H-Music

Classical Music of North India

#1  Postby rameshviyer » 20 Feb 2009 23:09

Many of the music lovers say the give more importance to C-Music rather than H-Music. I know its tough singing H-Music. Any explanation in this regard will be helpful.

Rgds,
Ramesh
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#2  Postby gobilalitha » 21 Feb 2009 15:38

Even though there is a separate thread for hm, there have been only nearly 1200 posts sofar, whereas there is overwhelming response for carnatic music, which is quite natural,because the members are interested in cm only. no music is easy or hard .Depends on the efforts by learners . gobilalitha
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#3  Postby saramati » 28 Feb 2009 11:07

True. No music is easy or hard. Nuances in all kinds of music is always effort-elastic. Personally I feel that while in Hindustani music concerts,
3 or 4 rags are dileneated in full depth and breadth. In carnatic music, we have atleast 7 or different ragams that are sung. Here, I always
wonder and admire the CM singers, when they switch from one song to the next in a different ragam in a concert, the mind has to instantly switch over to the new ragam, and its swara lakshanas. I am always awestruck at this ability of the performers.
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#4  Postby gobilalitha » 01 Mar 2009 08:06

The switch from one song to the next in a different raaga is nothing when you listen to great singers like Sri TNSeshagopalan who during a rtp sings more than 30 ragas within 10 minutes. the switch is so sudden that before yo could identify a raaga, he would have sung 2 more raagas.!!! gobilalitha
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#5  Postby chhinder » 01 Mar 2009 11:41

our music though HM or CM is the richest & we are proud of it & its traditions. Our ancient saints rishis, singers dedicated their lives & till today it is going on.
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#6  Postby pragyasitar » 02 May 2009 08:33

there shouldn't be any discrimination between cm and hm music is music. if u say many of music lovers give importance to cm, there is only one cause behind this. either hm lovers don't want to be a part of these types of discussions or they do not have any knowledge of computers .
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#7  Postby r.aruna.sri74 » 16 Jun 2009 12:25

Unlike CM HM has phenominally less lyrics most of which are in braj,bhojpuri or desi hindi and not more than two lines. Hence HM is predominantly manodharma sangita. As pragyasitar has expressed HM still happens to be posssesed by GHaranas (means family). Most of the musicians(not much educated) will teach their priced possessions only to their sons. Outsiders i.e educated people from other streams cannot learn the secrets of HM of a Gharana .But CM is more accessible .I have known some branch Gharanas coming to dead end for there were/are no learners or the teacher has been selfish not to have shared his knowledge with an outsider wheras his own sons failed to carry forward the tradition.I myself has learnt from a branch of BANARAS GHARANA which was saved in right time by gods grace thanks to my parama guru's broad mindedness. More over a person trained to sing HM if posseses adequate knowledge can easily master manodharma sangeetha in CM. CM learning is not focussed towards manodharmra at the initial stage. After singing Kalpita sangita for years together most of CM learners find kalpana sangitham as the stumbling block. But both CM and HM refer to Bharath Muni's Natya Shastra as the earliest reference. Hence it is obvious that they were together once. Too much of lyrics , objective approach, excessive dependence on vageyakaras ,lingo fenetism has made CM geographially restricted. what ever has happened in CM after Venkatmaki is only development and not improvement.Divisions and more differentiations will only make a system weak and lead to a dead end . Since HM is not lyrics dependent more foriegners attempt to learn.
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#8  Postby VK RAMAN » 17 Jun 2009 00:54

Knowledge of both HM and CM is an added advantage for manodharma sangeetha and creativity
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#9  Postby Shivadasan » 23 Jun 2009 07:46

The fact that there exist two different systems must be accepted. In each system many stalwarts have contributed in a great measure and at least for their sake the two systems should kept separate so that their contributions should be preserved for the posterity and also to enable a person to enjoy the speciality of each system.

Fighting over which system is better, which one is more spiritual etc. is more politics than anything else. Such arguments might be useful for political parties to gain mileage in a contest between North and South. For a music lover he can choose whichever he likes for whatever reason, so long as social forces do not involve themselves in working out methods for suppressing any of the systems.
r.aruna.sri74 says "Too much of lyrics , objective approach, excessive dependence on vageyakaras ,lingo fenetism has made CM geographially restricted."
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#10  Postby vasanthakokilam » 24 Jun 2009 11:29

Here is a thought experiment which will tell us how far apart the two systems are, in terms of raga, thala and performance techniques.

We can eliminate the considerations of pre-composed pieces, varnams etc. Let us also leave out the common ragas like kalyani/yaman. Let us also leave out mostly scalar ragas like Hamsadhwani.
Let us consider CM Bhairavi.
Let us consider a top ranked HM musician without any exposure to CM learn CM Bhairavi for some time under a capable CM artist. Just the raga itself and not compositions (but the raga can be learnt through the compositions but the focus is to get the raga and its nuances as practised in CM ).

Now how long do we think it will take for that person to master this enough to present a full fledged RTP concert that sounds like CM RTP?

Assuming that the two systems of music have a common base for melody and rhythm, if they had not moved that far apart, the time involved should be fairly short.

But if they had moved away further, then it will take a considerable period of time even for an accomplished artist.

The reverse scenario can be thought-experimented as well ( leaving aside considerations of voice culture etc. which can take a life time)

In both cases, where do you think the artist will have the biggest learning curve?
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#11  Postby Shivadasan » 25 Jun 2009 13:36

The English spoken by a Bengali English professor will have some special intonations which are peculiar to Bengali language. Let us assume that his English has a lot of Bengali touch. Now he gets an assignment in Cochin and wants to talk like a Kerala English professor with Malayalam accent. How long will it take for him to do it ?
Who will have the biggest learning curve, the Bengali professor trying to speak with Malayalam accent or a Kerala professor trying to talk with Bengali accent ? Both speak English , of course .
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#12  Postby vasanthakokilam » 25 Jun 2009 18:36

Shivadasan: I see where you are going with it. That is a good way of thinking about it. I structured my thought experiment in a specific way to understand how far apart the two systems are. Question is, how close your language 'accent' analogy it is to CM and HM? I do not want to over-simplify things....
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#13  Postby Shivadasan » 26 Jun 2009 14:06

It would not be wrong to say that the present day CM has evolved out of the sahithyas of the great composers. South Indians have a way of intonation which is unique to the region. I have heard some North Indians making fun of the way speak, for instance, the word ‘coffee’ addressed as ‘Kaaapi’. This unique intonation appears to permeate our music too because it is emotion oriented and singer brings in this intonations to depict emotion. This has added a charm to our music but only we can appreciate it.

In HM there were no sahithyas to bring in this effect. So the music has a different ‘colour’ than our CM. It may not be possible for a North Indian to sing CM correctly unless he imbibes our culture completely.

If we analyse CM and HM systematically we would know at each every step northern accents are so different from CM approach. Even how say Sa or Pa would differ. I do not have any practical knowledge of music, but I would however try to explain. In CM we always add a little ornamentation when we sing plain notes. You may use a jaru or gamakam when the plain notes are rendered. They do not use such ornamentations. They would use the Hindi pronounciations like Dhha, Ghha, etc with emphasis . for the notes Dha and Ga. Instead of Ri they would say Ray.

We know that certain families from north living for generations in south still have not yet mastered Tamil. You can make out they are not from this region. Same will be the case with a North Indian singing CM. You will find something lacking somewhere.
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#14  Postby vasanthakokilam » 27 Jun 2009 07:36

Shivadasan: Good development on this thesis. Let us develop it further. Objective is still the same. This is to get an idea on how close or far the two systems really are and in what ways.

For the Bhairavi RTP let us pick a sanskrit line so the sahitya language accents are not noticeable. Assume the way of saying 'ri' vs 'rE' are ironed out. Where is the biggest learning curve? Is it the numerous ornamentations, gamakas and kampitas of CM Bhairavi? Are such techniques alien to HM? How about the learning curve on the laya side to pull off the RTP?
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#15  Postby Shivadasan » 27 Jun 2009 08:15

Dear Vasantakokilam
I wish I was musician. I perceive everything but unable to translate it in the terminology of musicology. If some musician had the aptitude for research they would have done all this earlier and there would not be any need for us to discuss such things.

Many gamakas and movements of CM are not in HM. Similarly the swara movements in HM if used in CM the whole raga swaroopa would be spoiled. We tend to encourage HM musician singing CM ragas in HM style in spite of the fact the raga gets distorted. What do we call it ? Tolerance or disrespect for CM ?

I have found that most musical phrases in CM are ‘aarohi’ , i.e., swaras are upward bound. With a majority of phrases in aarohi our music has brightness and an element of happiness. Whereas in HM they love coming down on a swara and resting in it. These avarohi patterns are predominant in HM. It is very useful for exposition of pathos.

But there is an area where both systems are very similar. As a young student I was tinkering with recordings in the Grundig tape recorder. There were two speeds available. After hearing SSI’s recording I just tried listening it in the lower speed. It could not be distinguished from a HM exposition ! It was a revelation to me that slow speed is one that can bring both system closer to the listener.
Shivadasan
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#16  Postby arasi » 27 Jun 2009 09:08

Shivadasan,
Your Grundig experiment says something! We do not hear long vilambit passages in CM. The kutcEri format with the large number of uruppaDis presented in CM is the reason.

What you mention about ArOhaNam versus avarOhaNAm dominating the two systems is one of the reasons perhaps for the mood of either liveliness or emotive rumination in each system.
I am wondering. Is that why when we are young, we are drawn more to HM instrumental music than to CM instruments? Atleast, that was the case with me.
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#17  Postby coolkarni » 27 Jun 2009 09:36

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#18  Postby Shivadasan » 28 Jun 2009 07:25

Coolji had said so many things without saying them in so many specific words. Perhaps he indicates that there are more opportunities in HM for creativity than in CM. if so it is very true. In a car journey you can stop at any place swim in a river, stand under a water falls , lay down on the grass and watch the nature, listen to the birds etc. etc., Not Possible in a train journey. Car journey takes a long time but gives more opportunities for enjoyment.
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#19  Postby vasanthakokilam » 28 Jun 2009 09:44

Yes, indeed. Thanks cool! There is a lof there to think about. I think I know why Cool created that analogy though I do not know much about the intricacies of HM. Cool is uniquely
qualified to come up with such superb and appropriate metaphors.

Now how do I fit in my RTP thought experiment to figure out how far the two systems are fundamentally. Cool's analogy seems to
address the performance and development aspects of a HM concert vs a CM concert which fits in nicely with my RTP thinking since the two systems converge to
some extent on those two aspects at the RTP. ( railway traffic point ;) )

One obvious implication is that it should be a piece of cake for a HM musician to learn to sing an RTP in CM Bhairavi. But I am still curious if the gamakas and laya may be the high learning
curve. Not that I know they are but if they are, that will tell us about the accumulated evolutionary differences between the two. ( The reverse has to be analyzed too )
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#20  Postby coolkarni » 28 Jun 2009 11:53

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#21  Postby gobilalitha » 28 Jun 2009 14:56

COOLJI,I take it as a fitting reply to me for very often deriding hm greats about their fat cheques for a handful of raagas. HERCULEAN EFFORTto sing hansdwani for 72 minutes wihout repeating a phrase gobilalitha
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#22  Postby Shivadasan » 28 Jun 2009 15:22

I remember Thakur Jaidev Singh talking about one of the greatest beenkar whom he met in Rampur (or Lucknow) . Thakursaheb asked the beenkar how many ragas did he know. The beenkar replied that he was acquainted with many ragas but really knew only four or five. Out of them there was only one which he could say he knew. That was Raga Pilu. Thakur was surprised at his reply and wanted to hear the only raga he knew. In matter of minutes there were copious tears in Thakursaheb's eyes. He had never heard such melodious music before and doubted whether he would be able hear such music again !
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#23  Postby Kanti Dattani » 29 Jun 2009 14:35

Hi coolkarni

>>you write ' .......Have you listened to a 72 minute commercial album of Kishori Amonkar in
Hamsadhwani. A classic for many reasons.......<<

Do you mean her 74.10 minutes Haunsadhwani (as spelled in the cd cover) in BMG CRESCENDO CD 50892, title Kishori Amonkar Excels? If not, please let me know the details of 72 minutes version. I would like to buy it. Thanks.

Kanti
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#24  Postby coolkarni » 29 Jun 2009 14:51

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#25  Postby coolkarni » 29 Jun 2009 15:31

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