Concept korvai

Miscellaneous topics on Carnatic music

Concept korvai

#1  Postby chitravina ravikiran » 17 Jan 2012 16:45

Here is a concept for korvais or even simple finishes that I have been working on. I'd like percussionists and rhythm enthusiast rasikas to take a look at an example (for Adi tala) below and give me your feedback. The concept can be employed in kalpana swaras as well as percussion improvs.

ta - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - ta dhi . ki . | Ta . tom - ta .. dhi . | . ki . . Ta . . tom || (can be rendered 3 times as well).
chitravina ravikiran
 
Posts: 170
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 10:30
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#2  Postby MaheshS » 17 Jan 2012 21:03

For novices like me, can you also include swaras for the above korvai in say Mohanam? It makes it easier to visualise, hopefully this does not distract things. Thanks!
MaheshS
 
Posts: 386
Joined: 02 Feb 2010 22:36
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#3  Postby vasanthakokilam » 17 Jan 2012 23:36

Sri Ravikiran: Very nice. Enjoyed playing a few random bits to that pattern. ( Since Mahesh asked, my first pattern was G P. GRS RSDDP D S. R. G. D P.. G.. R.. S.. R - just as a sample)

One question. A short followed by a long has an implicit eduppu with the beat stress fallingon the beginning of the long which means the beginning short falls in between beats. I see your alignment is on the beat ( sama eduppu ). Is that intentional to create a tension which we normally sense in kOrvais? Will it still work if I shift it so the beginning 'ta' is not on the beat?
vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9525
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#4  Postby chitravina ravikiran » 18 Jan 2012 05:39

VK: It is intended to work for any eduppu.

Mahesh: Let me give an example in Hamsadhwani (for say, Vatapi ganapatim):

G - R , - G R S - G R S N P - R S , N , P , G - P , , G , , R , , S , , R || (Vatapi) (It can be rendered 3 times with varying swaras too, before landing on the song.)

My question is: does the pattern come through as sensible and logical? Aesthetically, it can be quite attractive if rendered well.
chitravina ravikiran
 
Posts: 170
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 10:30
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#5  Postby MV » 18 Jan 2012 06:05

Much like. Ok to steal?
MV
 
Posts: 291
Joined: 19 Dec 2009 08:01
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#6  Postby sureshvv » 18 Jan 2012 08:10

@VK: Can you play and upload? Pretty please :-) ?
sureshvv
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#7  Postby vasanthakokilam » 18 Jan 2012 11:44

Ravikiran, yes it does look logical and sensible to me. Your well written notation was very helpful in comprehending it for an amateur like me.

Suresh: This is dangerous grounds ;) but since you asked here is my attempt: http://soundcloud.com/carnatic-music-up ... k-korvai-1

I really do not know how to play a Korvai. Not sure aesthetically this is what RK had in mind.
vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9525
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#8  Postby SahanaVasud » 18 Jan 2012 13:07

chitravina ravikiran wrote:ta - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - ta dhi . ki . | Ta . tom - ta .. dhi . | . ki . . Ta . . tom || (can be rendered 3 times as well).

Ravikiran Sir,
Is this intended to be the Fibonacci sequence?
ta = 1, tam . = 2, takiTa = 3, takatakiTa = 5, ta dhi . ki . Ta . tom = 8, ta .. dhi .. ki .. Ta .. tom = 13
A similar sequence will work for Khanda triputa, tisra nadai 2 kalai = 54 aksharams. In this case, we need to add an extra first term of 1 since 1+2+3+5+8+13+21=53, but this is okay because it does not alter the pattern of the Fibonacci numbers (since some consider the Fibonacci numbers to start with 1, 1, 2, 3, etc. instead of 1, 2, 3, etc.).
In this case, we have the following korvai:
ta - ka - tam . - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.ta.tom - ta..dhi..ki..Ta|..tom - ta...ka...ta|...ki...Ta...thom||
In general, if we consider korvais of consecutive Fibonacci numbers starting from either 1, 2, 3, etc. or 1, 1, 2, 3, etc., then we can use the fact that 1+1+2+...+F_n = F_(n+2) - 1 (where F_n denotes the nth Fibonacci number) to find all the common talams for which we can make a korvai like this. The number of aksharams in the talam must be either some Fibonacci number -1 or some Fibonacci number -2 (for the cases when we start from 1, 1, 2, 3 etc. and 1, 2, 3, etc. respectively). Since all the common talams have a minimum of around 12 aksharams, we only need to consider Fibonacci numbers greater than 12. We can do a case-by-case analysis.
Case 1) 13: 13-1=12, 13-2=11. 11 is prime, so we can disregard this case (since most talams have a composite number of aksharas). For 12 aksharams, we have roopaka talam, so in this case, we get ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa
Case 2) 21: 21-1=20, 21-2=19. Again, 19 is prime. For 20, we have khanda ekam, chatusra nadai (or chatusra ekam, khanda nadai), and the korvai is: ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.Ta.tom
Case 3) 34: 34-1=33, 34-2=32 which is your original korvai. For 33, we have misra jati triputa talam, tisra nadai, and the korvai is: ta - ka - tam. - takiTa - takatakiTa - tadhi.ki.Ta.tom - ta..dhi..ki..Ta..tom (which is your original korvai with an extra 1 aksharam added at the beginning).
Case 4) 55: 55-1=54, which gives the the korvai I wrote in the beginning, 55-2=53 which is prime.
This analysis can be continued for higher Fibonacci numbers.

Sahana
SahanaVasud
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 04:33
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#9  Postby sureshvv » 18 Jan 2012 13:25

VK.. Thanks. Sounded great, Still trying to wrap my brain around this.
sureshvv
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#10  Postby msakella » 18 Jan 2012 14:08

Chi. Ravikiran dear, I am unable to see any logic in your pattern. Even aesthetically I don’t think it is not that much attractive. See the following and tell me how it is.

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R || Vaataapi Ganapathim Bhaje ||

- amsharma
msakella
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#11  Postby msakella » 18 Jan 2012 14:28

Chi. Ravikiran dear,

You can see this one also:

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R ||

S R , - S R G , - S R G P , - S R G P | N , - S R G P N S | , - S R G P N S R ||

G R , - G R S , - G R S N , - G R S N | P , - G R S N P G | , - G R S N P G R || Vaataapi ||

- amsharma
msakella
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#12  Postby chitravina ravikiran » 18 Jan 2012 16:01

Akella garu,

This is uncanny indeed! The korvai you have given - even in terms of swaras - is exactly what I came up with too and have been playing in my concerts for several years! It is a very interesting one - I had used it as a teaser to many good artistes. It will appear simple and aesthetic at first level, wrong at the next level until further analysis will prove it right.

Sahana: Excellent! You have almost hit the nail on the head and also expanded upon it. Before I give a detailed answer, I will explain my rationale:

Till date, musicians of both CM and HM (and other systems that I have heard so far) have been dealing with simple arithmatic sequences. Even though much of it is 3rd/4th grade math, there is infinite scope in it and even today, it is a very exciting and rewarding area for me. So, I thought it maybe nice to explore and introduce some other sequences and see if they can be presented aesthetically too and came up with this was a sampler.

Suresh: Sorry, I am not savvy about playing it and uploading it! If I were in India, my disciples would help but I am on a concert tour in Brazil now. I am glad that VK has taken the initiative to try it out and also share it!

Is this intended to be the Fibonacci sequence?

It is intended to be similar to it though not limited to it. If it were simple Fibonacci,

(a) we'd be saddled with 1, 1, 2, 3 etc and
(b) no matter what the tala and gati, the sequence would almost be the same.

My concept is as below:

1. It is desirable to keep it to a single 1, if 1 is our starting point. The next numbers are is 2, 3 (2+1), 5 (3+2), 8 (5+3), etc.

2. The korvai can start with any number, say 3. The sequence would then be 3, 4, 7, 11, 18....
If the korvai starts with 4, the sequence is: 4, 5, 9, 14, 23 ......

This approach will give musical variety to the concept. We could perhaps call it Qualified Fibonacci (QF) sequences.

3. Finally, in large korvais with 2 or more parts, the QF sequences can be just the first part of the korvai and the second part can have conventional strong finishes.

Ex 1: Adi (2 kalais): 3, 4, 7, 11, 18 can be the first part and 3 mishrams can be the final part in say Kamalambam bhajare, Kalyani...

G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||(Kamalambam)

Ex 2: Khanda Chapu: 4, 5, 9, 14 = first part and 3x6 is final part.

G,,, - R,,,, - G || , R, S, N, D - R, || ,S,,N,,D,, || P, - GR,SND - RS || ,NDP - DP,MGR||
S,,, - R,,,, - S || , R, G, M, P - R, || ,G,,M,,P,, || D, - SR,GMP - RG || ,MPD - PD,NSR||
G,,, - R,,,, - G || , R, S, N, D - R, || ,S,,N,,D,, || P, - GR,SND - RS || ,NDP - GM,PDN|| (Guruleka)

This concept opens up a whole new world of possibilities in the music world. But only practical singing/playing can show individual korvai's concert-worthiness/limitations.
chitravina ravikiran
 
Posts: 170
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 10:30
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#13  Postby msakella » 18 Jan 2012 18:23

Chi. Ravikiran dear, Except in the ending muktayis of them I don’t find any aesthetic in the concept you have furnished. amsharma
msakella
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#14  Postby chitravina ravikiran » 18 Jan 2012 19:05

Ah, that's where the musician's skill and application come in, Akella garu. Someone of your caliber can definitely make it aesthetic. I have given just a couple of rudimentary examples. There are endless possibilities which can be explored. As I said, only practical renditions will enable one to hone in on the most aesthetic ones. At the end of the day, individual listening preferences also plays a major role.
chitravina ravikiran
 
Posts: 170
Joined: 28 Apr 2011 10:30
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#15  Postby msakella » 18 Jan 2012 19:26

Chi. Ravikiran dear, In my younger age I did so many things like this and, now, at this age I would like to conserve all my energies only to find ways and means in enlightening our kids in all respects as, in general, this has never been done by any music-teacher in the past. In this process, I feel it as my duty that some of the things of our music must be standardized possibly to make them easier to our kids. For this purpose only I have given up even my lucrative artistic career as professional-violinist and also as money swindling music-teacher right from the date of my retirement. amsharma
msakella
 
Posts: 1529
Joined: 30 Sep 2006 21:16
Location: Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh, Ind
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#16  Postby erode14 » 18 Jan 2012 23:29

Great and reminds UKS Sir's mOrA :)

thakita, thakadhina, thadhikiNathom, thadhi,kiNathom, tha,dhi,kiNathom, thakita thadhikiNathom, tha,dhi,ki,NA,thom
thaLan,gu dhintha thom,,,
thaLan,gu dhintha thom,,,
erode14
 
Posts: 712
Joined: 21 Jan 2007 21:43
Location: chennai
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#17  Postby Sivaramakrishnan » 21 Jan 2012 19:36

I join sureshvv in requesting Raviji to upload a sample!
Sivaramakrishnan
 
Posts: 369
Joined: 02 Jan 2010 08:29
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#18  Postby SahanaVasud » 22 Jan 2012 10:43

Ravikiran sir: Thanks for the details.

We can try to incorporate other integer sequences also. The natural extension from arithmetic progressions would be geometric progressions (which I, in my limited experience, have not seen used as often as arithmetic progressions), but the problem is they blow up too quickly (i.e. 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, etc, 1, 3, 9, 27, etc, and 3, 6, 12, 24 are probably the one of the only ones that are usable (even 2, 6, 18, etc. blows up quickly)). So there is less variety than arithmetic sequences. However, we can consider other additive recursive sequences (i.e. anything of the form F_n = (some linear combination (ex. F_n = aF_(n-1)+bF_(n-2)+cF_(n-3) where a, b, c are arbitrary integers) of previous terms) too, a slight generalization of Ravikiran sir's original intent. The difference between these sequences and arithmetic progressions is that the structural symmetry is much more obvious in the latter, which can lead to a perception that the former is unaesthetic.

G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||


Also, here is my attempt at the Kalyani korvai above (repeated 3 times): http://snd.sc/ySuoHV.

Sahana
SahanaVasud
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 04:33
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#19  Postby sureshvv » 22 Jan 2012 15:14

This thread is so cool :-) !!
sureshvv
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#20  Postby mahavishnu » 22 Jan 2012 21:04

Sahana, excellent korvai. I found it very aesthetically appealing as well.
also liked your inspired brigha at the end :)
mahavishnu
 
Posts: 2778
Joined: 02 Feb 2010 21:56
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#21  Postby vasanthakokilam » 22 Jan 2012 21:21

Sahana, very good. It is great to follow the notation along with your excellent singing.
The progression 3, 4, 7 and 11 produces good aesthetics. The ending 3 misrams provide the necessary familiarity which acts as a good resolution to the tension the ever increasing pUrvAngA produces.

I have a question about that middle. You have taken the 18 and split it into 3 sixes. That worked out great. I wonder how it will sound if you had sung the 18 straight, like how did the 11.
vasanthakokilam
Moderator
 
Posts: 9525
Joined: 03 Feb 2010 00:01
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#22  Postby sureshvv » 23 Jan 2012 07:23

G,, - R,,, - G,R,SND - GRSNDPMGRSN - DN,R,, G | M,D,, MD,N,, - G, R, S | ND - R,S,NDP - D,P,MGR ||


OK.. Here goes my stupid question for the day:

How are the '-'s in the above perceived when singing/playing? Do they correspond
to the tala? Would be logical but doesn't appear to be so, at least to my hearing.
sureshvv
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#23  Postby Ranganayaki » 23 Jan 2012 08:10

Phrasing marks, I believe, Suresh. They do not correspond to any length of time. It would be just a quick break to start a new phrase.

It's not a stupid question. Do you ask one each day :D?
Last edited by Ranganayaki on 23 Jan 2012 12:15, edited 1 time in total.
Ranganayaki
 
Posts: 427
Joined: 02 Jan 2011 06:23
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#24  Postby SahanaVasud » 23 Jan 2012 09:23

Thanks all for your kind words.

VK: If the 18 were sung straight, like the 11, then one cannot differentiate between the two (it would sound like 11+18=29).

sureshvv: As Ranganayaki mentioned, the - are meant to separate the korvai into parts where one can easily see the sequence.

Sahana
SahanaVasud
 
Posts: 39
Joined: 02 Jul 2006 04:33
Reputation: 0

Re: Concept korvai

#25  Postby sureshvv » 23 Jan 2012 11:06

SahanaVasud wrote:
VK: If the 18 were sung straight, like the 11, then one cannot differentiate between the two (it would sound like 11+18=29).



Not sure I agree. You can still delineate the 18 from the 11.

But I think your dividing as 3x6 is really what makes the whole thing work(sound great). So all the arithmetic is moot :-)

In fact, I hear only 7, 11, 6, 6, 6 - so the whole fibonacci thing seems retrofitted. But if that was the inspiration behind this, I think you did well to camouflage the infrastructure :-)
sureshvv
 
Posts: 1968
Joined: 05 Jul 2007 18:17
Reputation: 0

Next

Return to General Discussions

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

Reputation System ©'