a general agreement on that front. I also did not agree with what I believed were alarmist views on assured death of CM if it purely stuck with bhakti. Again, I could have misinterpreted those arguments. Apart from that, I do not have any other views on this subject.

I too was diverted and disappointed by SR's compositions(only the 2 or 3 compositions mentioned in this thread) and lost my cool a bit (blame it on high expectations and also on a couple of sleepless nights of Lisp programming) but like he said, his compositions are not the subject of this debate. That was purely an error of judgment from my side and thats why I wanted to withdraw that post if SR found it offensive.
  • 0

sbala
 
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 08:56
Reputation: 0

#91  Postby Sangeet Rasik » 07 Feb 2008 08:24

sbala wrote:hsuvarna - I wanted to clarify that my stance has always been that we should be open to new themes as long as there is a process to ensure quality.

Thanks for the clarification. The main problem I have had in our exchange is that you did not define what makes for "high quality". This is still a valid topic for the thread. When new themes come in, how does one judge "quality" ?

Please note I do not mean to say that "quality standards" do not exist and that we need to develop "new quality standards". The standards exist as defined by Indian musicologists (and their views are very broad unlike the narrowmindedness and obscurantism I see in some of the "bhakti"-based CM enthusiasts and self-proclaimed traditionalists), and these standards are quite timeless as far as I can see.

I too was diverted and disappointed by SR's compositions(only the 2 or 3 compositions mentioned in this thread) and lost my cool a bit (blame it on high expectations and also on a couple of sleepless nights of Lisp programming)

At the risk of diverting the thread topic, let me mention that:

1. No composer ever has had "universal popularity" with all compositions. I have posted a number of pieces on various subjects. Some may appeal more to a "conservative" audience, others to a more "liberal" audience, others to all, and yet others to none.

2. Art takes time to be "digested" and fully understood. Contemporary composers will be better judged by future generations, just as past ones are evaluated by us today. I am yet to come across a "super-critic" who can critique a CM composition without even hearing it rendered, or for that matter without defining what "quality" is, hence I suspect some of the comments are based on a very limited understanding of what a vaggeyakara is.

I will rest my views on "my compositions" here, since it is not becoming to comment on my own work unless goaded/provoked. I want to avoid the possibility of comments that are based upon incomplete information and knee-jerk responses biasing future readers coming across this thread.

SR
  • 0

Last edited by Sangeet Rasik on 07 Feb 2008 09:01, edited 1 time in total.
Sangeet Rasik
 
Posts: 591
Joined: 16 May 2006 00:19
Reputation: 0

#92  Postby sbala » 07 Feb 2008 09:12

SR,
I agree with you that it was a response based on instinct rather than any thorough research or analysis or a complete understanding of what a vaggeyakara is. And there is no doubt that there might be a lot of merit in those compositions that I did not see at that moment. And that is precisely why I take back those statements.

As far as what I mean by quality, I'm looking more at the processes that need be in place rather than coming up with properties that a composition should satisfy. Do we just rely on a free market mechanism where an artiste decides to sing what he/she wants and let the rasikas be the judge of what is good or what is not? Or do we have a body of eminent scholars that lays down a set of standards of what is acceptable and what is not taking into account history, tradition and the progress that we wish to make? I believe it has to be a combination of both. I don't know if such an approach exists now or even if it is workable in art.
  • 0

sbala
 
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 08:56
Reputation: 0

#93  Postby hsuvarna » 07 Feb 2008 09:41

sbala, thanks for your clarifications and reply. I am glad to know that car/cdr is still alive.

When SR says he preaches and by examples, SR1, SR2, SR3 all get influenced. So I can very well expect a barrage of songs on people whom they believe are great contemporaries or subjects. Sri Lalu Yadav will definitely be followed by Ms. Phulan or Ms. Mayavati or Sri Mulayam or Sri Sharukh. Then come Tatas and Birlas who have sponsor power and just like a Othukkad Kavi's day or Diskhitar Day, you will have eprson X's compositions theme.

If not that extreme or pessimistic, on a music season day, artist A will sing a song supporting a theme, In the next slot artist B will sing condemning the views in that. Universality can mean common agreement to some extent. We don't have the problem with current day subjects like Rama. How many fence sitters have the problem?

New things are welcome. I mentioned some subjects which are common to everyone, someone else may mention some other non-controversial subjects. We can have good songs and concerts.
SR and his/her compositions/tastes are not the cynosure here but they are very much an indication of new stuff to come.

While we are at it on the thread, gender problem came. In the other thread on SR's compositions caste thing was mentioned somewhere. NRIs, RIs so many bifurcations may come. There is no discussion on what could be the new stuff , yeah we must try new ideas, CM is static, This is what some members say.

How much Ghazal sangeet contributed to HM classical. A few ghazal singers became rich. That is about it.
Let there be N derivatives out of the base. Why to shake the base with grand new stuff?
  • 0

hsuvarna
 
Posts: 138
Joined: 27 Aug 2006 06:47
Reputation: 0

#94  Postby coolkarni » 07 Feb 2008 09:59

How much Ghazal sangeet contributed to HM classical. A few ghazal singers became rich. That is about it.

An illformed opinion I must say.
Unless we are talking of the kind of Ghazal Delivery that Hariharan excels in.

BGAK once wailed in an interview that his music was targetted as that coming from a Thumri Singer and so will always have the light influence
http://rapidshare.com/files/89791675/BGAK.mp3.html
Here is a beauty of a Phase where he traces childhood Memories feeding on the impulses of Ustads as they mature into Classical Mode.

If you still hold on to that view , I threaten to upload the full interview !!

:D
  • 0

Last edited by coolkarni on 07 Feb 2008 09:59, edited 1 time in total.
coolkarni
 
Posts: 1729
Joined: 22 Nov 2007 06:42
Reputation: 0

#95  Postby vijay » 07 Feb 2008 10:58

Wow this thread has really grown many charanams! Keep it going folks....Uday's articulate post best represents my own position...
  • 0

vijay
 
Posts: 2522
Joined: 27 Feb 2006 16:06
Reputation: 1

#96  Postby arasi » 07 Feb 2008 11:15

CML,
Started wondering if you were well, not hearing from you for the past few days when this thread was being spun with 'spark'ling colors! It was just your computer, thank goodness! By the way, speedy recovery, computer...
I suppose Suvarna realizes that our ages put together can take us back to a century or two considering this century is still very young :)
VK,
'The removal of the thread also reminded me of the opposite ceremony--of Bharati initiating one for whatever his name!
  • 0

arasi
 
Posts: 12498
Joined: 22 Jun 2006 09:30
Reputation: 75

#97  Postby nathikan » 07 Feb 2008 13:27

hsuvarna wrote:Universality can mean common agreement to some extent. We don't have the problem with current day subjects like Rama.

Is it agreement when people who dissent have no voice? I mean, plenty of people think of Rama as contemptible but at present they only have a choice of not listening to CM or not paying attention to the lyrics.

What I find interesting is that there are plenty of well-regarded present day vocalists like Bombay Jayashree who are atheists, I wonder if they provide impetus or support for secular or (why not?) militantly atheist compositions...
  • 0

nathikan
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 01:40
Reputation: 0

#98  Postby vasanthakokilam » 07 Feb 2008 13:49

nathikan, I have respect for those atheists who respect the believers even if they disagree. But why should atheism be militant and why should there be compositions that reflect militant atheism? I think that is a huge leap from secular themes which is the topic of this thread.
  • 0

vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9697
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 26

#99  Postby sbala » 07 Feb 2008 13:52

hsuvarna wrote:I am glad to know that car/cdr is still alive.

Count on me to support rare artforms! Yes, I consider Lisp a work of art.

Anyway, I don't want to get drawn into specific composer's work or even a specific composition. I made a mistake and I do not want to bring in a composer's work even for illustrative purposes. What I was always interested in is how do you maintain quality as you allow new changes. We cannot just let our fears of the future cajole us into inaction. Instead of arguing further, let me suggest this approach. This itself could ruffle a few people.

1. Introduce a rating agency that employs eminent scholars who rate every composition that is submitted to them. Please observe that it is optional for a composer to go through this process. Obviously, the agency will have some standards to judge the compositions. What those standards are, is possibly the next step and I would leave it to knowledgeable people to discuss them

2. Some might argue if the Trinity did not have to go through this process, why should the modern composers be subjected to it. That is why I said step 1 is optional. If you do not want to get your work certified/rated, you are free to take your composition to market without that rating. The assumption here is the rating agency will become credible over a period of time and their rating would give a reasonable indicator of the composition and could lead to easier path in popularising it eg recording companies might start giving more weightage.

My justification for the process is
1. If films can go through this, why not CM?
2. If artistes can get certified by AIR, why not compositions?

Ofcourse, I don't know if such an arrangement is already in place
  • 0

sbala
 
Posts: 629
Joined: 30 Jul 2006 08:56
Reputation: 0

#100  Postby nathikan » 07 Feb 2008 14:26

vasanthakokilam wrote:why should there be compositions that reflect militant atheism?

FOR THE SHEER, REFRESHING PLEASURE OF IT.

As for respect.... I think it's more that these artists know which side their bread is buttered. I could even posit that singing lyrics more in tune with their actual views might provide for richer bhavam? It would be exciting to find out.
  • 0

nathikan
 
Posts: 27
Joined: 08 Oct 2007 01:40
Reputation: 0

PreviousNext

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: cienu

Reputation System ©'