Balamuralikrishna

Carnatic Musicians

#26  Postby venkatpv » 19 Feb 2006 23:03

sivaraman,
maybe u can tone down ur remarks about the great BMK... he is great, no doubt..but what u r doing is fanaticism...
coolkarni is as good a rasika as one can ever find.. and WE WILL stand up for coolkarni, he is a great man!!! especially bcos he did no wrong... his comments were absolutely not an insult to BMK
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#27  Postby Sivaraman » 19 Feb 2006 23:20

venkatpv,
I could say that your attitude of defending Coolkarni amounts to rabid fanaticism.I have written nothing which needs to be toned down.I was only trying to defend a great musician about whom cheap words were used.I have never disputed about coolkarni being a rasika, great or otherwise.You are at liberty to stand up for him till the cows come home.
And as I said earlier, if coolkarni did'nt mean any insult to BMK, let him express this in his own words, instead of others defending him.
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#28  Postby jayachAmarAja » 19 Feb 2006 23:31

could say that your attitude of defending Coolkarni amounts to rabid fanaticism

My point about this forum's bias against BMK is borne out by your snide remarks about his ability to sing Mukhari

I have never in my life tried to hurt the feeling of fellow rasikas

really ??

venkatpv, i think it is futile talking to the likes of Mr.Sivaraman, who simply cannot even start to comprehend Mr. Kulkarni's magnanimity. I normally don't participate much, but his rudeness is rather annoying !

This clearly reveals that most of these forum members suffer from an Andhra bias,

This in a completely unwarranted reply to a "comparison" with Nedanuri.. now where you do think Nedanuri is from ?? Zululand ??

could say that your attitude of defending Coolkarni amounts to rabid fanaticism

and that would make your attitude what ??
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#29  Postby Sivaraman » 20 Feb 2006 00:32

jayachAmarAja,
Your words:
I normally don't participate much, but his rudeness is rather annoying !

1. I do not understand why certain members of this forum have to start trading insults with me, when there is a healthy debate about a subject.JC, do you think use of the word "fanaticism" to describe my defense of the great musician BMK was correct? My response was prompted by this rudeness on the part of the concerned member.
And pray, do you think your own letter is very civil and courteous in it's tone, when you yourself are accusing me of rudeness?Where is my rudeness in trying to defend a great musician, whom I and a legion of fans hold in very high esteem?
2.JC, why do you have to insult me with rude words, when I have no quarrel with you?
3.I have never cast aspersions on Coolkarni as a person.He may be very magnanimous in his contributions to this forum.I am not disputing this.You people are entitled to stand up for him for what he has contributed.Even I respect him for his contributions.But does that entitle him or others like you to insult a great musician and my defense of him by calling me a fanatic.?
Now tell me who is being rude and annoying.
3. You have taken my use of the words," Andhra bias" out of context. Nowhere did I use it in the context of discussing NK.The "andhra bias" was used in the context of tamilians in general( I myself am a tamilian) trying to ignore andhra musicians and giving them the due recognition they are entitled to.You do not have to tell me where NK and other great musicians like Voleti,Nookula, Chittibabu,Emany etc. hail from.I fully well know they are not from zululand.
The andhra bias of this forum is my personal opinion based on the lack of space given to great musicians from Andhra like BMK, either in the discussions or in the posting of krithis/
4.And the comparison between BMK and NK itself was unwarranted, since both are eminent artistes, and BMK need not be derided to say that NK sings mukahari better.And anyway, this is a subjective opinion of one rasika, and I have already used the latin phrase "De gustibus non est disputandum" ( there is no disputing about tastes) in another thread, to describe the subjective nature of music appreciation.
5.Please let us keep this debate healthy and civil, without trading insults.
I just wanted Coolkarni to assert that he meant no insult to the great BMK and close the chapter on this debate which I do not want to take any further ugly turns, the way it is being twisted and cheapened by certain members like you, with whom, I repeat, I have no personal quarrel.
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#30  Postby srkris » 20 Feb 2006 01:56

Sivaramanji,

Please continue with your posts on Dr. BMK. This is a thread dedicated to him, and I hope to see more nice stuff not only of Dr BMK, but also of all other Andhra artistes whom you feel have been ignored. Please start your threads for each artiste separately.

I dont think anyone needs to ask apology from anyone else. Everyone is entitled to their views, sarcastic or otherwise. Coolkarni is a respected friend and contributor, and we all know he is upto no sarcasm or insult. I know he wont clarify anything because there is no need to - he is very well entitled to his own views, whatever they are.

Thanks & Regards.
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#31  Postby Sivaraman » 20 Feb 2006 02:32

srkris,
Many thanks for restoring some sanity into this thread, which was threatening to turn ugly with personal insults on my views about the Great BMK, whom I consider an alltime great in the field of CM.
I neither seek nor expect any apology from Coolkarni.Neither does a great artiste like BMK likely to be affected by criticism from various quarters for his revolutionary trail blazing and creative contributions to the field of CM.
I have already made it clear that everybody is entitled to their own opinion as to choice of their favourite artistes, including Coolkarni and other members of this forum.
By the same token I expect members of this forum to show me some respect as a senior citizen and an ardent lover of carnatic music, who is also entitled to his views about andhra artistes in general and about BMK in particular.There is no cause for some members to portray me as a fanatic and rude man, just because I chose to put up a staunch defense of the legendary BMK.
I have no bones to pick with Coolkarni at a personal level.I also respect and admire him for his contributions.But it hurts me when certain members indulge in a verbal abusive slanging match for just trying to express my views about the Great BMK whom I admire.
Anyway, let me thank you once again profusely for taking an objective view of my posts. Please count on me for any help you require in running this very purposeful forum.
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#32  Postby jayachAmarAja » 20 Feb 2006 06:37

Mr. Sivaraman, while srkris has posted very tactfully/sensibly and there seems to be not much point in prolonging this argument, i will respond to your last post addressed to me.

(i) you ask me why i cannot be courteous while i demand it of you.. i was asking you the same question.. you cannot be strident in your tone and expect others to be civil.. please go back and you will see who was rude in the first place..

But does that entitle him or others like you to insult a great musician

(ii) Mr. Kulkarni made a statement which to most people i am sure sounded a compliment to BMK, but no, to you, it was a "left-handed" one.. in other words, this was a *complete non-issue* unless u made it one.. There was numerous posts saying Mr. Kulkarni wasn't being insulting to anyone, which you deliberately chose to ignore. No one was stepping in to "defend" Mr. Kulkarni.. he is one person here who needs no defending... besides, as i said, at no time was he rude, and this is a COMPLETE non-issue.. if i spoke out against you, just as i am sure venkatpv did, it was not to defend him, but out of righteous indignation..

I just wanted Coolkarni to assert that he meant no insult to the great BMK

I neither seek nor expect any apology from Coolkarni.

(iii) these atatements appear mutually contradictory..

Please let us keep this debate healthy and civil, without trading insults.

yes, let us please..


srkris has rightly suggested a more constructive approach in his opening paragraph. If you were to inititate a discussion, I am sure you will quickly find that most people here are far more open-minded than u give them/us credit for.
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#33  Postby coolkarni » 20 Feb 2006 09:09

Things move quite fast in these forums , dont they.
I once heard a psychologist remark Thus:

" Hate , the moment it is expressed , is taken at full value .Never doubted for a second.But Love , when expressed is not treated the same way.This is for the simple reason that To Love means to keep going back to the source and discover it again and again. Whether it is a marriage or a faith One has to keep up the process of discovery again and again. hate is a onetime affair , Love is a Lifelong commitment"

or words to this effect.

But let me quickly go though with my apologies To Sivraman.
Yes I was probably not very correct in using the word Trick in my post.I can understand that it does give rise to a suspicion.But if you had read my opening post on this thread you would have given me a benefit of doubt.
OR better if you had read my posts where I argued against the discussion of Nonmusical aspects in the Kalyanraman thread , You would not need a reference to third umpire at all.
So this should calm you down , folks.
I will be a bit more careful , hereafter.
Sivraman (and other newcomers)
Here is something for your records
1.Quite early in life I was trained to be a good rasika , and part of that training included listening to even the lesser known singers.
2.I have one of the largest collections of
a)Balmuarli-audios and videos (and I thank Raju Asokan and Krishna Balantrapu for these)
b)GNB-MLV-Kalyanraman(and I have to thank Rajasekhar for these)
c) Somu (and I thank Raju asokan for these)
d) TRS (and I thank his disciple Delhi Muthukumar for these)

and I can Go on and on ... with all artists.

Thanjavur Sankara Iyer used to very playfully request me if I would decide to become his student.He used to project me(to his students) as the ideal preparatory stuff , because I used to listen to 5-6 hours every day -Top quality music.
Never finding a way to stop him , I finally took my chance with a Question
Sir, If I do decide to become your student ,do you guarantee that I will be able to enjoy EACH AND EVERY MUSICIAN the way I do now .
He thought for a while and said "I take back my request.You do have a point.Let things be as they are'
So you see Sivraman , I have very carefully nurtured my ability to be objective and enjoy music the way I want to.

My Point is that I share, upload and discuss purely as a committed rasika and I do not bring any of my personal views on music here.I have some of my own views on BMK but for that FOR THAT I INVITE YOU TO MY HOME IN CHENNAI , ANYTIME YOU WISH.
I will guarantee you that you will have to drag your feet when you leave my Home.
Param will give you a first hand report if you wish.
Or better a set of my complete Balmurali collection , if you wish.One look at the careful work that has gone into its compiling, all your anger will vanish!!!
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#34  Postby coolkarni » 20 Feb 2006 11:43

My first response was made in a hurry as I did not want to lose time.
Even minutes could be a matter of Life and Death for me !!! (as a forum member)
It is only now that I have been able to read all the posts.
And I am simply aghast at the reactions.
I beseech all of you -in future-to let a few days pass before you come to judgements.
Srkris.If those three bits of sweet advice on "forum-behaviour" that pop up first are only because of my post , please remove them.They will always be an ugly reminder to me.I extend my hand -knuckles upwards-yet again,for my punishment.
CML-Venkatpv-JC Sorry I put you all through this.You see BMK's smile -to me-has always been a personification of an "Impish smile ' .And Imps as we know are lovely creatures.That was what probably led me to use the words trick.
By the way Sivraman , did you notice the giggles / laughter during the rendering .That is the way it is with BMK.The purist may never understand the need for humour in a carnatic concert .Or why , one can even watch the BMK-Bhimsen Video which was put up on my behalf.
In other words I would have never dared to use this word with a Ariakudi Track or a MS Track.
(though the dictionary allows me to use it in the sense of
A special skill; a knack
A convention or specialized skill peculiar to a particular field of activity
A deceptive or illusive appearance; an illusion

But I will let this be buried , right now and here )

As far as lineage is concerned , I have a very interesting story to tell .A story that started with Sankara Iyers attempt to pry into my lineage(he was fascinated that a chap coming from the Hindusthani belt could LOVE CM so dearly.)I never knew much of it because my dad was born an Orphan and grew up with his OLD (maternal)Grandmother .But as i kept getting bits and pieces from my father and transmitting it, he taught me a great lesson : "Boy" he would say
"That I am connected to infinity one way is definite because I exist.It is such a wonderful thought.My own tryst with infinity the other way , my Boy I am not sure.All that matters to me is that you are an important part of that link .You are what you are with whatever you can absorb from all the four directions...Take as much as you can from me"
Nothing fanciful , Nothing Royal , Nothing exciting ... but he made my lineage a responsibility to me ..
As many friends confide to me privately, visits to these forums are such Lessons in Life .And It should remain that way.And I would be the last person to make it murky.
SO Srkris, Pleeease remove those guidelines.
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#35  Postby kaumaaram » 20 Feb 2006 14:20

kaumaaram,
Thank you for acknowledging BMK's greatness.............Why don't you write to BMK and get this fact clarified,instead of harbouring a suspicion regarding his intentions, while refusing the award?
Sivaraman.

Namaskar Sivaraman.

I respect your views. I will do so, as and when an opportunity presents itself. I am glad that you have been able to clarify this point. I trust and value your information. But we here in Tamil Nadu have learnt a bit too far to understand that media reports are not to be totally relied upon - there is a marked shift from reporting the correct version to reporting only sensational news. I have learnt this yet again.

The TATAs had a slogan sometime back :"We encourage dissension". That in turn leads to creativity. Similarly, it justifies the free and fair view that an employee could have in an organisation. Drawing a simulation from this, I am sure that you will definitely appreciate the fact that the views of other members in this forum are not necessarily inimical either to the development or to the reputation of the artist. I am not here to correct anyone, but let me state that we must accept brickbats and bouquets in the same spirit.

I have been with this forum for quite sometime now, but I do not find any "bias" on the grounds of nativity, in any form whatsoever. So let us not bring in some extraneous dimensions and prejudices lest it should drive us to oblivion of being an Indian first.


Cheers

Kaumaaram
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#36  Postby srkris » 20 Feb 2006 14:31

Coolkarniji,

No, certainly those guidelines at the top were not aimed at you. They were general and particularly for the new members who might not have an idea of this forum. Please see [link=http://freepgs.com/carnatic/viewtopic.php?id=254]this thread[/link].

If you still feel they are not necessary, I can remove them.
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#37  Postby cmlover » 20 Feb 2006 20:57

Coolkarni

You carefully avoided giving the "British" meaning of the word 'tricks'. If you don't know DRS should be able to educate you. Once my english friend couldn't contain his laughter when I told him that a certain sales girl tricked me. Thereafter I am very careful about using the term in polite company going to the extent of even saying that we were entertained by 'prestidigital manipulations' than saying simple 'magic tricks' ;-)

Any way next time you meet the Chevalier keep that wicked wink off your face and put on the natural cherubic coolkarni look as you ask 'How's tricks?'.
;-) ;-) ;-)
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#38  Postby rshankar » 20 Feb 2006 23:55

A tempest in a tea-cup! I thought that we were being sheltered here, but I guess I was mistaken.
I like Kulkarni sa'ab's attitude: I once said that to post on these bulletin boards, one needs to have skin that is one part rhinoceros hide and 3 parts armored plate. I feel that there is NO NEED to respond to each and every post. Everyone is entitled to their views. I do think we have to be charitable and give everyone the benefit of the doubt. After all, this is purely voluntary and ALL of us appreciate the time/effort/energy/expense that stalwarts like Chembai, Kulkarni sa'ab, CML, DRS, Lji, Meena, RC (to mention ONLY A FEW) have invested in keeping this an educational forum. While dissention maybe healthy to the TATAs, it certainly pollutes the atmosphere here.
As a request, if any member, current or future finds that we have 'ignored' someone of merit, please post information/tracks etc on the artist in question. If people are intersted, they will read, post and participate. Like CML said somewhere else, if it is 'thEn', the bees will come automatically.
Another request: the best way to make an issue a non-issue is to ignore it.
Thanks.
Ravi
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#39  Postby cmlover » 21 Feb 2006 00:34

At least now I have a better perspective on the raging 'cartoon controversy'!
lOkO bhinna ruci (De gustibus non est disputandum )(meena FYI ;-))
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#40  Postby meena » 21 Feb 2006 01:17

cml

latin no prob. but french i'm more at home :) :)
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#41  Postby new_cmfan » 21 Feb 2006 01:20

CML - You are a wise man. I really enjoy your posts - particularly your one-liners in sanskrit - unfortunately, i have to find the meaning of the words in order to understand those gems; would you be kind enough to write the meanings right after you type something in sanskrit? This is akin to your request for notation from DRS :) - hope you will indulge me.
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#42  Postby cmlover » 21 Feb 2006 05:02

tathAstu (be it so)!
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#43  Postby coolkarni » 21 Feb 2006 13:34

cml

<<Any way next time you meet the Chevalier keep that wicked wink off your face and put on the natural cherubic coolkarni look as you ask 'How's tricks?>>

i refuse to get dragged further .right now i am feeling like that young brother of the heroine natasha (in war and peace) who rushes to the war in fanciful glory after dreaming about it for years .
and as the first bullets start whizzing past him , he starts exclaiming:

WHY ? THEY ARE SHOOTING AT ME ?!!!
ME , WHOM EVERYONE LOVES ?""

i am doing parihara by listening to bmk -non stop -to get this thing out of my system.
and i promise.i will remain silent here about this artist for a long long time.
bmk tracks i may post (until somebody sees a sarcasm there ) but words or sentences or paragraphs..never.

Srkris.
No need to remove the guidelines..
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#44  Postby vasanthakokilam » 21 Feb 2006 13:48

WHY ? THEY ARE SHOOTING AT ME ?!!!
ME , WHOM EVERYONE LOVES ?""

LOL...

and what an appropriate story you picked....I am still grinning...

and you have to trust me on this one, just as we were coming back from the grocery store a couple of hours back, we were listening to Mooladhara Murthy by BMK...A very nice rendition indeed... enjoyed it very much... I did not think of it as 'parihara' but now that you put it that way, I say 'tathAstu'. ( is that a right usage, CML? )
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#45  Postby kaumaaram » 21 Feb 2006 17:45

Srkris,

I believe that you may remove the guidelines. This would be in line with your wish that the members may express their opinions in a free and fair manner.

Kaumaaram.
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#46  Postby drshrikaanth » 21 Feb 2006 17:51

Expressing in a free and fair manner is not the same as saying whatever comes to mind. The "fair"ness is important. Civility is a must even in free speech. Let the guidelines be. It does not offend anyone as far as I can see. I think it serves a useful purpose- a gentle reminder.
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#47  Postby Mahesh » 21 Feb 2006 20:09

I'm listening to his MA 1967 concert, can someone let me know the accompanists please?

The list is as follows.

Sree Ganpathe
Palllukavami ra
Varanarada
Samajavaragamana
Enthamudu
Budhiradu
Slokam
Varaneela
Sheerasagara
Pavanastuthi
Mangalam

Many thanks.
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#48  Postby cmlover » 21 Feb 2006 22:24

Not so fast coolkarni!
The day you stop discussing (including BMK) is the day CML loses his voice too! We don't want you to be a postman here! For fear of mosquitoes would you quit your home!

"asArE khalu saMsArE sAraM shItakarNa prapancanaM
upadaMshaM nAsticEt kiM phalaM dadhyanna bhOjanaM"

(In this monotonous (web) world the intersting thing is the expatiations by cookarni(shItakarNa). What use is curd rice (music) without pickles(the lovely anecdotes and recollections of Kji)
(sorry could not really capture the spirit in English!
En ce monde monotone (les Web)) la chose intersting est les expatiations par le cookarni(shItakarNa). Quelle utilisation est riz de lait caillé (musique) sans pickles (beaux anecdotes et souvenirs de Kji)
(Is that better ;-)
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#49  Postby Sivaraman » 22 Feb 2006 00:56

Coolkarni,
First and foremost accept my apologies to you also for any intemperate words I might have used in defense of my idol, the great Dr.Balamuralikrishna,whose music has inspired me for the last four decades of my 67 years of existence.We are all human beings and at times our emotions lead us to chose the wrong words, which may, unintentionally hurt others.If my words have hurt you, I withdraw them and am sorry for the same.

It was the Bard of Avon, who said: " If Music be the Food of Love, Play on, Play on"
And Music, Carnatic Music particularly, should not be the cause of so much of heat and hatred, since Divinity is the Soul of CM and it should be the harbinger of Love and Universal Brotherhood.It is sad that I seem to be isolated in this forum for defending a great musician's music, which is close to my heart, with various members pouncing on me and insulting and humiliating me.
I now wish to end this controversy here and now by offering to quit this forum, if the administrator and other members feel that I am not welcome anymore for expressing my views
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#50  Postby vasanthakokilam » 22 Feb 2006 01:31

Sivaramanji, I for one do not want you to feel isolated and for sure do not want you to quit this forum. Your contributions to this forum are already enormous. As srkris mentioned in his posting, you are most welcome in expressing your views.
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